Some doctors are morons.

I want the record profits hospitals and the CEO of said hospitals get to go to things like: Research, training, pay raises for all staff from doctors down and staffing.

Out of about 5000 hospitals in the US, 4000 are either not-for-profit or publicly owned (county/city). While there are extremes in every industry, considering the risks that come with the job and the size of the organizations, I dont believe that most hospital CEOs are overpaid.

There was a time in the past when operating a for-profit hospital was a good business. While there are still a couple of hospitals with good profit margins, often they are the flagship in a larger system and have to feed a couple of smaller community places with negative margins. The average community hospital in the US breaks even in a good year. There are a couple of investor owned specialty hospitals (cardiology, orthopedics) that make silly money, good for them, I wish I could have gotten in on that racket ;) .

Some non-profits are quite profitable, but the way they work, their profit doesn't go to investors but has to be plowed back into mission related work. As with the for-profit systems, often that is the support of smaller feeder hospitals that operate at a loss. The median operating margin for non-profit hospitals in 2013 was 2.2%, down from 2.5-2.7% in prior years. Is that an outrageous amount ?
 
Some non-profits are quite profitable, but the way they work, their profit doesn't go to investors but has to be plowed back into mission related work.

or in the case of our local "not for profit" "catholic" hospital, the money plowed into the business accounts of its board members who all own advertising companies or media outlets. It's their cash cow. The hospital spends roughly $140/bed/day on advertising. That's one reason why a colonoscopy here is over $10k when across the state it's less than $4k.

"Not for profit" doesn't necessarily mean that no one profits.
 
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A bunch of you folks need to read the The Guardian and the Daily Mail in London England, every day.

Medical care over there is FREE.
Doctors work on a salary (none of that nasty profit motive)
Hospital stays are FREE
Medicine is FREE
Physical therapy is FREE
Medical devices are FREE

This should satisfy your complaints about us money grubbing, smart mouthed, american moron physicians and the greedy bastard hospitals..
I'm sure you will love it.
 
A bunch of you folks need to read the The Guardian and the Daily Mail in London England, every day.

Medical care over there is FREE.
Doctors work on a salary (none of that nasty profit motive)
Hospital stays are FREE
Medicine is FREE
Physical therapy is FREE
Medical devices are FREE

This should satisfy your complaints about us money grubbing, smart mouthed, american moron physicians and the greedy bastard hospitals..
I'm sure you will love it.

There is no FREE in this world.
 
or in the case of our local "not for profit" "catholic" hospital, the money plowed into the business accounts of its board members who all own advertising companies or media outlets. It's their cash cow. The hospital spends roughly $140/bed/day on advertising. That's one reason why a colonoscopy here is over $10k when across the state it's less than $4k.

"Not for profit" doesn't necessarily mean that no one profits.

This suggests that your state exerts weak oversight over the operation of non-profit boards (or that so far nobody has made the call to the IRS).

Is that 10k number actual reimbursed cost or is that the top-line charge-master entry for the procedure ?
 
Its not just about hospitals and what they make. Its about our health care. It should not be for profit.

Imagine for one min. if a fireman was only paid when or if there was a fire. To have health care for profit is a conflict of interest.

Now imagine if your doctor was only paid when you are healthy. Things would be different wouldn't they. I am not saying this should be the way it is, but just imagine if it was. But no we pay our doctors when we are sick. If I was a doctor I would want sick patients. A healthy patient I make no money from them.
 
A bunch of you folks need to read the The Guardian and the Daily Mail in London England, every day.

Medical care over there is FREE.
Doctors work on a salary (none of that nasty profit motive)
Hospital stays are FREE
Medicine is FREE
Physical therapy is FREE
Medical devices are FREE

This should satisfy your complaints about us money grubbing, smart mouthed, american moron physicians and the greedy bastard hospitals..
I'm sure you will love it.
I'll help them with the first article from a few days ago.

The NHS is on a ‘knife edge’ and there may be ‘unexpected disasters', a senior boss has said.
Paul Baumann, the health service’s finance chief, gave a stark warning after it emerged hospital waiting times are at their worst for six-and-a-half years.
It came as a report revealed the number of hospitals needing emergency government bailouts has doubled in 12 months.
The National Audit Office said 31 trusts had handouts last year, costing more than half a billion pounds.
MPs and health experts said the situation was ‘deeply alarming’.
Figures released yesterday show 3.2million patients are waiting for operations, scans and treatment – the most since April 2008.
This includes 37,712 waiting for surgery longer than the Government target of 18 weeks :eek:– nearly double the number in May 2010.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2824456/Full-extent-NHS-cash-crisis-revealed.html
 
Imagine for one min. if a fireman was only paid when or if there was a fire.

The fireman used to get paid from the moment he clocked in for his shift to the moment he clocked out. All the while he had to keep the fire in the boilers well stoked :)

If you meant firefighter, yes a few professional firefighters get paid by the hour whether there is a call or not. Paid volunteers typically get paid when they get called out, true volunteers get a heartfelt 'thank you' from the county commissioner.

To have health care for profit is a conflict of interest.

How so, you mean I have a mechanism to get my patients sick ?

Now imagine if your doctor was only paid when you are healthy. Things would be different wouldn't they.

Yup, he would do his level best to get rid of you once you get sick. This has been tried before, didn't really work on a individual practicioner level. It does work with defined groups of patients when treated by a health system, e.g. an insurance that sells blocks of 100 heart failure patients to a hospital to manage their eventual death in the most cost efficent manner.

I am not saying this should be the way it is, but just imagine if it was. But no we pay our doctors when we are sick.

I also pay the plumber only when I have a leak to fix and not for all the years that my homes plumbing has been tight.

If I was a doctor I would want sick patients. A healthy patient I make no money from them.

You got that wrong. You make money of a patient who is sick enough to legitimately walk into your office but not so sick as to require too much work :yes: .
 
A bunch of you folks need to read the The Guardian and the Daily Mail in London England, every day.

Medical care over there is FREE.
Doctors work on a salary (none of that nasty profit motive)
Hospital stays are FREE
Medicine is FREE
Physical therapy is FREE
Medical devices are FREE

This should satisfy your complaints about us money grubbing, smart mouthed, american moron physicians and the greedy bastard hospitals..
I'm sure you will love it.

It's not free. Someone pays for it - in this case through taxes.

As Gary notes, it's also got long waiting lines for most services.
 
Is that 10k number actual reimbursed cost or is that the top-line charge-master entry for the procedure ?

Both numbers quoted were The original billing. IIRC...Anthem paid $7,800 (ish) here and $2900(ish) at Springfield. I avoid our local heal are system at all cost (heh) and go over to Springfield whenever possible. I can have a nice visit with family and friends and keep a lot of money in my pocket!

I'm due for the procedure soon and was in Springfield just last week so I stopped by and got a quote $3,900.

At $10,500 the charge here equates to almost $250/minute (and I was clean, no path was involved). Really? For a route everyday procedure? I ought to get to participate in an orgy with about 50% of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders for $250/min, :goofy:

I did get f***** though. Just in a different way.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing doctors or the healthcare system in general like many here are. I'm just pointing out that there is no "standard and customary" charge (outside the Medicare/Medicaid system) like a person might expect and/or feel there should be. And with today's high deductible plans, the consumer needs to remain vigilant and smart. Shop wisely.
 
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Both numbers quoted were The original billing. IIRC...Anthem paid $7,800 (ish) here and $2900(ish) at Springfield.

Sounds like either anthem is doing a poor job negotiating reimbursements or you still have one of these ancient plans that pays a fixed percentage of the charge. The only reason those silly numbers are on the charge master is because once in a blue moon someone with one of these plans walks through the door and you dont want to leave money on the table.

I'm due for the procedure soon and was in Springfield just last week so I stopped by and got a quote $3,900.

Suggests that the price springfield was doing the procedure for was not sustainable.

At $10,500 the charge here equates to almost $250/minute (and I was clean, no path was involved). Really? For a route everyday procedure? I ought to get to participate in an orgy with about 50% of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders for $250/min, :goofy:

I did get f***** though. Just in a different way.

Yeah, and no GoLytely or Phospho-soda with the cheerleaders.


And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing doctors or the healthcare system in general like many here are. I'm just pointing out that there is no "standard and customary" charge (outside the Medicare/Medicaid system) like a person might expect and/or feel there should be.

Oh, there are 'U&C' (usual and customary) charges for different areas. United healthcare paid a big class action settlement after it was found out that they were cooking the books on determining the U&C charges.

And with today's high deductible plans, the consumer needs to remain vigilant and smart. Shop wisely.

Yup, and a market like your town sounds ripe for someone to open up a private endoscopy center. But why would someone want to put his money at risk if the next politico who comes around can just issue an order capping your reimbursements at x% medicare ?

The key when shopping around is to get the actual contracted rates, not the top-line number provided by the facility. If your insurer is not willing to give you (the customer) that information, find an insurer who does.
 
Both numbers quoted were The original billing. IIRC...Anthem paid $7,800 (ish) here and $2900(ish) at Springfield. I avoid our local heal are system at all cost (heh) and go over to Springfield whenever possible. I can have a nice visit with family and friends and keep a lot of money in my pocket!

I'm due for the procedure soon and was in Springfield just last week so I stopped by and got a quote $3,900.

At $10,500 the charge here equates to almost $250/minute (and I was clean, no path was involved). Really? For a route everyday procedure? I ought to get to participate in an orgy with about 50% of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders for $250/min, :goofy:

I did get f***** though. Just in a different way.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing doctors or the healthcare system in general like many here are. I'm just pointing out that there is no "standard and customary" charge (outside the Medicare/Medicaid system) like a person might expect and/or feel there should be. And with today's high deductible plans, the consumer needs to remain vigilant and smart. Shop wisely.

Doctors /Hospitals / PT and all other medical related businesses that are close to areas with large union and , or government or education facilities will charge obscene rates because they know their patients have lavish medical benefits with tiny deductables / co pays and know they will not ***** at excessive charges....

Take a similar medical practice /hospital in the middle of Kansas with nothing but hard working people with limited or no health insurance and the rates for the same procedure will be 1/2 3/4 less....

Same service, same treatment same patient profile.

. Problem is those places that have been able to milk the masses, will not want to reduce fees as they are spoiled by getting paid grossly excessive payments and are not in touch with reality....

They are the ones who are really bitching about medicare /medicaid pre set rates as that will force them to provide competitive fees... IMHO.. YMMV..
 
No unions in this area, quite the opposite, it's about as red as red gets. Hell, it's Rush's hometown and that pretty much sums up the entire area!
 
No unions in this area, quite the opposite, it's about as red as red gets. Hell, it's Rush's hometown and that pretty much sums up the entire area!

Hmmm...

No schools, or thousands of government workers , or,postal workers ?..

There are more unions around then you can imagine... Or ever notice...
 
Take a similar medical practice /hospital in the middle of Kansas with nothing but hard working people with limited or no health insurance and the rates for the same procedure will be 1/2 3/4 less....

Tim lives in the middle of Kansas, or was it Missouri....

It is the other way around. Small cities with one hospital is where you get soaked. Anywhere big enough to support independent imaging and endoscopy centers you will see elasticity in pricing. If a large health plan has the option to cut a hospital out of its network, they can use that leverage to negotiate prices. If there is only one player in town, they risk losing subscribers if they cut lose a large provider group or hospital.
 
Tim lives in the middle of Kansas, or was it Missouri....

It is the other way around. Small cities with one hospital is where you get soaked. Anywhere big enough to support independent imaging and endoscopy centers you will see elasticity in pricing. If a large health plan has the option to cut a hospital out of its network, they can use that leverage to negotiate prices. If there is only one player in town, they risk losing subscribers if they cut lose a large provider group or hospital.


It would be interesting in knowing the population of Springfield versus the other city Tim and pricing in...:dunno:..
 
It would be interesting in knowing the population of Springfield versus the other city Tim and pricing in...:dunno:..

Its about 4 times the size and has two major hospitals that hate each other :wink2: .

Overall the number of healthcare dollars spent goes up if more and better medical facilities are available. For the individual service, the price tends to be lower, but people just consume more healthcare if more is available.
 
Its about 4 times the size and has two major hospitals that hate each other :wink2: .


That will do it.......

Altho that doesn't explain the 300% difference... I can see 20 -50-% higher..
 
Its not just about hospitals and what they make. Its about our health care. It should not be for profit.
.

I wonder why the best and brightest would chose medicine as a career path if they knew that someone would stop them from making a profit.
When I choose how to spend my working hours profit is not my only consideration. It is one of the things I consider.
I like taking care of my family, having toys and the time to play with them.

 
What I'm curious about is the column called "insurance adjustments" on my bills. They seem to amount to two thirds of the original charges. For example, my current bill shows charges totaling about $2175, insurance payments totaling $672, insurance adjustments totaling $1331, and the amount I owe totaling $172. I am on Medicare Parts A and B.

How come insurance adjustments are so large? You would think that clinics would have some idea of what they are going to get paid. Do the original charges really reflect the cost, or are they just hoping to get lucky? Or are Medicare patients a losing business for clinics?
 
What I'm curious about is the column called "insurance adjustments" on my bills. They seem to amount to two thirds of the original charges. For example, my current bill shows charges totaling about $2175, insurance payments totaling $672, insurance adjustments totaling $1331, and the amount I owe totaling $172. I am on Medicare Parts A and B.

How come insurance adjustments are so large? You would think that clinics would have some idea of what they are going to get paid. Do the original charges really reflect the cost, or are they just hoping to get lucky? Or are Medicare patients a losing business for clinics?

:yeahthat:
 
It's not free. Someone pays for it - in this case through taxes.

As Gary notes, it's also got long waiting lines for most services.
And there isn't here? My doctor is scheduled out four months for a physical. Two weeks to see a specialist, and three months out for minor surgery on my ear.
 
How come insurance adjustments are so large? You would think that clinics would have some idea of what they are going to get paid. Do the original charges really reflect the cost, or are they just hoping to get lucky? Or are Medicare patients a losing business for clinics?

The charges dont reflect the cost to perform. They reflect in most cases a multiple of the medicare 'allowable'. MC has a fixed price (allowable) for each service and part B will pay 80% of that number. By contracting with MC the provider is limited to collecting not more than the allowable.

The reason the top-line number is large is because for patients who have an insurer the provider doesn't participate with, the amount you can collect is a proportion of that top line number. If a practice participates with all insurers, the number is pretty meaningless as you always get whatever the rate is you contracted with the insurers for. Small insurers like union health funds often contract with large insurers like blue-cross or united to get access to their contracted network and predictable pricing.
 
The charges dont reflect the cost to perform. They reflect in most cases a multiple of the medicare 'allowable'. MC has a fixed price (allowable) for each service and part B will pay 80% of that number. By contracting with MC the provider is limited to collecting not more than the allowable.

The reason the top-line number is large is because for patients who have an insurer the provider doesn't participate with, the amount you can collect is a proportion of that top line number. If a practice participates with all insurers, the number is pretty meaningless as you always get whatever the rate is you contracted with the insurers for. Small insurers like union health funds often contract with large insurers like blue-cross or united to get access to their contracted network and predictable pricing.


So... The medical community as a whole, gets together and cooks up some astronomical fees for procedures, let's it circulate throughout the insurance industry and in a few years that number turns out to be the "standard" ...
Price fixing at it's finest.. And the patient gets SCREWED.....:mad2::mad2:..:mad:
 
So... The medical community as a whole, gets together and cooks up some astronomical fees for procedures, let's it circulate throughout the insurance industry and in a few years that number turns out to be the "standard" ...
Price fixing at it's finest.. And the patient gets SCREWED.....:mad2::mad2:..:mad:

There is no great meeting where individual practices agree to set their charge numbers. There is a wide range of charges, easily a factor of 5 between providers. Feel free to seek out a provider thatc charges at a level you are willing to pay and tell the others why you are not doing business with them. It's a free country, right ? Or do you want the nanny-state to set the price for you ? How about you have them set the price for eggs and cheese while they are at it.
 
There is no great meeting where individual practices agree to set their charge numbers. There is a wide range of charges, easily a factor of 5 between providers. Feel free to seek out a provider thatc charges at a level you are willing to pay and tell the others why you are not doing business with them. It's a free country, right ? Or do you want the nanny-state to set the price for you ? How about you have them set the price for eggs and cheese while they are at it.

I don't believe I've ever seen the prince until after the fact.
 
There is no great meeting where individual practices agree to set their charge numbers. There is a wide range of charges, easily a factor of 5 between providers. Feel free to seek out a provider thatc charges at a level you are willing to pay, it's a free country, right ? Or do you want the nanny-state to set the price for you ? How about you have them set the price for eggs and cheese while they are at it.

They already do for dairy products.... Just ask the USDA....:mad2::mad2::mad2:....:mad:
 
They already do for dairy products.... Just ask the USDA....:mad2::mad2::mad2:....:mad:

They set the price support for commodity quality product. They dont set the price for some small cheese makers product sold in specialty retail.
 
They set the price support for commodity quality product. They dont set the price for some small cheese makers product sold in specialty retail.

The subsidy determines the FINAL cost.....

You have lost a few notches on my (respect-o-meter) about you sir.....:rolleyes2::rolleyes2:.....:sad:
 
Have you ever asked for an estimate ? I write those all the time.

For what?

I've been accidentally hit in the head with a baseball bat (guy was warming up and went to grab the bat on the ground). Been bitten by a nasty spider. Had a Kidney Stone. Slammed my finger in a door and needed stitches. Broken my collar bone MX racing. Paramedics wanted to take me in to stitch up lip after a car crash (I refused service that time).

Other than that, I've never been to the Dr for anything. While projectile vomiting in extreme pain, doesn't seem like the appropriate time to negotiate.
 
A bunch of you folks need to read the The Guardian and the Daily Mail in London England, every day.

Medical care over there is FREE.
Doctors work on a salary (none of that nasty profit motive)
Hospital stays are FREE
Medicine is FREE
Physical therapy is FREE
Medical devices are FREE

This should satisfy your complaints about us money grubbing, smart mouthed, american moron physicians and the greedy bastard hospitals..
I'm sure you will love it.
And the wait for services just might kill ya. I will take our systems. I just wish more people could afford it.
There's good and bad out there. People you can work with and people you cannot. You do have the right to pick and chose; Well, mostly.
 
And there isn't here? My doctor is scheduled out four months for a physical. Two weeks to see a specialist, and three months out for minor surgery on my ear.

Conveniently, people who like the current US system tend to forget this.

My wife needed an x-ray on her knee recently. 3+ weeks to get the appointment..

Additionally, if the UK spent the same percentage of GNP on medical care that we do here in the US, waiting times would be way down.
 
The charges dont reflect the cost to perform. They reflect in most cases a multiple of the medicare 'allowable'. MC has a fixed price (allowable) for each service and part B will pay 80% of that number. By contracting with MC the provider is limited to collecting not more than the allowable.

The reason the top-line number is large is because for patients who have an insurer the provider doesn't participate with, the amount you can collect is a proportion of that top line number. If a practice participates with all insurers, the number is pretty meaningless as you always get whatever the rate is you contracted with the insurers for. Small insurers like union health funds often contract with large insurers like blue-cross or united to get access to their contracted network and predictable pricing.

That clears up the mystery. Thanks!
 
For what?

I've been accidentally hit in the head with a baseball bat (guy was warming up and went to grab the bat on the ground). Been bitten by a nasty spider. Had a Kidney Stone. Slammed my finger in a door and needed stitches. Broken my collar bone MX racing. Paramedics wanted to take me in to stitch up lip after a car crash (I refused service that time).

Other than that, I've never been to the Dr for anything. While projectile vomiting in extreme pain, doesn't seem like the appropriate time to negotiate.

The example given earlier was that of a colonoscopy. Same applies to routine care or elective imaging like back or knee MRIs and labwork. Dont just go where your orthopedic surgeon sends you, check out the prices, get estimates, negotiate. You wont have much luck with hospitals or large clinics in that regard, but any place that has an actual 'owner' will work with you on price. Cash is king, I have gotten payment for entire surgeries 'cash on the barrel'. For any provider that participates in medicare, the medicare allowable is pretty much the floor of what they are allowed to take by law.

But yes, if you end up in the ER you are at the mercy of the hospital and the different provider groups (ER, rads, cards, ortho) that provide coverage for that hospital. There have been some cases of 'doctors behaving badly' who attempt to squeeze unreasonable amounts out of patients who wandered into the ER. A cardiologist in NJ charged $30,000 for a simple ultrasound exam, some OB/GYNs tried to get $50,000 in surgical fees for an out of network cesarean section.

Generally, it is a good idea to get your health insurance with the market leader in a community and to familiarize yourself with their provider directory. If you know that the cardiology group of Dowie Cheatam and Howe PC is non-par with your insurance, then dont go to the cats and dogs hospital they cover. Unless you are in some authoritarian regime like NYC, you are in control where the ambulance brings you.

Now if you sign up for some cheap-ass out of state HMO just because their copay is $20 instead of $35, dont be suprised if all your emergency care ends up being out of network.

Many hospitals require all provider groups that provide emergency coverage to contract with all the insurance plans the hospital participates in. Call up the hospitals in your area and inquire whether they do that, if they don't, tell them that you wont use their services.



Is this the greatest system, of course not. If I provide you a service that I think is worth $125, what I want to do is to take $125 from you when you leave my office and leave it up to you to get the money back from your insurance. The way it works right now, in order to get my $125, I send your insurance company a bill for $300, 89 days later they send me an explanation of benefits that requires me to write off $200 and pay me $75. I then need to spend money on postage and printing to collect the $25 coinsurance from you. In the end I get my money 3-6 months late and 20% below what I calculated. Yes, there is a better way, and it is not the horse-manure we get shoveled from the current regime.
 
The example given earlier was that of a colonoscopy. Same applies to routine care or elective imaging like back or knee MRIs and labwork. Dont just go where your orthopedic surgeon sends you, check out the prices, get estimates, negotiate. You wont have much luck with hospitals or large clinics in that regard, but any place that has an actual 'owner' will work with you on price. Cash is king, I have gotten payment for entire surgeries 'cash on the barrel'. For any provider that participates in medicare, the medicare allowable is pretty much the floor of what they are allowed to take by law.

But yes, if you end up in the ER you are at the mercy of the hospital and the different provider groups (ER, rads, cards, ortho) that provide coverage for that hospital. There have been some cases of 'doctors behaving badly' who attempt to squeeze unreasonable amounts out of patients who wandered into the ER. A cardiologist in NJ charged $30,000 for a simple ultrasound exam, some OB/GYNs tried to get $50,000 in surgical fees for an out of network cesarean section.

Generally, it is a good idea to get your health insurance with the market leader in a community and to familiarize yourself with their provider directory. If you know that the cardiology group of Dowie Cheatam and Howe PC is non-par with your insurance, then dont go to the cats and dogs hospital they cover. Unless you are in some authoritarian regime like NYC, you are in control where the ambulance brings you.

Now if you sign up for some cheap-ass out of state HMO just because their copay is $20 instead of $35, dont be suprised if all your emergency care ends up being out of network.

Many hospitals require all provider groups that provide emergency coverage to contract with all the insurance plans the hospital participates in. Call up the hospitals in your area and inquire whether they do that, if they don't, tell them that you wont use their services.



Is this the greatest system, of course not. If I provide you a service that I think is worth $125, what I want to do is to take $125 from you when you leave my office and leave it up to you to get the money back from your insurance. The way it works right now, in order to get my $125, I send your insurance company a bill for $300, 89 days later they send me an explanation of benefits that requires me to write off $200 and pay me $75. I then need to spend money on postage and printing to collect the $25 coinsurance from you. In the end I get my money 3-6 months late and 20% below what I calculated. Yes, there is a better way, and it is not the horse-manure we get shoveled from the current regime.

In my adult life, I've never paid for healthcare any way but cash. Well, I wrote a check for the spider bite.
 
Conveniently, people who like the current US system tend to forget this.

My wife needed an x-ray on her knee recently. 3+ weeks to get the appointment..

Additionally, if the UK spent the same percentage of GNP on medical care that we do here in the US, waiting times would be way down.

In Southern California? That is surprising. I could get an x-ray here within a matter of a few hours, and I would expect you to have many more choices. I can get in to see my PCP the same day for anything abnormal. Sure, for an annual physical he's scheduling a month out, but that's because he keeps room on his schedule for people who need to see him. People in the the UK and Canada wait months for urgent procedures.

Many of the doctors I know are getting out of the biz. I assure you it isn't because they're tired of making megabucks.:nonod:
 
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