SoCal / KWHP departure routing question

[sleeper-319]

Got a SID/routing question I’m hoping someone can help with.

Departing WHP headed to the Bay Area (LVK). The WHITE1 departure has a climbing right turn to VNY, then a climbing left turn *back to VNY* from where you can depart on course when above the MEA. There isn’t an airway the way I’d prefer to go.

I prefer to fly over the valley rather than over the hills; usually a smoother ride, more margin & better options in the event of an emergency. So I’d file something like KWHP-LHS-SMONE-KLVK.

• Should I expect to be vectored from VNY to LHS? And if so, then at what altitude? Will the MVA be similar to the nearby MEAs (ie around 7000’)?
• Or will ATC expect me to fly the SID as published, then do a course reversal at VNY, fly to FIM, then LHS (or GMN), then as filed?

Mostly I’m wondering what I’ll actually get cleared for, then whether I’ll be vectored somewhere else anyway. Departure time will be late afternoon on a weekday (so busy). Thanks.

 

[camorton]

You might mention what type of aircraft you are flying. Could make a difference, but probably not much in this case.

All IFR departures are from runway 30 at WHP. You'll never get a departure to the south because BUR and VNY are in the way. The ODP will have you turn left to 260 and then you'll get radar vectors out over the Newhall pass and the Santa Clarita valley before you're cleared on course. It's the safest route and roughly the same one you'd take if you were VFR. They won't send you out west because that just puts you in the way of traffic being vectored onto the Burbank ILS, and there really is no reason to do that.

If you're departing during busy periods and/or IFR conditions, be prepared for a potentially looooong hold for release. Aircraft on the ground at WHP are lowest priority for ATC. Sometimes you get lucky, though. If you can depart VFR, I'd do it and pick up your clearance south of GMN or LHS. The May Gray/June Gloom conditions around here usually burn off by mid-day so you usually can depart VFR if you want to.

C.

 

[sleeper-319]

Super helpful. Thanks.

 

[mr_happyland]

I’m based at WHP and to add to the previous reply, I’ve always received vectors by the time I’m outbound on the 325 radial. Never had to fly the entire procedure.

If you depart after 8am, plan on waiting a little while for release if VFR isn’t an option.

 

[sleeper-319]

Thanks. So far, I do that trip fairly regularly, and so far, I’ve managed to get out VFR every time, but I figure eventually that luck will run out. The clouds seem to have been hanging out later in the day this week too.

Anyhow, yes, the departure procedure itself is easy enough to understand, I just figured there’s no way I’d fly the full thing before they vectored me, and that it’s pretty inefficient to bring me all the way back to VNY before heading north again. I was looking to understand “the way it always works” vs the way it’s published, and whether there’s any special routing I should file to make things easier. You both have provided the missing info… that I should expect to be vectored sometime after the outbound on 325. Thanks.

Also, to camorton’s earlier unanswered question… it’s a Mooney M20J.

 

[luvflyin]

I’m based at WHP and to add to the previous reply, I’ve always received vectors by the time I’m outbound on the 325 radial. Never had to fly the entire procedure.

If you depart after 8am, plan on waiting a little while for release if VFR isn’t an option.

And @camorton , I was a Controller there a long time ago. A departure going out over LHS would never happen. Traffic to points Northwest, like LVK would go over GMN. But things change. Better Radar coverage might make it easier now. Have either of you ever got a via LHS?

 

[mr_happyland]

And @camorton , I was a Controller there a long time ago. A departure going out over LHS would never happen. Traffic to points Northwest, like LVK would go over GMN. But things change. Better Radar coverage might make it easier now. Have either of you ever got a via LHS?

I’ve flown IFR up the central valley via LHS multiple times

 

[Htaylor]

And @camorton , I was a Controller there a long time ago. A departure going out over LHS would never happen. Traffic to points Northwest, like LVK would go over GMN. But things change. Better Radar coverage might make it easier now. Have either of you ever got a via LHS?

There seems to be some sort of DP over LHS. I used to fly the WAYVE1 arrival and frequently had opposing traffic at LHS. Most often a FedEx feeder Caravan at 10k while I'm at 11k. But occasionally a Northbound RJ above me.

 

[luvflyin]

There seems to be some sort of DP over LHS. I used to fly the WAYVE1 arrival and frequently had opposing traffic at LHS. Most often a FedEx feeder Caravan at 10k while I'm at 11k. But occasionally a Northbound RJ above me.

There was always opposite direction traffic on V459 at those altitudes. But aircraft climbing up to LHS from the closer in airports like WHP/BUR/VNY would just not happen. I don’t think there are even any DP’s out of LAX that will do that. The Anaheim One out of SNA will do it.

 

[luvflyin]

I’ve flown IFR up the central valley via LHS multiple times

Have you done it via Direct LHS from a WHP departure?

 

[N1120A]

Have you done it via Direct LHS from a WHP departure?

I'd imagine you can get that if you can climb high enough. Big MVA between the SFV and LHS.

 

[sleeper-319]

I'd imagine you can get that if you can climb high enough. Big MVA between the SFV and LHS.

I don’t think it’s an MVA thing. The terrain is actually higher at GMN than LHS, and the MVA at LHS is 9000 (or 11000) depending on which controller you believe.

I’ve done this a bunch since asking my original question, and while I’m just a sample size of 1, they seem to always vector you to GMN on the WHITE1, and always vector you to LHS if you’re doing an approach at WHP from the Central Valley. At least at the altitudes I’ve flown there; 8000-13000.

 

[ahmad]

You might mention what type of aircraft you are flying. Could make a difference, but probably not much in this case.

All IFR departures are from runway 30 at WHP. You'll never get a departure to the south because BUR and VNY are in the way. The ODP will have you turn left to 260 and then you'll get radar vectors out over the Newhall pass and the Santa Clarita valley before you're cleared on course. It's the safest route and roughly the same one you'd take if you were VFR. They won't send you out west because that just puts you in the way of traffic being vectored onto the Burbank ILS, and there really is no reason to do that.

If you're departing during busy periods and/or IFR conditions, be prepared for a potentially looooong hold for release. Aircraft on the ground at WHP are lowest priority for ATC. Sometimes you get lucky, though. If you can depart VFR, I'd do it and pick up your clearance south of GMN or LHS. The May Gray/June Gloom conditions around here usually burn off by mid-day so you usually can depart VFR if you want to.

C.

So I did my very 1st So Cal IFR flight out of WHP couple of weeks ago.
Called ground to get my clearance twice and no response. Then called just for taxi and that was acknowledged. Instructed to taxi to Rwy 30 run up. After run up I got my clearance from ground freq. ATC said "readback correct. Hold your position there in the run up". So, I held and held and held. After 15 mins I inquired about it and ATC said well you never told me you were ready for departure.
Well, you told me to hold your position in the run up. That's what I have been doing. Then he said yes but you have to tell me you are ready for departure so I can get your IFR release from So Cal.

This was interesting and frustrating somewhat. So, I tell him I am ready and been ready. So, I get instructed to taxi and hold short of 30. It took another 10 mins before he was able to get my IFR release.

Flying IFR out of WHP can be very long you are correct.
The flight was great though. WHP1 departure. TEC route to SNA and shot the ILS 20R. That was fun but super busy.
Getting out of SNA was even crazier. Literally held short for solid 25 mins before I was cleared for take off.

 

[sleeper-319]

I've found the WHP controllers to be pretty great in the last few years. Weird that they didn't acknowledge the clearance request. I've found that they like to get me taxi'd to the runup, then give me the clearance there. But they always ack. Sometimes **** happens I guess.

If they're being friendly, ground will tell you "advise tower when ready for IFR release" but generally you do gotta tell em when you're ready. More often than not I'm released pretty quick, but sometimes you do wait a while. Worst wait was about a half hour.

 

[ahmad]

I've found the WHP controllers to be pretty great in the last few years. Weird that they didn't acknowledge the clearance request. I've found that they like to get me taxi'd to the runup, then give me the clearance there. But they always ack. Sometimes **** happens I guess.

If they're being friendly, ground will tell you "advise tower when ready for IFR release" but generally you do gotta tell em when you're ready. More often than not I'm released pretty quick, but sometimes you do wait a while. Worst wait was about a half hour.

flew out of there a bunch lately. both controllers have been good to me. that day was just weird and a bit of miscommunication. I wasn't expecting to ask for ifr release from a towered field plus was asked to hold my position. atc was thinking I'd let him know when I am ready and ask for release.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Getting out of SNA was even crazier. Literally held short for solid 25 mins before I was cleared for take off.

Used to practice the LOC Backcourse during Santa Ana wind conditions... made the mistake of landing one night and had a similar wait.... never did that again...

A fun approach in that area is the VOR-B into Fullerton... And the LOC RWY 25 into KHHR... sometimes you're wing to wing with some big iron on its way into LAX.

Did you make it up to KCMA?

 

[ahmad]

Used to practice the LOC Backcourse during Santa Ana wind conditions... made the mistake of landing one night and had a similar wait.... never did that again...

A fun approach in that area is the VOR-B into Fullerton... And the LOC RWY 25 into KHHR... sometimes you're wing to wing with some big iron on its way into LAX.

Did you make it up to KCMA?

Yes. Did make it to CMA. It was awesome. Also flew to AVX, FUL, IZA. Flying in SoCal is fun but you better know what you are doing. ha

 

[Ventucky Red]

Yes. Did make it to CMA. It was awesome. Also flew to AVX, FUL, IZA. Flying in SoCal is fun but you better know what you are doing. ha

Yes, having your A-Game is a plus..