Sometimes it's better to NOT know

rottydaddy

rottydaddy

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Went up with a CFI for some more Cessna 140 time today, in the only rentable 140 I've found so far. Looked good during preflight and had flown earlier that day, and the CFI is an old hand who owns a 120 and knows this bird well. It handled well, and I did better trimming it out than the other two I've flown so far. so much fun to fly!:D

Did some maneuvers: steeps, power-off stalls, gentle secondary stalls, etc... nothing unusual, then decided to head back to the field for some landings.

I asked the CFI to take over so I could take a picture; he offered to "do something with the airplane" so i suggested a steep turn away from the sun... he smoothly entered a steep turn to the right, well below the yellow arc... and halfway through the 360, we heard a loud "bang!", the plane shook once, and next thing you know he's nursing it back to the field with lots of right rudder.
We decided it was a bird strike to the tail (red-tail hawks are common in the area), and he went straight-in for a good landing (no wind) without declaring. Our theory was a guess- you can't see the tail from inside a 140.

After we parked and looked at the damage, we agreed that it was for the best that we thought it was minor damage to the empennage due to a bird... I, for one, would have pooped my pants for sure.
How in Bernoulli's name we made it home I do not know for sure... but a savvy CFI and a really fine old design seem to have been factors.
 

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Holy hell!! :hairraise: Nice job to both of you for slapping Bernoulli in the face and getting that thing home!
 
Maybe Bernoulli isn't all it's cracked up to be (pun intended).

U berry rucky, berry berry rucky.

Glad you got back standing up.
 
fgcason said:
Sometimes ignorance actually is bliss. :eek:
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I wouldn't say "bliss"... we were pretty anxious even when we thought it was
some minor damage to the tail feathers.
We both stayed cool, but it was a long 8 miles or so.

But it reminded me of a general rule about flying: it's usually best to not think too much about how it all works, just fly the damn thing.
 
Steve said:
U berry rucky, berry berry rucky.
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First thing I said to the small group waiting for us after climbing out (after "holy sh*t!!" when I saw the wing) was "anybody wants to touch us for good luck, it'll be five dollars... head rubs are ten dollars!"
:D
Some damn airport bum got a freebie before I could move away... hope it backfires on him. :D
 
I was flying with a friend the other day and we lost one of the side storm windows in flight. I thought that was exciting, but now it looks almost routine.

I'm amazed you were able to fly back without a LOT more trouble. Glad you made it! :yes:

-Felix
 
KennyFlys said:
:hairraise: Gosh!


Did you notice a problem with stall speed on final?
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The CFI was at the controls, from just prior to the departure of the skin to the moment we parked, and I wasn't watching the ASI myself in the flare, nor do I recall how much power he carried coming over the threshold (certainly not much more than normal), but his general observation was that it seemed more or less like normal except for the tendency to yaw to the left.

Had he relaxed his right foot, it no doubt would have also wanted to roll to the left, and it would have possibly gotten very interesting if he'd tried to correct that roll with aileron once it developed.
He landed without flaps... probably another good call on his part.

That ship has no stall warning horn, I believe...hard to say what exact effect the damage had on stall speed. But the flare and touchdown seemed to me basically a normal 3-pointer for a 140.
I guess the bottom line is that if the pilot is careful, a C140 will fly decently with only 1 1/2 wings... as long as he doesn't know. :D
 
Just curious... Is this sort of thing reportable?

Glad you made it back in once piece... Too bad the plane didn't.

What would cause a big chunk of skin to depart?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Just curious... Is this sort of thing reportable?
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good question. I'll be looking into that.

Glad you made it back in once piece... Too bad the plane didn't.
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There was enough left to satisfy me... I'm not greedy. :D

What would cause a big chunk of skin to depart?
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I'm not qualified to say, and I shouldn't speculate before I hear from a qualified source.
But- I didn't see (with my layman's eye) any other damage- the framework, now disturbingly visible, seemed OK; no busted or slack rigging wires, no damaged ribs; and the struts on that side looked OK. the inboard section covering the tank was wrinkle and tear-free, except for the strip of tape just aft of the spar cap that peeled off all the way to the root.
Seems to me at the moment that whatever the problem was, it was with that fabric panel.
We certainly didn't do anything in flight that would, to my knowledge, cause a whole section of fabric to come off, assuming it was secured properly and was in good condition. It came off just after he lifted that wing entering a steep but level and well-coordinated turn at a moderate airspeed... if it was starting to come loose prior, there was no indication we could perceive.
 
Was that out of C77 on Saturday? At about what time if it was? I was up flying from about 1 to 3 and considered heading over to Poplar Grove as I have never actually landed there.
 
smigaldi said:
Was that out of C77 on Saturday? At about what time if it was? I was up flying from about 1 to 3 and considered heading over to Poplar Grove as I have never actually landed there.
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LOL- Yes; it occurred about 2 PM, I guess.
You would probably have probably been on downwind thinking "who do these guys think they are, making a 5-mile straight-in in a C140?!" :mad: :D

It's a nice airport... I may be out here (Chicago) again next month; maybe I'll see you there if I do any flying.
 
smigaldi said:
That would be cool. We can get the Chicago area PoA gang together and meet up somewhere.
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Great idea.
I feel bad that I didn't make more of an effort to meet up with quite a few Chi-town area pilot buddies from the Web this time (although I did mention here that I'd be out this way- cough), but it was a miracle I made it out to C77 twice in one week as it was, since I had no rental car this time and was at the mercy of bus schedules, in addition to working a night shift all week.

Now I'm waiting for a cab to take me to O'Hare for my delightful journey home by way of Detroit... jeez, I'm getting more tired just thinking about it.
 
My goodness... talk about adverse yaw! Good job... "fly it until it stops", right? Glad you're here to tell us about it.
 
Wow! Sean, I'm glad you're OK! The CFI did a great job bringing it back down safely. :yes:

rottydaddy said:
Seems to me at the moment that whatever the problem was, it was with that fabric panel.
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I'm really curious about this part, especially since I have fabric wings. I wonder what was holding that panel onto the wing in the first place? After spending hours and hours helping with the Citabria restoration, I have a deeper respect for the way our fabric is riveted on.

I've always wondered how I would react if something went wrong with the airplane. The times when I had things go wrong, like having the wing root trim start to peel off while inverted in a 1/2 Cuban, or the throttle physically stuck wide open in a spin in the middle of the aerobatic contest, it all boiled down to just flying the airplane. Sudden broken things in an airplane is the kind of surprise that is so startling (especially if there is a strange noise or sensation), and then comes the "huh?" moment. Then the training kicks in, although some things you don't know you needed to train for.
 
It appears the last time the wing was recovered the installer opted not to rib stitch. I believe gluing directly to the rib is an approved method, but I'm not a fan of doing it that way. I suspect the cold temperature had an effect on the adhesive properties.

What does the other wing look like?
 
Diana said:
Wow! Sean, I'm glad you're OK! The CFI did a great job bringing it back down safely. :yes:

I'm really curious about this part, especially since I have fabric wings. I wonder what was holding that panel onto the wing in the first place? After spending hours and hours helping with the Citabria restoration, I have a deeper respect for the way our fabric is riveted on.
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Those Cessna wings are done with staple-like clips that go through holes in the ribs... I'm not sure if stitching ever follows, but I did hear after this happened that there is a Service Bulletin out there regarding wear on these clips and the holes.
What's really freaky is that there seemed to be no warning- if one or two came out, would that be perceived? Was it a chain-reaction thing?
It's very odd. Other than some tape, there was no sign of that panel. It seems (to me) to have come off in on piece, all at once.

I've always wondered how I would react if something went wrong with the airplane. The times when I had things go wrong, like having the wing root trim start to peel off while inverted in a 1/2 Cuban, or the throttle physically stuck wide open in a spin in the middle of the aerobatic contest, it all boiled down to just flying the airplane. Sudden broken things in an airplane is the kind of surprise that is so startling (especially if there is a strange noise or sensation), and then comes the "huh?" moment. Then the training kicks in, although some things you don't know you needed to train for.
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You ain't whistlin' Dixie, lady. I've never dealt with a surprise like this one before, and I can only hope I'd just stop worrying and fly it as best I could... worrying won't do a damn thing for you in that kind of situation.

I guess my luck was double: living to tell about it, and also experiencing it with a better-qualified pilot at the helm!
 
Steve said:
It appears the last time the wing was recovered the installer opted not to rib stitch. I believe gluing directly to the rib is an approved method, but I'm not a fan of doing it that way. I suspect the cold temperature had an effect on the adhesive properties.

What does the other wing look like?
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To be honest, I didn't look very closely at the other wing... I should have. There was no obvious damage, but naturally any aberration there might provide a clue.
 
It looks like an improper repair to me. My Cessna 140 never had a separate piece of fabric in that one spot, that I can remember.
 
I saw that and I said aloud "H O L Y S % ! T !"

As far as getting together, I'm in SLC the week of 3/10, but could probably work something out most of the rest of the month. And no one jumped on the JVL get-together this weekend, despite the wonderful flying weekend (including ME!)
 
kgruber said:
It looks like an improper repair to me. My Cessna 140 never had a separate piece of fabric in that one spot, that I can remember.
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I thought it was odd that it didn't lap over the leading edge...isn't that how it would be done if starting over?
Or does one "bag" these wings?

I'd heard the plane was "recovered fairly recently", but nobody mentioned a repair.
Serves me right, I guess, for not asking to see the logs.
 
i really dont think its anything you could've predicted from logs or even a preflight. it sure seems like that huge patch wasn't rib stitched though. Im still absolutely amazed that the thing flew home.
 
gprellwitz said:
I saw that and I said aloud "H O L Y S % ! T !"

As far as getting together, I'm in SLC the week of 3/10, but could probably work something out most of the rest of the month. And no one jumped on the JVL get-together this weekend, despite the wonderful flying weekend (including ME!)
Click to expand...


Hold that thought. I'm most likely going to be in downtown Chicago the second and third weeks of March, but don't know for sure yet.

I sure would like to look at 27V again... I never even properly examined the right wing post-flight.

I wish I could have been more flexible on this last trip, but I was forced to just aim for those two little windows I had, so I could A) get on skis and B) try out 27V.
 
tonycondon said:
i really dont think its anything you could've predicted from logs or even a preflight. it sure seems like that huge patch wasn't rib stitched though. Im still absolutely amazed that the thing flew home.
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I was thinking the logs might at least alert me to a patch job (if it was logged properly), and I have to admit I didn't stick the tanks (the CFI had flown it earlier and had just had it topped off), so my inspection of the upper wing surfaces was from the gound... I could see any major thing from there, but I didn't really look closely at any of the tape, etc.
You can be assured I will never fail, logs or no logs, to do that again when preflighting a ragwing!! It was easy to really eyeball the whole top area on the Champ I was flying, because of its height and "stance".
But to be extra-thorough with a 140 I have to hop up on the tire and lean against the cabin to see everything up there. I would say it's time and effort well-spent!


But help a (ragwing) brother out: what is the straight dope (pun intended) on how these Cessna wings are made or repaired?

From what others have told me, this one used glue on the edges and retaining clips on the ribs, with the usual tape. There has been a Service Bulletin issued on old Cessnas with these clips; seems sometimes the holes get worn and they come loose while fighting "ballooning" of the skins.

Some have said "looks like a patch" but nobody's said what layout is supposed to be there, i.e. where the seams should be. Seems to me in a total redo of the skins you would wrap that piece over the leading edge and glue it underneath...?

Oh, BTW... it flew home because the 140 is just a superb airplane.
 
It didnt fly home based on anything im learning in school, thats for sure!

I would've expected the repair to be done with rib stitching on each rib. I thought that was the way fabric work was described in the Maintenance AC for aircraft with 140 like Vne's. Straight glue to the ribs is no good for anything faster than ultralights really. I suppose the staples are somewhere in between. I also suspect that, like riveted wing skins, once one of the staples lets loose, the rest follow quickly.
 
I'm looking at that and while it looks horrible, the first thought that popped into my head was the mythbusters with the "better gas mileage with the tailgate up or down in a pickup" episode. Air basically fills the wing and keeps "rolling" inside the wing, and lets the air over the top basically ride on the air inside the wing, *almost* like the skin was still there. There was enough deflection from the leading edge to keep the flow from decaying. My guess would be that if you did the same thing to the other side the plane would fly not much different that normal with the only exception being a loss of a few knots at given power settings.
 
Glad you ok too and I agree sometimes its best not to know. Now the big question. Did they charge you for the rental? LOL
 
EdFred said:
I'm looking at that and while it looks horrible, the first thought that popped into my head was the mythbusters with the "better gas mileage with the tailgate up or down in a pickup" episode. Air basically fills the wing and keeps "rolling" inside the wing, and lets the air over the top basically ride on the air inside the wing, *almost* like the skin was still there. There was enough deflection from the leading edge to keep the flow from decaying. My guess would be that if you did the same thing to the other side the plane would fly not much different that normal with the only exception being a loss of a few knots at given power settings.
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That's the most logical explanation I've thought of...but it was the yaw it induced that was the real problem. He told me today he was out of rudder in the flare and there was no x-wind to speak of... it really wanted to turn left, probably would have dropped that wing, too, if he'd let it go.
 
AdamZ said:
Glad you ok too and I agree sometimes its best not to know. Now the big question. Did they charge you for the rental? LOL
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Believe it or not, yes, but I didn't consider demanding a refund... I don't hold the owners responsible, it's whoever did the work that I have a beef with.

And Bob the CFI certainly earned his fee... and then some.
It would have been a nice gesture to say "this one's on the house", but I don't feel cheated. Before that panel came loose I got my money's worth.

Latest I heard (today)is that this was part of a re-cover of the tops only that was done in '01... supposedly clips were not supposed to be used, and it was supposed to be stitched up in the old manner.
I still haven't discussed the matter with the owners, but I have heard that they are not looking to go after me to pay for it even though I signed a rental waiver which they could try to use against me if they chose... not that I'd stand for that.

In a way, they are not liable either... they jobbed out the work (as far as I know) and accepted somebody's signoff on it. Had it been done by someone on the school's payroll, I might see it differently.
 
Rottydaddy,

I think you ought to add 2 other pictures from a post on a different board. The one showing the peelback towards the aileron, and the one with you standing by the wing.
 
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