Socata TB-20, thoughts?

[PilotAlan]

I am looking for a business airplane, and need more speed than the Cherokee 180 gives us. Also, my wife is short and can't see over the glareshield of the 180, much less anything from Cessna.

Tigers are on the list, due to great visibility, as are DA40s. The TB-20 seems to have a very low glareshield, and it looks like a pretty fast and capable aircraft.

Any feedback? Anyone know of a 140-160kt airplane with really good visibility?

 

[Pilawt]

Tiger. Simple airplane, very efficient, outstanding visibility over the low-set panel, good parts support, excellent type club ... and tremendously fun to fly.

 

[wabower]

Are you ignoring a big part of the fleet due to a seat cushion?

I am looking for a business airplane, and need more speed than the Cherokee 180 gives us. Also, my wife is short and can't see over the glareshield of the 180, much less anything from Cessna.

Tigers are on the list, due to great visibility, as are DA40s. The TB-20 seems to have a very low glareshield, and it looks like a pretty fast and capable aircraft.

Any feedback? Anyone know of a 140-160kt airplane with really good visibility?

 

[PilotAlan]

Are you ignoring a big part of the fleet due to a seat cushion?

No, the problem is yoke clearance.
In a Skyhawk and in our current 180, if she sits high enough that she can see over the panel, then the yoke its her in the legs and interferes with full travel.
It kinda sucks, 'cause she supports our aviation habit, but is limited in being able to enjoy it because she can't see what's ahead.

 

[TMetzinger]

Trinidad is a fine airplane. Try a mooney too! Diamond's are really a magic carpet as far as visibility goes.

 

[wabower]

Do you need two yokes? Both of mine have bolts behind the panel that remove easily.

No, the problem is yoke clearance.
In a Skyhawk and in our current 180, if she sits high enough that she can see over the panel, then the yoke its her in the legs and interferes with full travel.
It kinda sucks, 'cause she supports our aviation habit, but is limited in being able to enjoy it because she can't see what's ahead.

 

[sba55]

Do you need two yokes? Both of mine have bolts behind the panel that remove easily.

Good point. I think either a DA40 with an appropriately shaped cushion (so as to not interfere with stick travel) or a Bonanza with a throw-over yoke is the way to go.

-Felix

 

[PilotAlan]

Good point. I think either a DA40 with an appropriately shaped cushion (so as to not interfere with stick travel) or a Bonanza with a throw-over yoke is the way to go.

-Felix

Bonanazas are on the consideration list, but I've known people whose maintenance bills made their eyeballs bleed.
The joke about pricing Beech parts is to put a dollar sign in front of the part number.
That said, I am sure an esoteric plane like a Socata would probably have less salvage and aftermarket parts available, and could be a financial adventure.

The only issue with the Mooney is that my likely new job will require taking relatively heavy equipment cases. My lack of vertical development (read: short) along with the top loading baggage compartment could make life difficult.

 

[PilotAlan]

Also, what's the inside of a Cardinal like? A 177RG would be a pretty darn nice aircraft, but I've never sat in one and don't know what the visibility and glareshield height is like. Comparable to a 172, or lower?

 

[Areeda]

Also, what's the inside of a Cardinal like? A 177RG would be a pretty darn nice aircraft, but I've never sat in one and don't know what the visibility and glareshield height is like. Comparable to a 172, or lower?

The one Cardinal I flew in was very 172-ish inside. Big doors are nice.

Joe

 

[alaskaflyer]

Also, what's the inside of a Cardinal like? A 177RG would be a pretty darn nice aircraft, but I've never sat in one and don't know what the visibility and glareshield height is like. Comparable to a 172, or lower?

I would say better than a 182, worse than an early 172, maybe a bit better than a late-model 172. You should check out some photos on TAP or similar to get an idea.

One bonus is the panel slopes downwards on the right side, giving a bit better forward view for the right-seater.

Edit: found this as an example of what I'm trying to say.

 

[Pilawt]

Also, what's the inside of a Cardinal like? A 177RG would be a pretty darn nice aircraft, but I've never sat in one and don't know what the visibility and glareshield height is like. Comparable to a 172, or lower?

Cardinal interior is big, similar to a C-182 in width and length, if a little less headroom. The big doors and flat floor make for the easiest access in G.A. this side of a Breezy, but be careful opening them in a strong wind. Downside: chintzy plastic fascias.

Visibility is very good for a high-wing; lean forward just a bit and you're forward of the wing leading edge. The glareshield height is similar to a C-172, but many Cardinals have vertically-adjustable seats which help a lot.

One bonus is the panel slopes downwards on the right side, giving a bit better forward view for the right-seater.

Edit: found this as an example of what I'm trying to say.

That photo is of a '68 C-177. Later models (like the '78 C-177RG below) had a redesigned panel. I believe the change was in '76.

 

[Kaye]

I'm in a fractional lease on a TB-20. I absolutely adore the plane.....but I wouldn't own it. I've been in this lease for 5 yrs, and maintenance appears to be pricey, and down time can be frustrating. Since it's a lease, I'm not really involved, but i occasionally get a "whine" session from the owner even tho he takes exceptional care of the aircraft. This is the second TB-20 for the owner, so it might be a maintenance hog, but he obviously still loves the airplane.

Can't speak to your mission requirements as it's just me and sometimes the husband out on the next adventure. My husband calls it my "BMWer".

Kaye

 

[flyersfan31]

What do you mean by a "Business" airplane?

 

[PilotAlan]

What do you mean by a "Business" airplane?

By business airplane, I mean flying from Denver to the area between the Mississippi River, providing support to customers, most of whom are a significant distance from Part 121 service. Also, I expect bimonthy trips from Denver to Traverse City Michigan.

It would involve on-site visits and taking equipment and supplies, as well as demo equipment.
That means cases about the size of a typical large suitcase, but about 75lbs, plus typical clothing loads. Usually alone, sometimes with one passenger, so useful load is unlikely to be an issue, but I am looking for 140kt as a minimum speed.

Because this aircraft will also be used for personal trips, making sure the wife is happy is also important.

A Tiger would be minimally acceptable. Arrows are out because of glareshield height. Cirrus SR20/22 are on the list, as is the DA40. Bonanzas are a consideration, but high priced for 35 year-old aircraft, especially looking at the prices of Cirri and Diamonds.
I'm dying here, there are relatively few choices, but they are so different from each other.

 

[Trapper John]

By business airplane, I mean flying from Denver to the area between the Mississippi River, providing support to customers, most of whom are a significant distance from Part 121 service. Also, I expect bimonthy trips from Denver to Traverse City Michigan.

What kind of arrival reliability do you need? That area can be pretty unfriendly in the winter, and if you don't have de-ice, you can count on sitting out weather a fair amount of the time.


Trapper John

 

[PilotAlan]

What kind of arrival reliability do you need? That area can be pretty unfriendly in the winter, and if you don't have de-ice, you can count on sitting out weather a fair amount of the time.
Trapper John

Yeah, I've figured that in. I can get cheeeeap airfare from here to Chicago, then rent a car. But for most of the year I should be able to get in without ice protection.

If I'm successful enough at this venture, a FIKI aircraft
would be in the future. But for now, the max budget is around $120k.

 

[wsuffa]

I nearly bought a TB-21 when I was shopping. I settled on a Commander instead, but I would have bought either one - the "right" Commander came along first.

The TB20/21 are nice planes.

 

[Trapper John]

Yeah, I've figured that in. I can get cheeeeap airfare from here to Chicago, then rent a car. But for most of the year I should be able to get in without ice protection.

If I'm successful enough at this venture, a FIKI aircraft
would be in the future. But for now, the max budget is around $120k.

If I needed to do what you need to do, I'd be taking a hard look at Mooneys, especially M20Ks (231s) and splitting the equipment cases into smaller cases that fit the baggage door.


Trapper John

 

[flyersfan31]

If I needed to do what you need to do, I'd be taking a hard look at Mooneys, especially M20Ks (231s) and splitting the equipment cases into smaller cases that fit the baggage door.


Trapper John

High glare shield on Mooneys. Don't think wifey would like a Mooney panel in front of her.

 

[Trapper John]

High glare shield on Mooneys. Don't think wifey would like a Mooney panel in front of her.

You really think they're high? I never felt that way, but I'm 6'-2"...

Trapper John

 

[Dean]

My hangar partner has a Tiger he uses for his business trips and loves it. Fairly fast, cheap to own and fairly low fuel consumption. I have seen several on Barnstormers for less than $40K lately. One other thing, he is probably 5'5" or so.

 

[flyersfan31]

Apparently OPs wife is vertically-challenged.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

You just need to get creative.

http://biplaneforum.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1587

The wife sits up front and has a DVD player...

 

[flyersfan31]

If your max budget is $120k then you can forget about the following:

Diamond DA40
Cirrus SR20 (except maybe one with a runout, so add $25k to price)
Cirrus SR22

Good/Cheap/Fast -- pick 2.

in this case, the glareshield height restriction imposes another limit altogether.

I'm kind of stumped for ideas, other than the Tiger. Maybe a TwinComanche? I don't know off hand how high the glareshield is, but you can easily get one under budget, they hit your cruise targets while still burning a reasonable amount of gas. You could get a TurboTwinkie and fly high to get nice westerly winds. Mx might be more expensive. 2 engines, so if you stay proficient you have the vaunted "twin engined safety" (or not!).

 

[Commander Dave]

I'm obviously biased.

But IMHO the Commander is an awesome platform that will fit your needs as requested.

Great visibilty, 2 Doors, Wide cabin, Good looking, and Smoooth!!

 

[jesse]

If your max budget is $120k then you can forget about the following.

Good/Cheap/Fast -- pick 2.

I wouldn't say 120k is cheap. There are plenty of airplanes that can be bought with $120,000 that are good and fast.

 

[TMetzinger]

Taller wife?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If your max budget is $120k then you can forget about the following:

Diamond DA40

DA40's can be had for $120K, but only ones without an autopilot. They're generally the older, pretty well-worn ex-Embry Riddle CAPT planes and the like and have been used for a lot of flight training. Either make room for another $50K in the budget or go elsewhere.

Maybe a TwinComanche? I don't know off hand how high the glareshield is, but you can easily get one under budget, they hit your cruise targets while still burning a reasonable amount of gas. You could get a TurboTwinkie and fly high to get nice westerly winds. Mx might be more expensive. 2 engines, so if you stay proficient you have the vaunted "twin engined safety" (or not!).

The Twinkie would be good, but even the single-engine Comanche would fit the bill pretty well. Glareshield will be higher than the twin I think, and the cowl certainly longer, but it might work and would be worth a try. Come to a fly-in and have her sit in Ed's.

The Comanche was known as the "Poor Man's Bonanza" in its day, and still gives you the performance and comfort of a Bo without the semi-ridiculous price tag or legendary high Beech parts cost. I think Ed is doing around 160 knots in his Comanche 250 with tip tanks. $120K will give you plenty of money to buy a very nicely equipped Comanche 260 or Twin Comanche.

 

[Anthony]

I own a Tiger and occasionally use it for business. However, it only gets you, waht 20 KTAS over the Cherokee 180? I see 135 KTAS and flightplan for that en route. I really think you'll need to go retract to get enough of a speed difference to incur transaction costs. However, the Tiger is faster, fun to fly, and offers great visibility. Mine was based at KFTG for three years.

 

[Anthony]

My hangar partner has a Tiger he uses for his business trips and loves it. Fairly fast, cheap to own and fairly low fuel consumption. I have seen several on Barnstormers for less than $40K lately. One other thing, he is probably 5'5" or so.

Less than $40K and I doubt they actually fly. Even $50K won't get you much in avionics or condition.

 

[taters]

Deboniar?

These are really nice planes for X-C
You can get alot of these for a very reasonable price. 150 kts 14/gph. Plus you can always upgrade to FIKI and IO-550 down the road...or just go to an FIKI-A36(super-single) when you are able.

 

[flyersfan31]

I wouldn't say 120k is cheap. There are plenty of airplanes that can be bought with $120,000 that are good and fast.

Yeah, I wouldn't either say that's cheap either. But unfortunately most of the good, fast sub $120k planes have been ruled out because their instrument panels are too tall.

The good/cheap/fast came from a cocktail napkin scribble by a guy I used to work with. We were discussing combined cycle power plant construction. The aphorism holds true for many things.

I vote for a Bo. All planes are expensive to maintain. It's just a matter of degree. Cruise at maybe 170, lop burn maybe, what, 14-15gph? Decent load. Built like a brick shipyard. I don't know that their panels are low enough to suit, but DARNIT SOMETHING'S GOTTA GIVE HERE!!!!!

 

[flyersfan31]

Actually, upon further review I would say 120k IS cheap. Compared to, say, a new Matrix.

 

[Everskyward]

No, the problem is yoke clearance.
In a Skyhawk and in our current 180, if she sits high enough that she can see over the panel, then the yoke its her in the legs and interferes with full travel.
It kinda sucks, 'cause she supports our aviation habit, but is limited in being able to enjoy it because she can't see what's ahead.

What if she pushes the seat far enough back so that her legs are clear of the yoke? I guess you would need to experiment with different airplanes.

 

[flyersfan31]

Upon further further review, why the $120k limit? If this is for business reasons, with the bonus depreciation still in effect through year end the airplane can basically pay for itself. I know a few people who have bought new for that reason alone. It's a complete scam as far as I'm concerned, since I DON'T have a business reason, yet I dumped even more $$$$ into mine, and therefore the economy, than they did. But, them's the breaks. Anyway, you should be talking to an aviation tax guy ASAP. You could be sitting in a new G1000 DA40 or even a G36 - get a move on, boy!!!!!

 

[TMetzinger]

Get a Mooney. Put wife in the back and tell her to look out the side windows.

 

[PilotAlan]

Thanks guys. OK, one at a time:

Taller wife?

Not an option
If I get a new wife then I can't afford an airplane.

I vote for a Bo... Built like a brick shipyard. I don't know that their panels are low enough to suit, but DARNIT SOMETHING'S GOTTA GIVE HERE!!!!!

Asking prices and selling prices are different things. Lets say $145k asking.
I am looking to upgrade in about a year, so I am betting that values come down a bit more.

The Comanche was known as the "Poor Man's Bonanza" in its day... $120K will give you plenty of money to buy a very nicely equipped Comanche 260 or Twin Comanche.

I have considered a Comanche, what I don't know is what the panel height is like.

I own a Tiger and occasionally use it for business. ... I really think you'll need to go retract to get enough of a speed difference to incur transaction costs.

Keeping the 180 really isn't an option. For what it would cost me to get it set up for serious business use, it would ata least equal the transaction costs (autopilot, IFR GPS, etc)

Deboniar?

I really don't know anything about Debonairs. The throwover yoke would solve a LOT of problems. The question is, why is a similar year Deb cheaper than a similar year and equipped 35?

What if she pushes the seat far enough back so that her legs are clear of the yoke? I guess you would need to experiment with different airplanes.

In the Piper, when you roll the seat back it also gets lower.
I do need to get her in some other planes, but need to narrow things down a bit.

Upon further further review, why the $120k limit? If this is for business reasons, with the bonus depreciation still in effect through year end the airplane can basically pay for itself. ... get a move on, boy!!!!!

Believe me, I wish I had enough income to pull that off. The first year bonus depreciation on a 2009 DA40 would be significantly more than my income. Unfortunately I don't have a company with employees and such where the gross income and depreciation is high enough to offset the expense.

Thanks everyone! I am trying to cull the collective knowledge of this incredible group.

 

[wabower]

Not selling anything here, but my plane (older Cessna 180) provides what you want at affordable prices. Voluminous back end, easy seat removal for the crates, easy loading access through big doors, low panel, front seats track way back, yoke can be mounted 180 deg from original to create additional 7" inches of leg clearance.

And when you get home, it's great fun.

 

[PilotAlan]

Voluminous back end, easy seat removal for the crates, easy loading access through big doors, low panel, front seats track way back, yoke can be mounted 180 deg from original to create additional 7" inches of leg clearance.

???? You turn the yokes upside down?
Do you know if that's legal, and is it a 180 thing? If you can do that with any plane, then that may change some things

Of course the other option is to say the hell with it and just get a 195