"Solution" for Inadvertent IMC?

[mjburian]

I went flying with my dad/instructor the other day, just for some recurrent training. It's been 4 months since I took my checkride, and I hadn't done many of the maneuvers since then... so I thought it might be a good idea (and fun) to have him put me through the wringer.

I was also lucky enough to get .3 hours of actual IMC (which was weird, fun, scary, etc). The problem was, even though I had heard (and knew) that there was no reason to look outside, I couldn't help but try to squint out a reference from the gray. I did OK overall, but I did begin a slight right turn without realizing it. Had my dad not been with me, I wonder if that was the start of my 138 seconds. But, I always seemed to do pretty well while under the hood.

So, the thing I have been wondering since that flight is whether or not putting on the hood would help a VFR pilot that inadvertently encounters IMC. Really, the only thing it might do is focus your attention on the instruments and "remind" you to not bother looking out the window (which seemed to be the cause of my issue).

Thoughts?

 

[Skip Miller]

If I am flying VFR I don't have the hood handy. The lack of attention to business (i.e., flying) while looking for the hood could be fatal.

Get your Dad to teach you to perform the PTS tasks for a private pilot without the hood. Problem solved. Better yet, start your IR.

-Skip

(VFR pilot. Waiting for the stars, moon, and checkbook to align to start my IR.)

 

[TknoFlyer]

Nah, just focus on the instruments.

 

[gprellwitz]

And how would you then know you were out of the clouds?

 

[rottydaddy]

In the time it would take you to find the hood and put it on you could probably execute a 180.

If you're really in zero visibility all of a sudden, doing anything other than flying on the instruments will very likely get you disoriented.

And if you're wearing the hood you won't know when you're in the clear... and you won't see any traffic or obstructions. Very bad idea, IMHO.

 

[sba55]

It's great that you got to practice this.

This gives me an opportunity to repeat what I've been saying for a long time - there is no excuse for a VFR pilot who can't fly straight and level in IMC. It's _not_ difficult, and it's a vital skill. If one can't do it, then it's practice time, IMO. It's really just a mental game.

-Felix

 

[RotorAndWing]

I think the solution is to have enough situational awareness not to get into IMC in the first place.

 

[jesse]

It's great that you got to practice this.

This gives me an opportunity to repeat what I've been saying for a long time - there is no excuse for a VFR pilot who can't fly straight and level in IMC. It's _not_ difficult, and it's a vital skill. If one can't do it, then it's practice time, IMO. It's really just a mental game.

-Felix

Maybe it's just because I'm from the video game flight simulator generation...I've always considered flying in IMC as being pretty simple. Ignore what you feel and control a very easy video game in front of you.

 

[sba55]

Maybe it's just because I'm from the video game flight simulator generation...I've always considered flying in IMC as being pretty simple. Ignore what you feel and control a very easy video game in front of you.

Exactly. It's very simple and more a mental game than anything else.

I didn't have a problem with it as a new PP, but had I had doubt about my ability to fly in IMC, I would have addressed those ASAP.

Felix

 

[mjburian]

If I am flying VFR I don't have the hood handy. The lack of attention to business (i.e., flying) while looking for the hood could be fatal.

Get your Dad to teach you to perform the PTS tasks for a private pilot without the hood. Problem solved. Better yet, start your IR.

-Skip

(VFR pilot. Waiting for the stars, moon, and checkbook to align to start my IR.)

Unfortunately, I forgot to mention my concerns regarding what happens during the time I am trying to reach for the foggles. This is really just a question for discussion. After speaking with my dad about it, his thoughts are that it's a "horrible idea" for reasons that make sense, but still don't put my "reaction to being in the clouds without having a real solid instrument education behind me" feelings at ease.

I appreciate the thought about IR training. I am considering it, but I know that based on where I am right now it would take me 1.5-2 years to finish it (time/money/commitment). Not that it wouldn't be worth starting, but I still feel like a "new" pilot and am still having a great time exercising my privileges to fly VFR.

I'm not sure what you mean about performing the PTS without the hood... do you maybe mean *with* the hood?

 

[mjburian]

And how would you then know you were out of the clouds?

The original thought, which seems to be getting nothing but a negative response, was that I'd rather be "in the clear" while wearing the hood than be distracted by trying to look through the clouds.

Like I said, it was my first IMC experience and I couldn't help but fixate on outside. Quite a big change from when I started training, I must say. After playing Flight Simulator for years, my dad's biggest challenge was trying to get my eyes outside the cockpit. Now he's telling me to stop trying to see anything but the instruments. I get the distinction... I'm just wondering if it's easier to "put on the blinders" for a normal VFR pilot.

 

[mjburian]

I think the solution is to have enough situational awareness not to get into IMC in the first place.

Sounds like a great idea to me. So how is it that so many end up inadvertently in IMC? All I'm saying is that I don't consider myself invincible to occurrences such as this.

 

[mjburian]

Maybe it's just because I'm from the video game flight simulator generation...I've always considered flying in IMC as being pretty simple. Ignore what you feel and control a very easy video game in front of you.

I have *always* been pretty good at video games (especially flight simulators) compared to others I know. My problem is that "normal" simulators don't have the ability to give you spacial disorientation. At one point, my dad asked me to climb at 500 fpm... as I started to descend at about the same rate, I noticed the VSI wasn't making sense to me (why does the instrument say I'm descending, when I'm obviously?! climbing). It's not to say that I couldn't have survived on my own (although I wouldn't be cocky enough to assume that I would)... just that it was *way* harder for me than doing the same thing with the hood on.

 

[dmccormack]

I have *always* been pretty good at video games (especially flight simulators) compared to others I know. My problem is that "normal" simulators don't have the ability to give you spacial disorientation. At one point, my dad asked me to climb at 500 fpm... as I started to descend at about the same rate, I noticed the VSI wasn't making sense to me (why does the instrument say I'm descending, when I'm obviously?! climbing). It's not to say that I couldn't have survived on my own (although I wouldn't be cocky enough to assume that I would)... just that it was *way* harder for me than doing the same thing with the hood on.

Maybe some people can transfer 100% of their experience from Desktop Flight Sims to IMC, but for the rest of humanity it is a dangerous delusion.

The flight sim panel takes up 2/3 of a monitor because the other cues -- visual, auditory, equilibrioception -- are missing or greatly altered.

For most new IFR pilots, the vast majority of the time spent under the hood is aimed at training the mind to exclude the majority of normal sensory data.

This is why it's critical for IFR trainees to expereince actual conditions through a variety of cloud forms. The changes in sounds, sense of light angle, and even apparent direction of gravity are all spoofed when flying in clouds in a way not experienced when flying under the hood.

Postscript: The swirling forms, light, and movement on the windscreen in clouds and rain naturally draw the eye -- we recognize movement better than we stare at unmoving objects (ask any hunter). This is why the hood seems to offer some sense of comfort. Better to acquire the discipline to ignore the show and focus on what's important.

 

[Ted]

Marty, I think you just saw why it's important for people to get experience in actual IMC. I have a friend who'd talked about using a hood when you get into actuals because it puts you in a familiar environment that forces you to not look outside. Personally, I don't like the idea at all for the reasons mentioned above.

First thing, you need to make sure you don't get into IMC. That is not to difficult to do. Second, if you want to fly in the kinds of situations that might get you into IMC, you need to get an instrument rating. I see no problem with wanting to stay a private pilot who flies on sunny days, but if that's what you want to do then you need to make sure the days you fly are not days when you're going to encounter IMC and accept that limitation.

So, the solution is to pick your days so it doesn't happen, or get your IR.

 

[fgcason]

The original thought, which seems to be getting nothing but a negative response, was that I'd rather be "in the clear" while wearing the hood than be distracted by trying to look through the clouds.

If you're doing hood work properly, what is the difference between being in the clouds without the hood vs in the clear with it on? You still can't see what's going on outside. The hood goes from something strapped to your head to something laying over the windows. I had a horrific case of the leans for about 20 minutes with the hood on in severe VMC...then we started maneuvering. Once you get the leans, your this-end-up survival instinct is totally happy telling you to roll upside down and establish a pegged rip the wings off VSI indication.

Like I said, it was my first IMC experience and I couldn't help but fixate on outside. Quite a big change from when I started training, I must say. After playing Flight Simulator for years, my dad's biggest challenge was trying to get my eyes outside the cockpit. Now he's telling me to stop trying to see anything but the instruments. I get the distinction... I'm just wondering if it's easier to "put on the blinders" for a normal VFR pilot.

I've been in actual IMC twice. IMHO, it's all about self discipline. You must ignore your feelings completely and do exactly what the instruments are telling you to do. Your entire universe consists of the needles on the panel and little else is of importance. If you're distracted by the big fuzzy milk jug out the window, you're not concentrating. You have to put all your emotions, feelings and desires aside and quit looking for something that isn't out the window until your peripherial vision shows you something that is distinct and constant enough to return to VMC flying. At least that's a portion of what I gathered from the experience.

As for putting the hood on for VFR-IMC encounter if I was to let myself get into that situation or ended up there: I'm going to likely be flying very low (probably <500 AGL) to keep under the cloud base and/or to stay in visual contact with the ground in reduced visibility. That is no place to be twisting myself around backwards to find something then try to put it on my head and adjust it to fit. In addition to the added disorientation, that takes at least 20 seconds of not flying the plane and by then I've probably already run into the ground. I'm better off keeping my head in the needles game until VMC presents itself again. Then again, that's just me and I'm pretty good at switching off my personal feelings and going completely into reality mode when things go bad.



Hmmm... Slight thread drift now that we're sort of on the subject of inexperience and IMC: When cruising along smooth in IMC with all the gauges fixed and not moving at all with the huge milk jug image out all the windows, do you experienced types ever suddenly feel like you're not moving at all? At one point everything was just fine then suddently I felt like I was sitting stationary on the ground with the engine running and the ASI twisted around showing 110 kts. It was downright disturbing until I intentionally made the needles move a little again. I knew the reality of the situation and what to do however the stationary feeling was just as bad, if not worse, than the leans.

 

[Skip Miller]

I'm not sure what you mean about performing the PTS without the hood... do you maybe mean *with* the hood?

I meant go with your father/instructor into IMC and get familiar with operating the plane to VFR PTS standards. For the purposes of finding a quick exit from IMC, of course.

You reported feeling very uncomfortable in the IMC situation. You should recognize it as a dangerous situation, but one that you are comfortable in your ability to resolve it.

-Skip

 

[Skip Miller]

Hmmm... Slight thread drift now that we're sort of on the subject of inexperience and IMC: When cruising along smooth in IMC with all the gauges fixed and not moving at all with the huge milk jug image out all the windows, do you experienced types ever suddenly feel like you're not moving at all? At one point everything was just fine then suddently I felt like I was sitting stationary on the ground with the engine running and the ASI twisted around showing 110 kts. It was downright disturbing until I intentionally made the needles move a little again. I knew the reality of the situation and what to do however the stationary feeling was just as bad, if not worse, than the leans.

Frank, I had the mental image of those military pilots in the arctic that landed unintentionally in very soft snow in zero viz.

-Skip

 

[RotorAndWing]

Sounds like a great idea to me. So how is it that so many end up inadvertently in IMC? All I'm saying is that I don't consider myself invincible to occurrences such as this.

It's called "pilot error" and should never happen to a pilot who is well prepared and has situational awareness. Same goes for CFIT (controlled flight into terrain)

Both inadvertent IMC and CFIT can be avoided.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Sounds like a great idea to me. So how is it that so many end up inadvertently in IMC? All I'm saying is that I don't consider myself invincible to occurrences such as this.

Going VFR over the top and finding the forecast for the other end is wrong. (what are the chances that a forecast is inaccurate, eh?)

Scud running and getting caught with a ceiling that is dropping and no where to go.

Flying in poor visibility (e.g. rain) and hitting a patch of no visibility (ever have that happen driving in fog?)

Getting fixated on getting there and not on the conditions that are deteriorating all around you.

Not seeing the IMC coming at night.

Flying over water and running into haze (day or night).

Others?

 

[sba55]

It's called "pilot error" and should never happen to a pilot who is well prepared and has situational awareness. Same goes for CFIT (controlled flight into terrain)

Both inadvertent IMC and CFIT can be avoided.

As a new PP (75 hours or so), I ended up in IMC without even knowing it. At night without a moon around, that's really easy to do and I only noticed it (probably after quite a while in IMC) because of the reflection from the position lights. At the time, I didn't think much of it because I knew that I could fly straight and level and descent/ascent in IMC all day long, so it wasn't a big deal and I got out of it just fine. A lot of planning had gone into that flight and I knew that there was a chance of inadvertently entering IMC since the conditions weren't perfect.

Of course, IMC can be avoided by not flying except on perfect CAVI days. If you actually want to make use of everything the VFR ticket allows you to do, however, it becomes much more likely that you'll end up in IMC at some point. That shouldn't be a big deal.

-Felix

 

[RotorAndWing]

If you actually want to make use of everything the VFR ticket allows you to do, however, it becomes much more likely that you'll end up in IMC at some point. That shouldn't be a big deal.

-Felix

Sorry, it is a big deal if you are not trained to handle it. How many accidents happen each year due to inadvertent flight into IMC? The NTSB data base is full of them.

Sorry guys, pilot error has no excuses. A VFR pilot taking off into marginal conditions or encountering marginal conditions inflight and not staying out is just plain dumb.

Just like a situation cited previously, flying to a destination on top and finding the destination obscured by weather. Is this a good reason to attempt a "scud run" and get in? Or should the pilot have had enough situational awareness to realize his weather was deteriorating and make a diversion?

An old friend once told me "Understand your limitations as well as the aircraft's limitations and you will insure your survival".

At the time, I didn't think much of it because I knew that I could fly straight and level and descent/ascent in IMC all day long, so it wasn't a big deal and I got out of it just fine. A lot of planning had gone into that flight and I knew that there was a chance of inadvertently entering IMC since the conditions weren't perfect.


-Felix

Not meaning to hammer on you, but you are increasing your odds of an accident with that sort of thinking. Accidents don't happen because of one event, but of several small events. Look at it like a chain, if you can break one link in the chain you can prevent the accident.

Let's say on this flight you anticipated IMC but went anyway. Let's also say that your vacuum pump was on it's last legs and decides to fail about an hour into the flight ( you can't predict that failure). As you enter IMC conditions you begin to loose your AI and DG, so now you are trying to fly partial panel (with no formal training). As you try to stay upright you decide to desend to find VFR conditions, however you can't find them now. Now what? Try to go lower? Try to do a 180 (on partial panel no less)?

Had you broke the chain by deciding to not take the chance of flying in inadvertent IMC you'd still be here and not a statistic.

 

[Everskyward]

Look at it like a chain, if you can break one link in the chain you can prevent the accident.

I would say that the ability to keep the airplane upright while flying on instruments would be another way to break a link in the accident change. Of course you should attempt not to put yourself in the position where you would need this skill but stuff happens.

Someone recently told me about their encounter with IMC as a VFR pilot. I'm not going to go into details because it's someone else's story, but she said that it was all that she could do to hold the wings level and start a shallow climb. She didn't even try using the radio for a while because she thought it would distract her. When she felt she had the airplane well enough under control she was finally able to contact Center who vectored her back to the place she had departed. When she called to thank them she said they were amazed and relieved that it had turned out OK since most stories like that do not. Afterward she figured out that she probably spent at least 30 minutes in actual. She thinks that she survived because she remembered that her #1 priority was maintaining control of the airplane. She didn't let other things like the radio (or reaching for a hood) distract her.

 

[rottydaddy]

Maybe I missed it, but nobody mentioned a critical factor in instrument flying, practice or otherwise: disorientation. I got a few seconds of "the leans" once, just by looking at the chart in a turn while in not-so-great VMC, and it was very disturbing. A few more seconds with wings level, flying on the 6-pack, and I was OK... but my point is that fumbling with anything just after finding oneself in the crud would be a bad idea.

The IR-rated pilots here can vouch for these effects, too, I'm sure... even when you've filed IFR and are current, and you're watching the panel as you've been trained, the weird effects from turning, climbing, accelerating or decelerating can sneak up on you.

This is the main difference between IFR flight in sims and in the real world.

 

[sba55]

Sorry, it is a big deal if you are not trained to handle it. How many accidents happen each year due to inadvertent flight into IMC? The NTSB data base is full of them.

Sorry guys, pilot error has no excuses. A VFR pilot taking off into marginal conditions or encountering marginal conditions inflight and not staying out is just plain dumb.

Just like a situation cited previously, flying to a destination on top and finding the destination obscured by weather. Is this a good reason to attempt a "scud run" and get in? Or should the pilot have had enough situational awareness to realize his weather was deteriorating and make a diversion?

An old friend once told me "Understand your limitations as well as the aircraft's limitations and you will insure your survival".



Not meaning to hammer on you, but you are increasing your odds of an accident with that sort of thinking. Accidents don't happen because of one event, but of several small events. Look at it like a chain, if you can break one link in the chain you can prevent the accident.

Let's say on this flight you anticipated IMC but went anyway. Let's also say that your vacuum pump was on it's last legs and decides to fail about an hour into the flight ( you can't predict that failure). As you enter IMC conditions you begin to loose your AI and DG, so now you are trying to fly partial panel (with no formal training). As you try to stay upright you decide to desend to find VFR conditions, however you can't find them now. Now what? Try to go lower? Try to do a 180 (on partial panel no less)?

Had you broke the chain by deciding to not take the chance of flying in inadvertent IMC you'd still be here and not a statistic.

I mostly agree with you.

That said, I think we just have a different preference in regards to where to break the chain. Personally, I think every pilot should be able to fly in IMC, and so my attempt at breaking the chain centers around being comfortable in IMC.

There are plenty of situations where you cannot know for sure whether or not you'll encounter IMC. You can choose not to launch, or you can be confident that you can deal with IMC. Both valid options.

Felix

 

[RotorAndWing]

I mostly agree with you.

That said, I think we just have a different preference in regards to where to break the chain. Personally, I think every pilot should be able to fly in IMC, and so my attempt at breaking the chain centers around being comfortable in IMC.

There are plenty of situations where you cannot know for sure whether or not you'll encounter IMC. You can choose not to launch, or you can be confident that you can deal with IMC. Both valid options.

Felix

Flying IMC is not a video game. It takes a skill that has to be developed and maintained.

I simply cannot comprehend the attitude of "it's OK to go IMC" because a non rated, non trained individual "feels confident" in his ability. All it takes is one more link in the chain and you're hosed.

And I stand by my original post that anyone who goes inadvertent IMC is lacking situational awareness and using poor judgment.

Bottom line: If you want to fly IMC, get an instrument rating, stay proficient and do it legally.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Flying IMC is not a video game. It takes a skill that has to be developed and maintained.

I simply cannot comprehend the attitude of "it's OK to go IMC" because a non rated, non trained individual "feels confident" in his ability. All it takes is one more link in the chain and you're hosed.

And I stand by my original post that anyone who goes inadvertent IMC is lacking situational awareness and using poor judgment.

Bottom line: If you want to fly IMC, get an instrument rating, stay proficient and do it legally.

I have to agree with this attitude. It is not difficult to make sure one stays out of IMC. It does take careful planning and a willingness to scrub a flight when conditions are not good. I fly a lot, and I have never "inadvertantly" gotten into IMC. I do have the benefit of going IFR, though, so any flight not reasonably good gets filed. When VFR, I will not fly at any level where I have to fly around clouds, or too close to their bases.

The more pressing concern I have for the cavalier attitude of "it's ok to fly into IMC inadvertantly, just make sure you are comfortable," is that I am out there flying IFR in those same clouds, and I can't see you even if ATC does point you out to me. I have had many instances of that where ATC calls traffic to me 1-2 miles away at my altitude, and I am in solid IMC several hundred feet thick. That scares me. A thorough preflight planning, a conservative approach to the conditions, and a respect for the changes in weather may scrub some flights, but it is better than the alternative.

 

[sba55]

Flying IMC is not a video game. It takes a skill that has to be developed and maintained.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you're missing the point entirely.

No, you don't want to enter IMC intentionally if you're not rated. But that is _not_ what we're talking about. If you do _want_ to go into IMC, then yes, get an instrument rating.
There's no question that you can avoid IMC no matter what: just stay on the ground and never fly. It sounds silly, but that's what you're advocating. If you fly enough, and you fly when conditions aren't perfect, it's easy to end up in IMC _without_ planning for it, even if you're the wisest pilot who's ever flown.

I simply cannot comprehend the attitude of "it's OK to go IMC" because a non rated, non trained individual "feels confident" in his ability. All it takes is one more link in the chain and you're hosed.

And you know this how? Nobody said it was ok to go into IMC without being rated. Maybe pilot 1, who's received no formal training, is a much better pilot in IMC than pilot 2, who's received 150 hours of IFR training (I've met both). Point is - a good pilot will assess his skill and plan the mission around it.

And I stand by my original post that anyone who goes inadvertent IMC is lacking situational awareness and using poor judgment.

Bottom line: If you want to fly IMC, get an instrument rating, stay proficient and do it legally.

You're absolutely correct that you can break the accident chain by avoiding the activity all together. Given that this is not a realistic solution for some of us (because we trained for our ratings with the intent to make use of them), avoiding accidents comes down to flying only missions that one is capable of.

In the end, there's no need for us to argue. I respect your personal approach to this issue and it sounds like it's worked well for you. I have a different approach (and I'm not alone) and it's worked well for me, too.

I have to agree with this attitude. It is not difficult to make sure one stays out of IMC. It does take careful planning and a willingness to scrub a flight when conditions are not good. I fly a lot, and I have never "inadvertantly" gotten into IMC. I do have the benefit of going IFR, though, so any flight not reasonably good gets filed. When VFR, I will not fly at any level where I have to fly around clouds, or too close to their bases.

Good for you. As I said, that's a perfectly valid choice.

The more pressing concern I have for the cavalier attitude of "it's ok to fly into IMC inadvertantly, just make sure you are comfortable," is that I am out there flying IFR in those same clouds, and I can't see you even if ATC does point you out to me. I have had many instances of that where ATC calls traffic to me 1-2 miles away at my altitude, and I am in solid IMC several hundred feet thick. That scares me. A thorough preflight planning, a conservative approach to the conditions, and a respect for the changes in weather may scrub some flights, but it is better than the alternative.

I don't know where you're getting this "cavalier" attitude from. Nobody said, as far as I can tell, that it was ok to go into IMC. When you do get into IMC inadvertently, however, being comfortable is very important. What you consider "conservative" might be different than my assessment. It all depends on your proficiency.

The one important point is to have thought about the situation. The answer won't be the same for everybody, which is to be expected given that everybody's skills are different. That's really not news....

-Felix

 

[TMetzinger]

It's called "pilot error" and should never happen to a pilot who is well prepared and has situational awareness. Same goes for CFIT (controlled flight into terrain)

Both inadvertent IMC and CFIT can be avoided.

Not so, at least for inadvertent IMC, unless you eliminate night flying.

 

[TknoFlyer]

Not so, at least for inadvertent IMC, unless you eliminate night flying.

Quite. Here's a video of night IMC that caught me by surprise. I was flying IFR and local AWOS' had reported ceilings above my altitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuBYhzuFW9w

 

[gprellwitz]

The original thought, which seems to be getting nothing but a negative response, was that I'd rather be "in the clear" while wearing the hood than be distracted by trying to look through the clouds.

Like I said, it was my first IMC experience and I couldn't help but fixate on outside. Quite a big change from when I started training, I must say. After playing Flight Simulator for years, my dad's biggest challenge was trying to get my eyes outside the cockpit. Now he's telling me to stop trying to see anything but the instruments. I get the distinction... I'm just wondering if it's easier to "put on the blinders" for a normal VFR pilot.

If you're "in the clear" with a hood on, then you aren't looking for other planes. And, as has already been indicated, most pilots aren't able to safely enter the clouds, reach around to find and don a view limiting device and then correctly do the initial scan and interpretation of the guages without putting themselves in severe danger. Even for instrument rated pilots, there's a period of setting up the initial scan that takes intense concentration.

Not so, at least for inadvertent IMC, unless you eliminate night flying.

And that's why in some countries a standard pilot certificate is not enough to let you fly at night. You either require a special endorsement or even an instrument rating.

I think that the best thing to do if you inadvertently enter IMC is to engage the autopilot to level the wings. Then you can carefully work at doing a 180 or whatever is needed to get out of trouble. This of course presumes you're flying a plane with a working autopilot!

 

[gismo]

Hmmm... Slight thread drift now that we're sort of on the subject of inexperience and IMC: When cruising along smooth in IMC with all the gauges fixed and not moving at all with the huge milk jug image out all the windows, do you experienced types ever suddenly feel like you're not moving at all? At one point everything was just fine then suddently I felt like I was sitting stationary on the ground with the engine running and the ASI twisted around showing 110 kts. It was downright disturbing until I intentionally made the needles move a little again. I knew the reality of the situation and what to do however the stationary feeling was just as bad, if not worse, than the leans.

There are definitely times when the world outside just stops and it feels like you are stuck in one spot. For me this is most likely to occur in smooth stratus, especially at night. At that point it feels exactly like a video game.

 

[dmccormack]

There are definitely times when the world outside just stops and it feels like you are stuck in one spot. For me this is most likely to occur in smooth stratus, especially at night. At that point it feels exactly like a video game.

Stable stratus is one thing -- Towering Cumulus, nimbostratus, fog and the rest are all very different.

Thus my strong recommendation that IFR students get time in IMC flying through different cloud types.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Not so, at least for inadvertent IMC, unless you eliminate night flying.

Yes you can, it's called situational awareness. If you have to cancel your night flight because of limitations of yourself or your aircraft, then so be it.

If you want to be able to go in all weather conditions be rated and proficient to do it and have an aircraft equipped for it.

The other new "catch phrase" in aviation is "risk management". What I'm advocating is lowering your risk while others here are advocating raising it.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Stable stratus is one thing -- Towering Cumulus, nimbostratus, fog and the rest are all very different.

Thus my strong recommendation that IFR students get time in IMC flying through different cloud types.

Absolutely. The IFR environment is extremely fluid and can change rapidly.

Ground fog at night also comes to mind. It's easy to see the airport lights as you fly over the airport, but as you approach the runway at a 100 feet or so everything goes 0/0, going IMC at the last 50-100 feet before landing. Not a good place to be for a non experienced pilot.

 

[TknoFlyer]

And I stand by my original post that anyone who goes inadvertent IMC is lacking situational awareness and using poor judgment.

Bottom line: If you want to fly IMC, get an instrument rating, stay proficient and do it legally.

Yes you can, it's called situational awareness. If you have to cancel your night flight because of limitations of yourself or your aircraft, then so be it.
...
The other new "catch phrase" in aviation is "risk management".

Tim will speak for himself, but I didn't take his comment to be contrary to your advocacy of risk management. Rather, as my own experience has demonstrated, inadvertent IMC is just that: inadvertent.

I'll grant you it's difficult to justify IMC flight in daylight as inadvertent. ("How did you not see those clouds?") However, while daylight IIMC (my made up acronym for "inadvertent IMC") may be difficult to justify, night IIMC can happen easily. All it takes is a hazy night with no moon or high overcast blocking the light to prevent the pilot from seeing clouds at his altitude.

The IR definitely helps and I encourage folks to get one if they plan to use their plane for any significant XC work, but I'll stop short of saying a pilot experiencing IIMC at night is due to poor judgement or lack of situational awareness.

 

[TMetzinger]

Yes you can, it's called situational awareness. If you have to cancel your night flight because of limitations of yourself or your aircraft, then so be it.

If you want to be able to go in all weather conditions be rated and proficient to do it and have an aircraft equipped for it.

The other new "catch phrase" in aviation is "risk management". What I'm advocating is lowering your risk while others here are advocating raising it.

The key word is inadvertent, which, for a prudent pilot, means that after he's done his risk management and reduced the residual risk to an acceptable level, something still goes wrong. A prudent pilot will have already thought about what he will do when he has a forseeable problem, and will evaluate his options and promptly take action.

My point was that at night, it is impossible to completely remove the possibility of flying into a cloud you couldn't see, or losing the horizon due to atmospheric conditions or an illusion. Thus, it is impossible to completely remove the risk of inadvertent IMC at night except by staying on the ground. A wise pilot will know this, and have a plan on what to do (for VFR pilots, the best move is to execute a 180 degree turn on the instruments, gently and smoothly).

 

[RotorAndWing]

The key word is inadvertent, which, for a prudent pilot, means that after he's done his risk management and reduced the residual risk to an acceptable level, something still goes wrong. A prudent pilot will have already thought about what he will do when he has a forseeable problem, and will evaluate his options and promptly take action.

My point was that at night, it is impossible to completely remove the possibility of flying into a cloud you couldn't see, or losing the horizon due to atmospheric conditions or an illusion. Thus, it is impossible to completely remove the risk of inadvertent IMC at night except by staying on the ground. A wise pilot will know this, and have a plan on what to do (for VFR pilots, the best move is to execute a 180 degree turn on the instruments, gently and smoothly).

So what's the problem with a non instrument rated pilot staying on the ground?

Go read NTSB.gov and see how many "inadvertent flight into IMC" crashes happen each year.

I had a friend years ago that was not instrument rated but would routinely ask for flight following and continue in IMC conditions and tell the controllers he was in VFR conditions. His attitude was "I'm getting almost the same services from ATC as an IFR guy, so no big deal". He kept routinely pushing the limits because "he felt comfortable" with his abilities. I don't think I need to tell you how this story ends.

Guess my point here is if you want to have all weather capability then train for it, stay proficient and fly aircraft equipped to do the job. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and stay on the ground.

 

[AdamZ]

If I am flying VFR I don't have the hood handy. The lack of attention to business (i.e., flying) while looking for the hood could be fatal.

Get your Dad to teach you to perform the PTS tasks for a private pilot without the hood. Problem solved. Better yet, start your IR.

-Skip

(VFR pilot. Waiting for the stars, moon, and checkbook to align to start my IR.)

I agree 100%

 

[steingar]

First, if you are a VFR pilot flying at night without a very, very clear view of either ground lights or starlight, you should not be there. Enveloping darkness (flying under and overcast in a remote are for example) might as well be IFR. My one near-IFR experience (3 mile vis with a 4000 ft overcast over lake Michigan) ended with me in a 1500 ft/minute descent from 2000 ft; had I not quickly realized my predicament I wouldn't be writing this now. If you are a VFR pilot you need to see something to give you attitude, otherwise you must be on you instruments and you are pretty much flying IFR (can't see and avoid if you're watching instruments).

I must take exception to any VFR pilot flying in IMC for any length of time. Last time I inadvertently hit IMC I reverse course and landed. I met my pal Marty Bevill, who gave me a profound piece of wisdom. What every VFR pilot should be able to do is execute a 180 degree turn to get back into VMC. It works every time; if you fly from VMC into IMC reversing course should get you back into VMC.