Sorry, no cell tower at 6Y9

el con

Line Up and Wait
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The Flied Piper
As some of you may have known,we were approached by Verizon to put a cell tower at 6Y9. After a request and an appeal the FAA has turned it down as a Navigational Hazard.
The area is getting other towers but the coverage will be spotty on the field according to their coverage maps. The income would have been nice for the field also.
We were hoping we could improve communications for pilot's and the community,but we did not succeed .
I am going to look into a small antennae tower that is below the FAA rules(146ft) and try and come up with something that pilots could patch into.
Anybody know what might work for this?
 
We use one of these inside our concrete / rebar bunker of a data center to get signals from inside the building outside the building.

http://www.criterioncellular.com/repeaters/cellular-repeater-cm.html

Would that work outside? I'd think so, but Scott Migaldi would probably know for sure.
It could work very well. I know several similar repeater installations that do what your are proposing. Sometimes even the carriers will deploy repeaters to fill signal gaps.


I should add that the price of that thing is really reasonable!! Not being sarcastic. The commercial grade repeaters are far more expensive.
 
I should add that the price of that thing is really reasonable!! Not being sarcastic. The commercial grade repeaters are far more expensive.

That it is. But I also note that it's only 850 MHz band - some of the commercial stuff is dual/multi band
 
Most of the carriers have "micro-cells" these days, for individual users. You might approach their engineering group and ask if one could be configured for multiple users, if there's already "high-speed" Internet access on-site.

If you do go with one of those "repeaters" be aware that most deployments of those are illegal, since you're not the FCC license holder for those bands, and you're transmitting on their frequencies... work with the carriers on those. Never seen anyone get slapped with the full FCC fine yet, but that's worst-case scenario. $10K and up.

The carriers, as someone else mentioned, can deploy repeaters or other gear on their frequencies if they choose. They often cause other problems with their network, even if they make your problem go away. :)

And all of the above... means one for Verizon, one for AT&T... at a minimum... Sprint and T-Mobile probably get left out in the cold, unless you're buying gear for those too. (And in some areas, but it's area-dependent, roaming across VZ/Sprint and AT&T/T-Mo happens, but not very often. Only in very rural areas. Usually where a 3rd party actually owns/operates the local towers.

If you've already been in touch with Verizon, continue that process... ask them without the tower they proposed, how the airport can be adequately covered. At the other carriers, you'll have to reach the Engineering department to get anywhere with it.
 
Brad,

I didn't even know you were working on getting a cell tower at 6Y9. It's sad that it couldn't be worked out, but, Thanks so much for attempting it!

Melissa
 
Hi Missa! Here's to you. :D:cheerswine:
 

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Most of the carriers have "micro-cells" these days, for individual users. You might approach their engineering group and ask if one could be configured for multiple users, if there's already "high-speed" Internet access on-site.

If you do go with one of those "repeaters" be aware that most deployments of those are illegal, since you're not the FCC license holder for those bands, and you're transmitting on their frequencies... work with the carriers on those. Never seen anyone get slapped with the full FCC fine yet, but that's worst-case scenario. $10K and up.

The carriers, as someone else mentioned, can deploy repeaters or other gear on their frequencies if they choose. They often cause other problems with their network, even if they make your problem go away. :)

And all of the above... means one for Verizon, one for AT&T... at a minimum... Sprint and T-Mobile probably get left out in the cold, unless you're buying gear for those too. (And in some areas, but it's area-dependent, roaming across VZ/Sprint and AT&T/T-Mo happens, but not very often. Only in very rural areas. Usually where a 3rd party actually owns/operates the local towers.

If you've already been in touch with Verizon, continue that process... ask them without the tower they proposed, how the airport can be adequately covered. At the other carriers, you'll have to reach the Engineering department to get anywhere with it.

I'm thinkin' Nate just committed to attending 6Y9 this year so he can "inspect" the existing infrastructure...
 
I'm thinkin' Nate just committed to attending 6Y9 this year so he can "inspect" the existing infrastructure...

Heh... I "retired" from RF work... kinda. I was President of the Colorado Repeater Association an Amateur Radio club with a lot of VHF and UHF gear on top of some of the mountains along the Front Range here... a couple of years ago.

http://www.w0cra.org/

A "site survey" is what the industry would call this. Professionals would have the location of the nearest towers, and plot the RF path for the repeater back to one of them via computer, these days. In the "good ol' days", you'd bring a topo map and a compass, and aim the antenna for peak signal strength.

Non-professionals like me would show up, look at the stuff available, and maybe try to hack something together. As long as the cellular company said it was ok. The problem is that I won't put the few FCC licenses I hold at risk by placing something on-air without written permission from the frequency holder that they're okaying it.

E-mails are flying (no pun intended) right now internally in the Amateur Radio group since one of our more popular radio repeater systems on an 11,440' MSL peak (known by us for decades as "Squaw Mountain", political correctness has taken over and most maps now say "Chief Mountain") has decided to go Tango Uniform, and it's the middle of winter. It doesn't even key up. And they always choose the dead of winter to die, per Murphy's Law.

The two mile or so USFS 4WD road is usually completely impassible this time of year, two or three feet deep in snow at the light spots. I've seen remnants of winter snow on the road up there in July, some years. Its nice to be up there in July. It's miserable now.

Last time this happened, I coordinated with a guy who owned a snowmobile to take our tech the last two miles up the Forest Service access road. The tech fell off the back, luckily into deep powder, and only his pride was hurt. (And also lucky the 50 lb VHF power amplifier in his backpack which probably gave him a CG problem to start with, on the back of the snowmobile, wasn't injured in the fall either.) I was sitting at the bottom of the USFS road in my Jeep, monitoring all this "fun" on my hand-held radio and thinking about how ****ed his wife would be if he ended up at a hospital that night, or worse... how much she'd sue us for if he had serious injuries. The joys of being Club President. White hair, mostly.

I still sit on the Board of that organization and am trying not to volunteer for anything other than "decision-making" these days. I'm not a very good BoD member, but all outgoing Presidents are offered a Board seat.

This old fire tower up there used to be the highest continually manned USFS facility, decades ago:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=4c6deea9-1d41-4550-9880-c2a1b600fedd

It's about 40 feet higher than the radio building (which is the old stone house the firewatch person lived in, last lived in sometime around the early 1980's...) and on the national historic register now, I believe. Boarded up, just sits there, looking out over Denver. Great view.

Anyway... it was either Amateur Radio or Flying when I got back into Aviation, and there wasn't anywhere near time enough to do both. Not and stay current/safe in Aviation, anyway. My time had to be spent at the airport, instead.

One local Amateur has his PP-Helicopter rating but doesn't fly, and he has commercial radio interests at some of the mountain-top radio sites. A couple of years ago, he managed to turn that into a JetRanger ride to a site to fix the broken stuff that made money... with his old CFI, but none of the Amateur gear makes a dime. Most clubs run on a shoestring budget.

http://www.rmham.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=53

The site in those photos, is Mt. Thorodin -- which is about 1000' MSL lower than Squaw, and 10-12 miles north, as the crow flies. Via roads, it'd take three hours minimum in summer weather, with awful 4WD roads at both ends to get between them. Probably closer to 4 hours.

http://www.rmham.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=53

American Tower built the building and facility up there a couple decades ago. Prior to that, the mountain was covered with all sorts of little make-shift buildings and towers, all lugged up there by dedicated souls with 4WD vehicles in the summertime. One club had coordinated the COANG to fly their tower and a small building/hut up there underneath a Chinook for "training purposes" and goodwill to the community, but the USFS cancelled all land leases when AT built the building, and requires everyone to be in their building now, at exorbitant rates. The few Amateur organizations still up there are "grandfathered" and their gear is stuffed into what used to be a kitchen in the building. (Whoever thought a kitchen was necessary up there, was a little daft, back during the original construction of the building.)

RF toys and radios are a fun hobby if you have a good 4WD vehicle, and some radio know-how, and a lot of summer-time weekends with nothing to do. My summer-time weekends have to be spent flying 79M to keep the hourly cost down! :D

These days, I'd be more inclined to help out Colorado CAP and their Communications folks work on these types of mountain-top systems than Amateurs, mostly because CAP has a budget and a mission for their systems. Not saying the Amateur side isn't fun, but I'm putting my hat in the ring with the groups I'm involved with in Aviation as part of our Aviation community before spending time at the Amateur sites. Just a priorities thing.
 
I'm thinkin' Nate just committed to attending 6Y9 this year so he can "inspect" the existing infrastructure...
Hey Clark ,I think you're right ,sign him up!
Biggest thing this year is to hope for better weather.
Although we did have this one pilot from Colorado that did make it out in the soup, I think he said his secret was formation flying with ducks:wink2:
 
Oh yeah, forgot.

I hear Dave S. needs some radio/tech geeks to volunteer to help out at Sun 'N' Fun Radio this year.

I'm tempted, but schedule is looking tight for that week already...
 
There will be 3 new ATT towers, Covington,Kenton and Bruce Crossing ,spanning 52 miles. 3 tall towers.Their coverage map show poor coverage aroung SidnawThe new verizon towers 5 shorter towers ,Covington,Watton,was to be Sidnaw, Kenton, Bruce Crossing ,spanning 52 miles.
Guess we will see what the coverage is like when they all get up and running.
If we could get some kind of inexpensive hook up at the field that would be nice.
 
Hey Clark ,I think you're right ,sign him up!
Biggest thing this year is to hope for better weather.
Although we did have this one pilot from Colorado that did make it out in the soup, I think he said his secret was formation flying with ducks:wink2:

Duck and Cat IFR is an ancient and renowned technique 'though few practice it these days...
 
There will be 3 new ATT towers, Covington,Kenton and Bruce Crossing ,spanning 52 miles. 3 tall towers.Their coverage map show poor coverage aroung SidnawThe new verizon towers 5 shorter towers ,Covington,Watton,was to be Sidnaw, Kenton, Bruce Crossing ,spanning 52 miles.
Guess we will see what the coverage is like when they all get up and running.
If we could get some kind of inexpensive hook up at the field that would be nice.
That is the best idea. The simple solutions are few when you are just not in a place where there isn't enough signal. Some temporary kludges are possible but anything more permanent and people will notice. That means bureaucracy. I am happy to talk offline about some ideas.
 
Brad FWIW, I kind of like the isolation at 6Y9 and personally relish the inability to be reached ( annoyed ) on my cell phone. The ONLY reason for some communications would be for Wx. Be well!!
 
Brad FWIW, I kind of like the isolation at 6Y9 and personally relish the inability to be reached ( annoyed ) on my cell phone. The ONLY reason for some communications would be for Wx. Be well!!

Adam, your phone has this nifty button that generates the same effect. It's labeled "off".

I for one wanted to thank Brad for his efforts. While his strip is a wonderful little getaway, I myself feel the need to call my spouse to let her know I've arrived. I don't like the thought of her not knowing whether or not I'm alive for a couple days. Moreover, if I did go down en route, no one would know. I can't file a flight plan with no way to close it (VFR flight plans have to be closed by phone) and during my last trip up I couldn't dependably get flight following due to some recurrent transponder issues. Last but not least, if someone does have maintenance issues or lands in an emergency, there is no way to contact anyone.

Thanks again. Sorry it's turned out to be such a PITA.
 
Adam, your phone has this nifty button that generates the same effect. It's labeled "off".

I for one wanted to thank Brad for his efforts. While his strip is a wonderful little getaway, I myself feel the need to call my spouse to let her know I've arrived. I don't like the thought of her not knowing whether or not I'm alive for a couple days. Moreover, if I did go down en route, no one would know. I can't file a flight plan with no way to close it (VFR flight plans have to be closed by phone) and during my last trip up I couldn't dependably get flight following due to some recurrent transponder issues. Last but not least, if someone does have maintenance issues or lands in an emergency, there is no way to contact anyone.

Thanks again. Sorry it's turned out to be such a PITA.

I hear ya Michael I guess there is just something psychological about not being able to get service. There is always the phone at the gas station and that awesome Phone Booth at Bills. By the way if you ever need it I believe Texting will work to let Merida know your ok when there is bad cell service. I've used that a few times to notify Tamson I'm down and safe.

Actually the main reason I was hoping for the tower was so that Brad and Ed could defray some expenses.
 
I don't know what the problem is.

There is plenty of cell coverage up there.. you just have to know the secret spot and the happy dance to get it to work. :D :D :D

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There is always the phone at the gas station and that awesome Phone Booth at Bills. By the way if you ever need it I believe Texting will work to let Merida know your ok when there is bad cell service. I've used that a few times to notify Tamson I'm down and safe.

Actually the main reason I was hoping for the tower was so that Brad and Ed could defray some expenses.

Thanks Adam. On my one trip I asked about a phone repeatedly, and was told there were none available. My cell phone coverage sux, and I would happily take someone up on a text offer. That is a good idea, and I would have never thought of it as I've never in my life texted anything to anyone. Just not a texting kind of guy.

I do agree that whatever we can do to lessen the financial burden on Brad and Ed is worth doing. These guys are doing a service for all us Airmen (and ladys) keeping a strip open.
 
Thanks Adam. On my one trip I asked about a phone repeatedly, and was told there were none available. My cell phone coverage sux, and I would happily take someone up on a text offer. That is a good idea, and I would have never thought of it as I've never in my life texted anything to anyone. Just not a texting kind of guy.

I do agree that whatever we can do to lessen the financial burden on Brad and Ed is worth doing. These guys are doing a service for all us Airmen (and ladys) keeping a strip open.

Texting can work if you have some, but poor, coverage. A text message only requires 1 packet to get through while voice requires many. If yo have no coverage, texts don't work either.

And I agree, the off button works wonders. I use mine every night. :wink2:

John
 
Texting can work if you have some, but poor, coverage. A text message only requires 1 packet to get through while voice requires many. If yo have no coverage, texts don't work either.

And I agree, the off button works wonders. I use mine every night. :wink2:

John
I'd be willing to bet that a text message requires multiple packets in both directions for it to properly send.

Your point is valid though. Often you can squeeze out a text message when you couldn't a phone call.
 
Has new technology made it worse? During the Grand Reopening I found a reliable signal on the north side of the field. It took a couple dropped calls but I was finally able to walk along the north edge from about mid-field to almost the approach end of the west rwy the whole time with no loss of signal strength. This using Verizon and a Motorola phone.
 
I'd be willing to bet that a text message requires multiple packets in both directions for it to properly send.

Your point is valid though. Often you can squeeze out a text message when you couldn't a phone call.

Without getting too geeky here, the difference is that the text message is buffered in the phone, packetized, and the packets are then sent with error-correction protocols... if you're in a fringe coverage area, the phone will keep trying to get them through for a little while. (Obviously, there's a limit to the insanity.:D)

Sometimes you can "get lucky" and the underlying packet protocol can eventually squeak out a few packets to a far away receiver straining to hear your wimpy little signals. (This leads to... go outdoors, get as high as physically possible, and keep the phone elevated without much around it to absorb RF energy, including your hand... and that's your best shot. Ever seen someone with a bluetooth headset on, walking around with their phone held high in the air...? No...? Okay, that was probably me...)

Voice requires a near-constant (there is *some buffering* but not a lot... people don't like hearing delayed audio) stream of those same packets. On the fringes, it'll have to "give up" just about as quickly, but that's often not even enough time to let you hear ring-tone back when you dial someone.

The call often *looks* like it's going to complete, because "call setup" is handled similar to the text message. Phone sends some packets to the tower saying it wants to place a call, tower sends back some setup information to the phone, often including the message "turn your transmitter power all the way up... you're really weak here!", phone sends number to call... then the stream starts to fall apart and beep-beep-beep, the phone plays you the "dropped call" sound and resets.

This is also why in really "fringy" areas, the phone will ring (more of that packet data coming out from the nearest tower, assuming the phone even got checked-in there, we're assuming it did or the network wouldn't have sent the call to the tower to ring you) and then you hit the answer button, and it all bombs.

GSM and CDMA handle this all a little differently, but that's a pretty good "generic" version of what's happening.
 
Has new technology made it worse? During the Grand Reopening I found a reliable signal on the north side of the field. It took a couple dropped calls but I was finally able to walk along the north edge from about mid-field to almost the approach end of the west rwy the whole time with no loss of signal strength. This using Verizon and a Motorola phone.

There is still a little bit of signal between the 'FBO Office' and the flight line. There are a few sweet spots on the field where coverage can be had.

Maybe we should have a bonfire in the 'cell phone magic circles' this year to mark the spot. We'll make sure to use enough diesel on the fire to make sure grass will never grow there again. :idea: :thumbsup:
 
Without getting too geeky here, the difference is that the text message is buffered in the phone, packetized, and the packets are then sent with error-correction protocols... if you're in a fringe coverage area, the phone will keep trying to get them through for a little while. (Obviously, there's a limit to the insanity.:D)

Sometimes you can "get lucky" and the underlying packet protocol can eventually squeak out a few packets to a far away receiver straining to hear your wimpy little signals. (This leads to... go outdoors, get as high as physically possible, and keep the phone elevated without much around it to absorb RF energy, including your hand... and that's your best shot. Ever seen someone with a bluetooth headset on, walking around with their phone held high in the air...? No...? Okay, that was probably me...)

Voice requires a near-constant (there is *some buffering* but not a lot... people don't like hearing delayed audio) stream of those same packets. On the fringes, it'll have to "give up" just about as quickly, but that's often not even enough time to let you hear ring-tone back when you dial someone.

The call often *looks* like it's going to complete, because "call setup" is handled similar to the text message. Phone sends some packets to the tower saying it wants to place a call, tower sends back some setup information to the phone, often including the message "turn your transmitter power all the way up... you're really weak here!", phone sends number to call... then the stream starts to fall apart and beep-beep-beep, the phone plays you the "dropped call" sound and resets.

This is also why in really "fringy" areas, the phone will ring (more of that packet data coming out from the nearest tower, assuming the phone even got checked-in there, we're assuming it did or the network wouldn't have sent the call to the tower to ring you) and then you hit the answer button, and it all bombs.

GSM and CDMA handle this all a little differently, but that's a pretty good "generic" version of what's happening.


Nate you truly are geekey but are one of the few people that can explain things so cool guys like me can understand :D
 
We'll make sure to use enough diesel on the fire to make sure grass will never grow there again. :idea: :thumbsup:

I believe no heavy hydrocarbons were involved in that "incident". The accelerant of choice was the blue stuff. Or so I heard :dunno:
 
I believe no heavy hydrocarbons were involved in that "incident". The accelerant of choice was the blue stuff. Or so I heard :dunno:

I had nothing to do with that event, I did witness it while being ready to take cover if need be and asking the all important question 'are you sure that your should be doing that?' I think you are correct about the color of the proximal accelerate. The mitigating accelerate I believe was Crown Brown colored.

:)
 
Moreover, if I did go down en route, no one would know. I can't file a flight plan with no way to close it (VFR flight plans have to be closed by phone)

No, they don't... You can close them via a radio call to FSS too. I would suggest that you stay fairly high as late as possible, get someone's attention on CTAF so that we know you're coming in the next few minutes, and then call up Green Bay Radio through the Iron Mountain VOR (transmitting 122.1, listening on the VOR - If you can't do this, you'll probably need to use the Hancock RCO to the north on 122.525 or the Woodruff RCO on 122.6), tell them you have the field in sight and would like to close your flight plan.

and during my last trip up I couldn't dependably get flight following due to some recurrent transponder issues.

Even with a good txp, you'll need to go high to get flight following - The northwoods area you may need to be as high as 8,000 to be in radar coverage with Minneapolis Center.
 
What's the deal with this airfield? There is nothing out there. Am I missing something?
 
What's the deal with this airfield? There is nothing out there. Am I missing something?

Gary, You are from Marquette aren't you? Draw a line from Marquette to Iron River and the from Iron Mountain to Houghton. Where they cross is about where 6Y9 is (Sidnaw). Not much out there in the way of technology. Just a really nice airstrip, and some nice locals. Which makes for a real good flyin/campout weekend. :thumbsup:

Barb
 
Yep. I know where it is. I have seen it from the air but never landed. It's halfway between Ironwood and Marquette. Nothing but rural U.P. there.
 
What's the deal with this airfield? There is nothing out there. Am I missing something?

Yep. I know where it is. I have seen it from the air but never landed. It's halfway between Ironwood and Marquette. Nothing but rural U.P. there.

Gary the Fredericks ( Brad and Ed ) who are on POA along with Brad's wife Diz reopened 9Y9 and saved it from demise mmm perhaps 5 -6 years ago. They have since expanded the field, put in a pilot shack etc. Anyway every laborday they host a Weekend Flyin and Camping most attendees are POAers We've come from as far as PA, NH, NM and CO its a heck of a lot of fun and the Fredericks define hospitality.
 
Am I missing something?
Yes you are and I encourage you come visit to see what you are missing.

The Fredericks brought this airport back from the dead, literally. It was not even on life support when they started. For the past several years they have hosted a fly in on the labor day weekend which I can simply describe as wonderful. The whole town turns out, there is a giant party, Diz, Brad and Ed out do themselves with hospitality. Plus the pilot who show up are a hoot to hang out with. Lots of stuff to do, great company, etc. You don't want to keep missing out.
 
Gary the Fredericks ( Brad and Ed ) who are on POA along with Brad's wife Diz reopened 9Y9 and saved it from demise mmm perhaps 5 -6 years ago. They have since expanded the field, put in a pilot shack etc. Anyway every laborday they host a Weekend Flyin and Camping most attendees are POAers We've come from as far as PA, NH, NM and CO its a heck of a lot of fun and the Fredericks define hospitality.
CA too. Richard came the for the first fly in.
 
The key word is reliable. For those who might fly in and not know there's a pay phone a few hundred yards away or our sweet spots we've found ,I was mostly trying for WX and flight planning for 6Y9 users. The locals and car travelers would have been a big bonus for the area.
Some of it depends on the phone you're using, both Diz and I have Verizon, there are spots she gets a signal and I don't.
I don't depend on it but it has helped that we put a dish at the cabin and we can get some idea of whats coming, but this doesn't help anyone over on the field.
Adam,I agree part of area's appeal is it's limited access, and yes when I'm up there I mostly use the off button.:thumbsup:
 
Yes you are and I encourage you come visit to see what you are missing.

The Fredericks brought this airport back from the dead, literally. It was not even on life support when they started. For the past several years they have hosted a fly in on the labor day weekend which I can simply describe as wonderful. The whole town turns out, there is a giant party, Diz, Brad and Ed out do themselves with hospitality. Plus the pilot who show up are a hoot to hang out with. Lots of stuff to do, great company, etc. You don't want to keep missing out.
I'll be there if I can get off that weekend. I'm not sure if I will fly or drive. If I drive I will be able to bring more beer.
 
I'll be there if I can get off that weekend. I'm not sure if I will fly or drive. If I drive I will be able to bring more beer.
I hope you can make it. I already have it on my calendar and am planning for a Saturday arrival.

I have made it to Sidnaw every year since the airport has opened, only missing one labor day (Crappy WX). But I was there a couple of months earlier.
 
I hope you can make it. I already have it on my calendar and am planning for a Saturday arrival.

I have made it to Sidnaw every year since the airport has opened, only missing one labor day (Crappy WX). But I was there a couple of months earlier.
Why not? No ILS into Sidnaw?
 
I hope you can make it. I already have it on my calendar and am planning for a Saturday arrival.

I have made it to Sidnaw every year since the airport has opened, only missing one labor day (Crappy WX). But I was there a couple of months earlier.
Ditto.
 
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