So would you not consider someone who flew professionally as an airline pilot to be a professional in retirement flying GA recreationally, since they’re not getting paid for it anymore?
Son wants to be a professional pilot
- Thread starter Paul_Havelka
- Start date
texasclouds
En-Route
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
No. They WERE a professional - or a former professional. If Jordan plays a pickup game of basketball at a park, it's not in a professional capacity.
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
I did my instrument and commercial in an M20. Excellent platform that sort of thing. But insurance could be pricey depending on the vintage of M20. I did mine in a '68 C model and it was fine. But if you're looking at something newer with lots more horsepower, it could expensive to keep insurance on it.
Will second what other said about making him get a 4-year degree in something NOT related to aviation. The thought of flying professionally is enticing for many folks. The reality of flying professionally does not always turn out to be as attractive.
Make sure your son can pass a first class medical. If he can’t, do not proceed with any training until he can. Most jobs require a first class medical. He may be able to get by with a second class but it depends on the company.
sourdough44
En-Route
Yeah, if looking at loans for everything I’d look into some military options. They could be as simple as enlisting in a Guard/Reserve unit to get some extra $$ for college. A side benefit is he would then be on the inside track towards a potential Officer program/pilot slot. As mentioned, some form of ROTC is another idea.
Of course he has to have the right mindset to consider even part time military options.
There are a handful of paths to take, individual initiative factors in heavily. I wish him well.
Of course he has to have the right mindset to consider even part time military options.
There are a handful of paths to take, individual initiative factors in heavily. I wish him well.
sgenie
Pre-Flight
When Raz was a little boy, he said to his Mommy “When I grow up I want to be a Pilot.” “Sorry sweetie”, she replied “You can’t do both”.
bflynn
Final Approach
No, loser. Now go play with your flying toy!
It's a good question though. Is a remote pilot a 'real' pilot?
It’s a horrible question.
No. A pilot has his butt in the seat. A UAS guy is an...operator.
Good on your son. There are worse things than flying 1000 hours a year.
I’ve heard that a million times, so now, I’ve heard it a million and one times. Bravo!
Fallsrider
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2018
- Messages
- 570
- Display Name
Display name:
Fallsrider
I know a pilot who flies right seat for AA. He told me that one time. I thought he was telling it to me for real, but maybe it was just a joke he was passing along. I thought it was funny either way.
Ironically, this pilot was signed up to fly one of the flights that the terrorists flew into the World Trade Center. The evening before, another pilot with seniority took the flight. That pilot died the next day. The pilot I know avoided that catastrophe by mere hours.
unsafervguy
En-Route
No they don't. I use to have a recurrent instructor that would tell me to not say a word when he would get to electrical because the books were so wrong and I would point it out.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Impatient high school seniors can make it as a pilot in aviation even if they haven't got the best of grades or have not taken four years of math and science. They just have to be mature and sensible. In fact, they can pass up those going to college in the short run and maybe for an entire career if they can wind up on a union's seniority list. The trouble is, if they don't have business expertise they won't ever get the ear of larger corporate aircraft owners looking for manager material, so they'll be stuck as a line pilot or small company chief pilot. Engineering expertise opens many challenging and interesting additional pathways to a higher paying, flying-based income. My advice is to fast track his way to CFI then have him teach his way to a business or engineering degree depending on his interests and ability.
jimhorner
Line Up and Wait
Exactly correct. To extend upon that, see the dictionary definitions below. Sorry, one of my pet peaves is people trying to redefine words. Let’s stick with the common definitions. Profession equates to being paid. A job. Flying “like” a professional does not make one “a” professional.
pro·fes·sion
noun
1. a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
pro·fes·sion·al
adjective
1.relating to or connected with a profession.
2.engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.
noun
1. a person engaged or qualified in a profession.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Eric Stoltz
Line Up and Wait
@Creekrat,
I think it is most excellent that you two want to fly! Becoming a professional-paid pilot is great job, and kinda wonky for a career. I have been an airline pilot since 2000, and fly 737's today. I have been a professional pilot since I started flying (for the ones arguing over how to define professional). I started getting paid very shortly after getting my commercial license. My professional advice is based off of my path to where I am now. I strongly suggest getting a 4 year degree in whatever gets the best grades. I have a degree in Geology - which I use every day gazing out of the office window. I used it professionally as well, editing environmental impact statements, while flying for a regional (and earning about 17k a year). I also got all my ratings from a non 141 flight school. So, mostly the part 61 flight school with many planes and pilots, and a few independent instructors and planes. I got the college thing done as fast as I could, and mostly flew to slowly advance my ratings. Then hit the flying hard after graduation, and got to the airlines asap.
Paying for it. I was blessed with a supportive family that helped out a lot. About 400 hours were flown in our plane, and all of it was applicable to getting hired somewhere. I did need to "take a loan" from the bank of Parents and Grand Parents (not FDIC insured). I did pay it back in 10 years, and paid off when I was 32, and a captain at a regional, building time for the majors. The rest is history, as some say. Take the loan, get the college out of the way, buy the ratings with a loan if needed so he can understand:
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN AN AIRLINE PILOT'S CAREER IS SENIORITY. I WILL HOLLER THAT AGAIN. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN AN AIRLINE PILOT'S CAREER IS SENIORITY.
Please re-read the hollered above sentences.
K, good, thanks. The only way to get seniority is to get hired by an airline before the next guy. One number can make a major difference. I missed a captain upgrade by 1 number once. I also didn't get furloughed by a handful of numbers (furlough lasted 2.5 years iirc). If I didn't take the loan, I may have missed the hiring boom back then, got furloughed, and missed captain upgrade (and maybe would be a Delta captain now?, it's wonky for sure). If your son wants to get to the majors and earn $600k (rare) a year somewhere, he needs to get a seniority number ASAP. He needs to get on an airline that has either or both, a clear path from the regional subsidiary to the mainline, or have a fast upgrade to get the jet/airline PIC numbers up as fast as possible.
If the airline route is not a requirement for the career, there are literally 1000's of flying jobs right now. All of them need pilots yesterday, because everyone is hiring everywhere today and tomorrow. There are some incredible jobs up here in AK, fwiw.
Balance is important. What worked best for me is college first. I flew in the summers to bang out a rating, and during the school year enough to stay current and kinda proficient. Go buy that Mooney (or get a Bo' cuz everyone sez its better)
Links to start you off:
https://clearedtodream.org/
https://rodmachado.com/blogs/learning-to-fly/your-airline-career
https://valeri-aviation.thinkific.com/
I think it is most excellent that you two want to fly! Becoming a professional-paid pilot is great job, and kinda wonky for a career. I have been an airline pilot since 2000, and fly 737's today. I have been a professional pilot since I started flying (for the ones arguing over how to define professional). I started getting paid very shortly after getting my commercial license. My professional advice is based off of my path to where I am now. I strongly suggest getting a 4 year degree in whatever gets the best grades. I have a degree in Geology - which I use every day gazing out of the office window. I used it professionally as well, editing environmental impact statements, while flying for a regional (and earning about 17k a year). I also got all my ratings from a non 141 flight school. So, mostly the part 61 flight school with many planes and pilots, and a few independent instructors and planes. I got the college thing done as fast as I could, and mostly flew to slowly advance my ratings. Then hit the flying hard after graduation, and got to the airlines asap.
Paying for it. I was blessed with a supportive family that helped out a lot. About 400 hours were flown in our plane, and all of it was applicable to getting hired somewhere. I did need to "take a loan" from the bank of Parents and Grand Parents (not FDIC insured). I did pay it back in 10 years, and paid off when I was 32, and a captain at a regional, building time for the majors. The rest is history, as some say. Take the loan, get the college out of the way, buy the ratings with a loan if needed so he can understand:
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN AN AIRLINE PILOT'S CAREER IS SENIORITY. I WILL HOLLER THAT AGAIN. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN AN AIRLINE PILOT'S CAREER IS SENIORITY.
Please re-read the hollered above sentences.
K, good, thanks. The only way to get seniority is to get hired by an airline before the next guy. One number can make a major difference. I missed a captain upgrade by 1 number once. I also didn't get furloughed by a handful of numbers (furlough lasted 2.5 years iirc). If I didn't take the loan, I may have missed the hiring boom back then, got furloughed, and missed captain upgrade (and maybe would be a Delta captain now?, it's wonky for sure). If your son wants to get to the majors and earn $600k (rare) a year somewhere, he needs to get a seniority number ASAP. He needs to get on an airline that has either or both, a clear path from the regional subsidiary to the mainline, or have a fast upgrade to get the jet/airline PIC numbers up as fast as possible.
If the airline route is not a requirement for the career, there are literally 1000's of flying jobs right now. All of them need pilots yesterday, because everyone is hiring everywhere today and tomorrow. There are some incredible jobs up here in AK, fwiw.
Balance is important. What worked best for me is college first. I flew in the summers to bang out a rating, and during the school year enough to stay current and kinda proficient. Go buy that Mooney (or get a Bo' cuz everyone sez its better)
Links to start you off:
https://clearedtodream.org/
https://rodmachado.com/blogs/learning-to-fly/your-airline-career
https://valeri-aviation.thinkific.com/
falconkidding
Line Up and Wait
If I were 17-18 again I would slam through my ratings in 6 months then get a 2 yr degree all while getting hours and experience(and money). The second I hit 21 start hitting up the airlines. Assuming the job market somewhat resembles what it is now then FO at 21 and captain at 23-24. In the meantime finish up a 4 year degree. Seniority is everything.
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
I think the advice to get a 4-year degree in a “fallback” field is misguided. First off, there are very, very few 4-year degrees that offer a chance to get a decent job in the field of study. Second, if he flies for 5 years and then gets furloughed, he has a 5-year-old degree in a field he hasn’t followed since graduation. Third, such fallback careers can be self-fulfilling. If the perfect flying job doesn’t appear at graduation, he might be tempted to use that accounting degree. Next thing he knows, ten years have passed without him logging a single hour.
That is wrong on so many levels.
There’s a wide array of undergrad degrees that offer many career tracks. If you’re studying something that doesn’t, than that’s your own problem. If you end up using the degree as a ‘fallback’ and have been away from the game for awhile, most schools these days offer refresher courses that last only a few weeks to months. Also, no clue what you mean by ‘self fulfilling’....isn’t that the point of any career???
I would assume if you didn’t have a backup and you for whatever reason lost your medical after the start of your career in aviation, you’d be wishing that you had something else that you could lean on. Sorry but your post is just incorrect.
First thing - have him take a first class medical. Right away. If he was diagnosed with something stupid like ADD or anxiety/depression at any point, it becomes much more difficult.
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
Could not disagree more with all of this. Fact: There are a huge number of individuals who never find careers in their degree. But having that degree, no matter the subject of it, enabled them to get the job they do have.
Which could lead one to wonder why some many here say get degree that is not aviation related. Simple answer. A degree is a bet and getting a degree not related to aviation is a hedge on that bet. The washout/burnout rate in professional aviation is relatively high. Having an aviation related degree opens those doors that just need a degree. Having a degree outside of aviation opens all same those door plus others that an aviation specific degree wouldn't. An aviation degree is a bet. A non-aviation degree is a better bet.
SkyDog58
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2015
- Messages
- 14,600
- Location
- My own special place.
- Display Name
Display name:
Canis Non Grata
And you can always turn that liberal arts degree into a job at Starbucks.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Well are you gonna be in aviation or not? If a degree is what you want, get one in something that augments a career in aviation. Aviation has accountants, for example, and accountants know where the money is and seem to find a way to get their hands on it. See what I mean?
Like I say, if said student decides to study a dead end field, than that’s their own problem. Plenty of good fields out there for an undergrad degree.
I'm a department manager, managing people on three continents in a billion-dollar worldwide company with a liberal arts degree.
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
Name 5 that'll give you a good career in the field and allow you to come back after a 5-10 year hiatus.
I got my degree in Economics in 2015. I’m not sure if I were to lose my medical somewhere down the road I’d be able to get a job in the field with no experience. I do still think it’s more useful than the aeronautical science degree though.
- Joined
- May 29, 2014
- Messages
- 4,381
- Display Name
Display name:
Kayoh@190
I'm in the same boat - have degrees in CS and Physics, but the last time I did any professional software development was almost 20 years ago. Not sure I'd be able to just roll into a programming gig these days.
Still happy to have them, though.
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
Computer science
Finance
Biology
Education
Electrical engineering
All of those will get you a job anywhere that requires a non-specific degree. All of them could also make you more attractive for certain jobs than someone with a degree in aviation management or the like.
Yea I do think I made the right decision doing it that way rather than going to ERAU or WMU. I’ve been toying with the idea of getting my real estate license. My dad got it back in 2001 when he thought he was going to get furloughed at NWA. It would be a nice thing to have.
- Joined
- May 29, 2014
- Messages
- 4,381
- Display Name
Display name:
Kayoh@190
Doesn't sound like a bad idea. I was happy to have a more traditional college experience. Girls, beer, football, and I guess a class or two thrown in there when I had the time.
College was also a lot cheaper then though - the programming paid for it and my flying. It was so much easier to stomach the financial realities of the aviation career when not saddled with debt.
You mean you didn’t want THIS at ERAU?Doesn't sound like a bad idea. I was happy to have a more traditional college experience. Girls, beer, football, and I guess a class or two thrown in there when I had the time.
College was also a lot cheaper then though - the programming paid for it and my flying. It was so much easier to stomach the financial realities of the aviation career when not saddled with debt.
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
"Non-specific degree" includes aviation. And do you really think you could take a 5-10 year hiatus from finance, education, or engineering and get a job? Seems unlikely. And about biology: what do you do with a bachelor's in biology?
jaymark6655
Pre-takeoff checklist
Engineer here, I have seen several people go do something else and then get an entry level engineering position. The thing about engineering is the base math and physics of it never changes so it isn't really a perishable skill unless you forget how to do calculus somehow. One of my coworkers took a 5 year break to build furniture before returning to his job like nothing happened. Anything with computers, especially programming, changes about every month with new languages being developed making it hard to take any kind of break without having to learn a lot to "catch back up" before becoming a competitive job applicant.
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
My wife work in R&D for a large veterinary pharmaceutical. Her degree? You guessed it. She's worked in the field for since graduation. But she works with more than one person who did not.
jimhorner
Line Up and Wait
Plus pretty much all the other Engineering degrees. Mech E.
, Civil E, etc.
I’d add education to the list as well. My mom got out of the teaching profession once she had my sister and me. It was easy for her to get back in when we hit high school.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
OneCharlieTango
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,165
- Display Name
Display name:
OneCharlieTango
I can see that it might work for engineering. But I still think someone who’d never worked in engineering and hadn’t spoken to an engineer since graduation would have a hard time getting a job with his 10-year-old degree. Add to that the fact that an economy that’s laying off pilots is likely laying off engineers, and I’m not convinced an engineering degree is the best bet.
Honestly, I think the best bet for a furloughed pilot is sales. If he’s lucky, he can get into life insurance or stocks. If he’s REALLY lucky, he can sell to liquor stores. But if not, everything has to be sold somehow. Lots of sales jobs require a degree, but most don’t care what it’s in. Which, when you think about it, is pretty ridiculous.
Honestly, I think the best bet for a furloughed pilot is sales. If he’s lucky, he can get into life insurance or stocks. If he’s REALLY lucky, he can sell to liquor stores. But if not, everything has to be sold somehow. Lots of sales jobs require a degree, but most don’t care what it’s in. Which, when you think about it, is pretty ridiculous.
The problem with all of this, is that you’re just assuming (speculation). ‘You think’ ‘it might’ —tells me that you have no real basis for your argument other than a belief about what ‘may’ happen.
I can tell you that I know someone (a distant relative) who became a nurse and due to other financial circumstances, never ended up using the degree. Now, 35+ years later, she finds herself in need of a paying career, so you know what? She’s enrolled in a nursing refresher course at a local university to begin using that degree she earned a few decades ago. It happens. Don’t be assumptual.
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
I think the problem here is that you're thinking with a pilot mindset. Being a pilot qualifies you to do exactly one thing, i.e. fly planes. With extremely rare exception, if the job does not involve actually flying planes, having the pilot certs does nothing for you. The same is not necessarily true the degrees being discussed here.
Yep a degree in engineering would qualify you to work as an engineer. And yep its unlikely anyone is going to hire you to design bridges if you've not used the degree since you got out of school 10 years ago. But there are other jobs out there where having a background in engineering i.e. a degree in it would give you a hiring advantage over someone who showed up with his trusty bachelors of aviation sciences. They're not jobs working 'as an engineer' but they fit your description of a good career and having the degree gave you an advantage in getting the job.
Sinistar
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2016
- Messages
- 3,734
- Display Name
Display name:
Brad
Add me to those who disagree.
I think where your assumption is flawed is that a person needs to get the 4yr (non-aviation) degree and actually get a job in that field and use that money to finish off the ratings. That strategy comes at the expense of seniority...but it means you have some experience in your degree field and far less debt.
My wife can offer this example:
1.) Starts college towards a Math degree (add that to the list along with CS, engineering, nurses and physics)
2.) Does here PPL during one summer break (pays for it with a crappy summer job)
3.) Switches to a big aviation school (still math degree) and starts flying
4.) Hates the curriculum and prices so aborts on the aviation program continues Math degree
4.) Does her IR during a second summer break (pays for it with a crappy summer job)
5.) At 4yrs has a Math degree + PPL + IR zero debt!!!
6.) Gets a job and works through Complex, HP, Commerical, ME (Inline & wing mounted???), Seaplane (SE), Some Turbo Prop time
7.) Leaves corporate job and flies for airlines
8.) 911 hits. No new hiring. Shes a FO and sees she'll never move up
9.) Has a job back in here degree and field within 3wks paying 3x that FO pay.
10.) Her friends that stayed on took around 4yrs to move over to left seat.
...so that non-aviation degree payed off. She never had debt. She was never a CFI either. She could go back at any time. But now she's a mom and doesn't want to be gone all the time. Thankfully she has that 4yr degree vs just a bunch of aviation ratings and having to work at Starbucks along with $100K of aviation loans.
I agree its all about seniority...but that race to get there fast seems to leave no fallback. And with aviation going so strong, doesn't your gut just tell you its gotta hit a snag sooner than later.
Maybe other good advice is to be a electrician or plumber. It takes less time/money to get through the trade school. WE WILL ALWAYS NEED those jobs. And they are jobs a pilot can do part time when not flying. My CFII hangs sheetrock when he's not flying.