Sometimes 2 in the cockpit are not enough

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old cfi

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Old CFI
This is one of those head-scratching NTSB reports that makes you wonder just how much these folks get paid to be so stupid::mad2::mad2::mad2:

NTSB Identification: ERA15LA288
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, July 22, 2015 in West Palm Beach, FL
Aircraft: CANADAIR CL-600-2B16, registration: N613PJ
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

On July 22, 2015, about 1410 eastern daylight time, a Canadair CL-600-2B16, N613PJ, operated by USAC Airways 691 LLC, was substantially damaged when it struck an all-terrain ground vehicle (ATV) while taxiing at Palm Beach International Airport (PBI), West Palm Beach, Florida. Both airline transport pilots were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed for the flight, which was destined for Opa-Locka Executive Airport (OPF), Miami, Florida. The positioning flight was operated under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

According to ground service personnel at OPF, they observed the accident airplane as it prepared to taxi and noticed that its baggage door was open. Two of the ground handlers subsequently boarded their ATV and drove out to the airplane, parking about 10 feet in front of the left wing. One of the ground handlers then dismounted the ATV and proceeded in front of the airplane while motioning to the crew in the cockpit that the baggage door was open. The pilot seated in the right seat then stood up and proceeded into the cabin. Shortly after, the airplane began moving forward. The ground handler then unsuccessfully attempted to gain the attention of the pilot seated in the left seat, as it moved toward and struck the ATV, resulting in substantial damage to the airplane's left wing.

About one week after the accident, the operator's director of maintenance completed a preflight inspection and check of the airplane's hydraulic and braking systems under the supervision of a Federal Aviation Administration inspector, with no anomalies noted.

Both the flight data and cockpit voice recorders were forwarded to the NTSB Vehicle Recorders Laboratory for analysis.
 
old cfi said:
This is one of those head-scratching NTSB reports that makes you wonder just how much these folks get paid to be so stupid::mad2::mad2::mad2:

NTSB Identification: ERA15LA288
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, July 22, 2015 in West Palm Beach, FL
Aircraft: CANADAIR CL-600-2B16, registration: N613PJ
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

On July 22, 2015, about 1410 eastern daylight time, a Canadair CL-600-2B16, N613PJ, operated by USAC Airways 691 LLC, was substantially damaged when it struck an all-terrain ground vehicle (ATV) while taxiing at Palm Beach International Airport (PBI), West Palm Beach, Florida. Both airline transport pilots were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed for the flight, which was destined for Opa-Locka Executive Airport (OPF), Miami, Florida. The positioning flight was operated under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

According to ground service personnel at OPF, they observed the accident airplane as it prepared to taxi and noticed that its baggage door was open. Two of the ground handlers subsequently boarded their ATV and drove out to the airplane, parking about 10 feet in front of the left wing. One of the ground handlers then dismounted the ATV and proceeded in front of the airplane while motioning to the crew in the cockpit that the baggage door was open. The pilot seated in the right seat then stood up and proceeded into the cabin. Shortly after, the airplane began moving forward. The ground handler then unsuccessfully attempted to gain the attention of the pilot seated in the left seat, as it moved toward and struck the ATV, resulting in substantial damage to the airplane's left wing.

About one week after the accident, the operator's director of maintenance completed a preflight inspection and check of the airplane's hydraulic and braking systems under the supervision of a Federal Aviation Administration inspector, with no anomalies noted.

Both the flight data and cockpit voice recorders were forwarded to the NTSB Vehicle Recorders Laboratory for analysis.
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So the ground personnel at OPF saw it while it was taxiing at PBI. Those guys have some sharp eyes! They also must have set a ground speed record driving their ATV to the airplane. :lol:
 
Running over the rampies, listed as "not approved" in the ops manual. ;) Ouch.
 
Why would the right seater,go into the cabin,and then the captain start to taxi? Would like to read the interview with the pilot.
 
frfly172 said:
Why would the right seater,go into the cabin,and then the captain start to taxi? Would like to read the interview with the pilot.
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It sounded a little more like the FO went into the back and the Captain wasn't paying attention and let the aircraft move forward although it seems like it would take a good amount of power to start moving again once stopped.
 
Perhaps a more accurate thread title would be "There is REASON to have two people in the cockpit".
 
They probably had a "door unlock" light (or whatever the Challenger terminology is), the FO went back to check the door, and the Captain continued to taxi...not as unusual as we'd like to believe in corporate aviation.
 
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SkyDog58 said:
Still doesn't make it smart.
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No I agree it's not smart at all. When taxiing in congested areas you should always verify your surroundings before you start moving. But depending on where the ATV was parked, it may or may not have been in his field of vision.

Heard a lot of posts about the pilots, none about the idiot ramp guy that parks an ATV 10 feet in front of the wing of a running jet.

I know the Challenger has an annunciator if the baggage door is open and I am about 60% sure if can be accessed in flight through the back by the lavatory(which may be what the co-pilot was doing). The ramp guys more than likely didn't know this, but they couldn't have parked a safer distance away and tried to flag him down? Drove far ahead of him and waved like a "follow me" truck? Used a handheld radio? As a former line guy and pilot I know you DON'T park a vehicle near a running airplane for ANY reason unless discussed with the pilot first for special reasons such as hot-fueling. Lot of finger pointing at the pilots, not enough at the ramp guys in my opinion.
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
No I agree it's not smart at all. When taxiing in congested areas you should always verify your surroundings before you start moving. But depending on where the ATV was parked, it may or may not have been in his field of vision.

Heard a lot of posts about the pilots, none about the idiot ramp guy that parks an ATV 10 feet in front of the wing of a running jet.

I know the Challenger has an annunciator if the baggage door is open and I am about 60% sure if can be accessed in flight through the back by the lavatory(which may be what the co-pilot was doing). The ramp guys more than likely didn't know this, but they couldn't have parked a safer distance away and tried to flag him down? Drove far ahead of him and waved like a "follow me" truck? Used a handheld radio? As a former line guy and pilot I know you DON'T park a vehicle near a running airplane for ANY reason unless discussed with the pilot first for special reasons such as hot-fueling. Lot of finger pointing at the pilots, not enough at the ramp guys in my opinion.
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I was thinking along the same lines as I read, "...parked 10 feet in front of the left wing".

I saw a Beech 99 take out a start cart one time. Pretty much in the same style. After the second engine start the plane was allowed to roll forward. No one was paying attention until the loud noise started.

A new company procedure came from that. No more parking the start cart in front of the engines.....:rolleyes2:

A start cart is not usually required for the 99, just used in winter because of the severe cold in Alaska.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It sounded a little more like the FO went into the back and the Captain wasn't paying attention and let the aircraft move forward although it seems like it would take a good amount of power to start moving again once stopped.
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Depending on the slope of the ramp it could start to move if they did not have the parking brake set or the pilot in the left seat wasn't holding the brakes firmly enough.
 
Agree the ramp guy wasn't the smartest but who is responsible for the safety of the flight? Yeah the captain. Situational awareness - a wonderful thing when it works.

Along iNdigo's post another thing might have happened -- maybe copilot set the parking brake and the captain got distracted thinking everything was fine -- possibly parking brake slipped?
 
he forgot to say 'your airplane' before going to the back (joking, don't flame me)
 
Aren't ground vehicles/operators equipped with radios to be able to communicate with the ground controller? Would have been a very easy call instead of stepping in front of a giant with limited visibility and preoccupied pilots.
Afterall, they HAD TO call ground to get permission to enter an active taxiway, no?
 
The way I read the following is that the plane was preparing to taxi so it was likely still in the non-movement area and thus the vehicle would not need a radio to communicate with ATC or any aircraft. That is only required to drive into the movement area. Besides, they probably weren't even trained on movement area operations. Most aren't. They are just taught not to cross the line.

The aircraft had yet begun to taxi. The pilot should have cleared the area before releasing brakes. Though the ground guys should have probably approached the aircraft from an angle that would have caught the crews attention better. The article does not state whether the copilot getting up and going aft was in response to the ground crew's action or whether the flight crew noticed the annunciator. My guess is the latter and that they never saw the ground guys.

According to ground service personnel at OPF, they observed the accident airplane as it prepared to taxi and noticed that its baggage door was open. Two of the ground handlers subsequently boarded their ATV and drove out to the airplane, parking about 10 feet in front of the left wing.
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MauleSkinner said:
They probably had a "door unlock" light (or whatever the Challenger terminology is), the FO went back to check the door, and the Captain continued to taxi...not as unusual as we'd like to believe in corporate aviation.
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Yeah. Maybe they were getting the light at the same time the ATV was ambushing them. Maybe never saw the ATV but the ATV drivers assumed they did because of the coincidence of the timing. Bad cockpit procedures and communication maybe?? I don't know, I don't fly those kinds of planes. Maybe the ground crew should re-evalute there decision to park the ATV right where if something went wrong the wing was gonna pick them off. There were probably better ways to get the crews attention.
 
Really? Really? Send the flight data recorder and CVR to NTSB? For a crow-bar simple taxi incident? It might have been a mild comedy of errors, but this much hand wringing and analysis? Over parking a vehicle in the way of an airplane about to move? This one was hard to figure out, and that important? No pax on board, no injuries. . .s'mazing.
 
Im betting a simple case of no one looking when they should be. Right seater out of his seat completely means two eyes instead of four for starters. Bad, bad form.
Glad nobody was hurt, but sort of glad it happened. Good to have a non injury wake up call. It just might save lives down the road.
 
Sundancer said:
Really? Really? Send the flight data recorder and CVR to NTSB? For a crow-bar simple taxi incident? It might have been a mild comedy of errors, but this much hand wringing and analysis? Over parking a vehicle in the way of an airplane about to move? This one was hard to figure out, and that important? No pax on board, no injuries. . .s'mazing.
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Somewhere there was a breakdown in procedure. Maybe they'll find it was on the ground crews part, maybe the crews part, maybe both. Maybe they'll find the crew to have a lackadasical atitude, maybe not. At any rate this report will be written in ink. Better to identify problems now than wait for an incident that will be written in blood.
 
BigBadLou said:
Aren't ground vehicles/operators equipped with radios to be able to communicate with the ground controller? Would have been a very easy call instead of stepping in front of a giant with limited visibility and preoccupied pilots.
Afterall, they HAD TO call ground to get permission to enter an active taxiway, no?
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Not necessarily.... not in a non-movement area that isn't controlled by ground.
 
Doors; from the CRJ.- Son of Challenger-No need to getup.. Gonna be fun to read the NTSB on this one.
 

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old cfi said:
This is one of those head-scratching NTSB reports that makes you wonder just how much these folks get paid to be so stupid::mad2::mad2::mad2:

NTSB Identification: ERA15LA288
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, July 22, 2015 in West Palm Beach, FL
Aircraft: CANADAIR CL-600-2B16, registration: N613PJ
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

On July 22, 2015, about 1410 eastern daylight time, a Canadair CL-600-2B16, N613PJ, operated by USAC Airways 691 LLC, was substantially damaged when it struck an all-terrain ground vehicle (ATV) while taxiing at Palm Beach International Airport (PBI), West Palm Beach, Florida. Both airline transport pilots were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed for the flight, which was destined for Opa-Locka Executive Airport (OPF), Miami, Florida. The positioning flight was operated under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

According to ground service personnel at OPF, they observed the accident airplane as it prepared to taxi and noticed that its baggage door was open. Two of the ground handlers subsequently boarded their ATV and drove out to the airplane, parking about 10 feet in front of the left wing. One of the ground handlers then dismounted the ATV and proceeded in front of the airplane while motioning to the crew in the cockpit that the baggage door was open. The pilot seated in the right seat then stood up and proceeded into the cabin. Shortly after, the airplane began moving forward. The ground handler then unsuccessfully attempted to gain the attention of the pilot seated in the left seat, as it moved toward and struck the ATV, resulting in substantial damage to the airplane's left wing.

About one week after the accident, the operator's director of maintenance completed a preflight inspection and check of the airplane's hydraulic and braking systems under the supervision of a Federal Aviation Administration inspector, with no anomalies noted.

Both the flight data and cockpit voice recorders were forwarded to the NTSB Vehicle Recorders Laboratory for analysis.
Click to expand...

What hand signal is used to send that message to the flight crew...:confused::confused:.....:rolleyes:
 
neilki said:
Doors; from the CRJ.- Son of Challenger-No need to getup.. Gonna be fun to read the NTSB on this one.
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There would be a need to get up if the FO was going to shut the door...
 
The really serious failure was the eastern airlines captain and F.O. Trying to decipher the nose gear light. A real nightmare.
 
N801BH said:
Eastern flight 301 ,,, commonly known as the "Gator Express":dunno:....:redface:
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401. Not only did they have a Captain and FO in the cockpit. They also had a Flight Engineer and Maintenance Tech that was jump-seating.
 
There was an A340 that they failed to secure during run up tests at the acceptance facility and it ended up on top of the blast wall.
etihad01.jpg
 
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