SoCal Based Malibu Pilots/Owners?

mswmsw

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mswmsw
I am thinking about stepping up from my Cherokee Six to a Piper Malibu, probably a 1985 to 1987 vintage model. I was wondering if there are any SoCal based Malibu Pilots/Owners, that would like to take me for a ride in their Malibu, and let me pick their brain for real world operational and cost-related information. I would be happy to share gas costs, be your safety pilot if you want to shoot a few approaches, and I will, of course, buy lunch too. I am based at LGB but am happy to fly my PA32 to your SoCal location for a chance at some real-world Malibu info. Thanks!
 
Get on the Plus One website and get ahold of Dave Eby (San Diego). Plus One has a Malibu in the club based at MYF. You might be able to arrange a flight and see what you think.
 
I know you don't want to hear this, but it is not the safest plane! 20 inflight breakups with 18 of them with the pre-1999 main spar update. So if you have to get one at least get one with the stronger wing. Also plan on high insurance, annual recurrent training and $10k-$20k annuals.
 
Visit MMOPA. Join. It is $250.00 per year and I will say that the $250.00 has saved me HUGE money in the almost two years of PA46 ownership.

There are two guys on call to answer question that are truly type experts. One posts here from time to time...Kevin Mead...

The informaton you are looking for is there. Ther are quite a few very active PA46 guys in SoCal.
 
Visit MMOPA. Join. It is $250.00 per year and I will say that the $250.00 has saved me HUGE money in the almost two years of PA46 ownership.

There are two guys on call to answer question that are truly type experts. One posts here from time to time...Kevin Mead...

The informaton you are looking for is there. Ther are quite a few very active PA46 guys in SoCal.


Good idea to join MMOPA.

Not such a great idea to get advice from Kevin Mead on whether or not to buy... He does well being the "go to" guy nationwide to fix the myriad problems the PA46 has. My cynical view is that he is going to encourage you to get one, so he can gain you as a customer later.
 
Good idea to join MMOPA and .

Not such a great idea to get advice from Kevin Mead on whether or not to buy... He does well being the "go to" guy nationwide to fix the myriad problems the PA46 has. My cynical view is that he is going to encourage you to get one, so he can gain you as a customer later.

Not mine.

Kevin is retired, has sold the shop and moved to Maine. Tony Beauchamp (spelling) now runs the shop in Hutchens.

Kevin is the on call guy for MMOPA. He also flies a bird in the year range you are shopping. I venture he will not advise you on anything but the realities of PA46 onwership.

I wish you well in your search. I have been very happy with the Matrix I fly.
 
It's no secret that I'm not a Malibu fan, but I also see the appeal of the aircraft. My primary concern would be the high engine failure rate for the fleet over the in-flight breakups. However, the plane does glide well.
 
It's no secret that I'm not a Malibu fan, but I also see the appeal of the aircraft. My primary concern would be the high engine failure rate for the fleet over the in-flight breakups. However, the plane does glide well.

And to think that I heard you were stepping up.

I'm afraid that I'm a lot like my father. He seemed to talk people out of a purchase of even his own sales aircraft.

The Malibu is a very complex and capable aircraft. It will require a higher level of maintenance and involvement on your part to keep it reliable and to keep costs down.

Let me know if I can talk you out of this!
 
On the MMOPA website in the Marketplace Tab there is a Nice 1986 Malibu in Los Angeles for sale.
 
i assume you've got a hangar door that will fit, before going any further ?

piper would have sold a ton more of these with a 41ft wingspan even if performance suffered.
 
I sat in a 2001 Meridian for the first time on Saturday at the AOPA fly in.
I am too big for this bird. With the seat all the way down my head hit the ceiling and the seat would not go back far enough for my legs. Right next to the Meridian I sat in a new 2014 TBM900. Wow it was very nice. It was like sitting in a leather lounge chair. There were big windows all around.
 
I sat in a 2001 Meridian for the first time on Saturday at the AOPA fly in.
I am too big for this bird. With the seat all the way down my head hit the ceiling and the seat would not go back far enough for my legs. Right next to the Meridian I sat in a new 2014 TBM900. Wow it was very nice. It was like sitting in a leather lounge chair. There were big windows all around.

That is a important point. If you are used to flying in a PA32, you will probably be disappointed in the payload and baggage space of the Malibu.
 
And to think that I heard you were stepping up.

Perhaps you missed that it was my April Fool's joke for the year. ;)

Like I said, I see the appeal in the plane. I'm just not a big fan. The 310 isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
 
Saratoga TC would be a nice option to move up to if you need the room.
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Kevin, meet Insane...Insane...meet Kevin Mead.



Good idea to join MMOPA.

Not such a great idea to get advice from Kevin Mead on whether or not to buy... He does well being the "go to" guy nationwide to fix the myriad problems the PA46 has. My cynical view is that he is going to encourage you to get one, so he can gain you as a customer later.

And to think that I heard you were stepping up.

I'm afraid that I'm a lot like my father. He seemed to talk people out of a purchase of even his own sales aircraft.

The Malibu is a very complex and capable aircraft. It will require a higher level of maintenance and involvement on your part to keep it reliable and to keep costs down.

Let me know if I can talk you out of this!
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Kevin, meet Insane...Insane...meet Kevin Mead.

Ah, yes, the famous Kevin Mead. Very pleased to meet you Sir :D

I'm sure you can at least get a pre-buy inspection ;) Actually if I were getting a malibu I would probably ask you to do the inspection but that doesn't take away from the fact that you are probably a little biased in favor of the malibu and my point was that if someone is on the fence, asking you is probably not the way to get the most objective opinion on the malibu.
 
IMy primary concern would be the high engine failure rate for the fleet over the in-flight breakups.

That makes no sense at all. There are very few fatalities from engine failures in the PA46. There are a lot more from in-flight breakups. An engine out in the malibu is survivable because the plane glides well and since it is pressurized you're more likely to be high so you have more options. Also, it has an unfair reputation based on engine issues early on with the continental version that were since fixed.

Another way to put it is an engine out is survivable. The wings breaking off is not.

The fact remains that the early malibus with the weaker wing spar are much more likely to have had an inflight breakup.
 
That makes no sense at all. There are very few fatalities from engine failures in the PA46. There are a lot more from in-flight breakups. An engine out in the malibu is survivable because the plane glides well and since it is pressurized you're more likely to be high so you have more options. Also, it has an unfair reputation based on engine issues early on with the continental version that were since fixed.

Another way to put it is an engine out is survivable. The wings breaking off is not.

The fact remains that the early malibus with the weaker wing spar are much more likely to have had an inflight breakup.

My background is engines, so that's what I think about. Your background is being insane, so I'm not sure what you think about. :D
 
I'm happy to see people get the airplane that they want. It's my job to tell you as much as possible about the airplane. It's the buyers choice to accept it.

The early 1986 Malibu listed in SoCal has been on the market for a while? I have had a lot of calls about it but have never had the chance to see it. I probably worked on it under another registration number in the past. The early 86 will always be one of my favorite versions of the PA46-310P model. I think there may have been about 90 of these early ships built that had the Gar Kenyon hydraulic pump and electric flaps.

Ted, thanks for the update. I may be slow but I think I figured that out early in your thread.
 
Ted, thanks for the update. I may be slow but I think I figured that out early in your thread.

I'm the slow one, then, since I didn't detect you were joking. :)
 
My background is engines, so that's what I think about. Your background is being insane, so I'm not sure what you think about. :D

Okay, good, you're an engine expert.

So perhaps you can enlighten me on something...

Let's talk about Piper Mirage's with the Lycoming TIO-540-AE2A. Assuming that the owner treats it well (never lets CHT's exceed 385 F, etc), and keeps it well maintained, why would a Piper Mirage be any harder on an engine versus another plane with a Lycoming 540? The engine doesn't know what plane it is installed in... My understanding is that the early malibus and then the first mirages both had issues with engine performance that were subsequently fixed (mostly due to training issues and how to operate the engines for the continentals, then quality control crankshaft issues for the first Lycomings). Can you tell me what specifically is in the design of the plane itself somewhere causes engines to eat themselves as is alleged time and time again?

Hope that is a sane enough question :D
 
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Okay, good, you're an engine expert.

So perhaps you can enlighten me on something...

Let's talk about Piper Mirage's with the Lycoming TIO-540-AE2A. Assuming that the owner treats it well (never lets CHT's exceed 385 F, etc), and keeps it well maintained, why would a Piper Mirage be any harder on an engine versus another plane with a Lycoming 540? The engine doesn't know what plane it is installed in... My understanding is that the early malibus and then the first mirages both had issues with engine performance that were subsequently fixed (mostly due to training issues and how to operate the engines for the continentals, then quality control crankshaft issues for the first Lycomings). Can you tell me what specifically is in the design of the plane itself somewhere causes engines to eat themselves as is alleged time and time again?

Hope that is a sane enough question :D
 
Okay, good, you're an engine expert.

So perhaps you can enlighten me on something...

Let's talk about Piper Mirage's with the Lycoming TIO-540-AE2A. Assuming that the owner treats it well (never lets CHT's exceed 385 F, etc), and keeps it well maintained, why would a Piper Mirage be any harder on an engine versus another plane with a Lycoming 540? The engine doesn't know what plane it is installed in... My understanding is that the early malibus and then the first mirages both had issues with engine performance that were subsequently fixed (mostly due to training issues and how to operate the engines for the continentals, then quality control crankshaft issues for the first Lycomings). Can you tell me what specifically is in the design of the plane itself somewhere causes engines to eat themselves as is alleged time and time again?

Hope that is a sane enough question :D

Thanks for not asking me that question. I get called on by certain manufacturers for giving my opinion. They're not very happy with me when they call.
 
Okay, good, you're an engine expert.

So you have said.

So perhaps you can enlighten me on something...

I'll do my best.

Let's talk about Piper Mirage's with the Lycoming TIO-540-AE2A.

Sure, why not. I have a lot of time running and working with those engines.

Assuming that the owner treats it well (never lets CHT's exceed 385 F, etc), and keeps it well maintained, why would a Piper Mirage be any harder on an engine versus another plane with a Lycoming 540? The engine doesn't know what plane it is installed in... My understanding is that the early malibus and then the first mirages both had issues with engine performance that were subsequently fixed (mostly due to training issues and how to operate the engines for the continentals, then quality control crankshaft issues for the first Lycomings). Can you tell me what specifically is in the design of the plane itself somewhere causes engines to eat themselves as is alleged time and time again?

There are multiple aspects to your question. We'll look at the engine first. Although there are many Lycoming engines that are, in fact, 540s, there are also a number of differences between the TIO-540-AE2A and other 540s. Even if we separate out only TIO-540s, the TIO-540-AE2A is different than most other TIO-540s out there in several ways: it uses two small turbos (as opposed to the large single turbo that is typically used by Lycomings) with a single wastegate, has a TIT limit of 1750F instead of the 1650F standard on most Lycomings, and has twin intercoolers. It also has traditional angle valve cylinders in comparison to the Navajos, which utilize an updraft cooling cross-flow cylinder. So, the engine itself isn't the same as a another TIO-540 (or other 540) engine to start off.

To answer your question about what in the plane makes it more stressed than another aircraft, that comes down to how the aircraft is used. A pressurized piston single takes a lot of strain on the engine. The turbos are working harder to feed the pressurization (which means more backpressure in the exhaust and hotter outlet temps from the turbo), and the plane is also flown higher, which means the turbos are working harder to provide the higher pressure ratio required to feed that same manifold pressure and cabin pressurization. When was the last time you saw a Navajo in the flight levels? The highest I ever flew one was 17,500, and the only reason I did that was to say I did it. In normal flying, the highest I ever went was 12,000. You might say the intercoolers make up for that, and they do help, but that still results in a bunch of high pressures and temperatures within the combustion chamber and exhaust that go beyond what the CHTs tell you. We've also seen this on Continentals, look at the SR22 Turbo, which is known for cylinder issues, much like the Malibu. You might say "But wait, what about the Matrix? It's not pressurized." That is correct, but I recall being told (perhaps incorrectly) that it still has the sonic nozzles for cabin pressurization on the engine, they just feed the outside air. The reason for keeping those on has to do with certification. Both Malibu Mirage and Malibu Matrix use the TIO-540-AE2A, which was certified with sonic nozzles. If the Matrix used an AE2B (hypothetical engine name, not a real engine that I know of) without sonic nozzles, Lycoming would have to re-run some testing and do a bunch of paperwork, and that costs time and money. If someone can show me I'm wrong, then I rescind that statement.

Going back to the engine issues that were fixed, the Lycoming crank issue impacted multiple engine lines and certainly was not Malibu specific. As I understand it, the early Continental engine issues were much pilot error due to running them improperly, but Wayne Bower talked about his Continental-powered Malibu breaking a crank after running the engine as specified from somewhere in the flight levels. His partner had an uneventful dead-stick landing to an airport, and they sold the plane. So, who knows if the engines really are better. The plane is still demanding a lot out of the engine via pressurization and higher rate of high pressure ratios on the turbos, still with high power settings. Where do most Malibu owners run? I don't know, but I don't think it's at 65% power.

However, this then gets into an answer about the aircraft and pilots that is much the same as your structural failure point. If a pilot treats the engine right, there's no reason why it won't be reliable. But history has shown that pilots don't always treat the engine right, and that means when you buy a used Malibu, it has the baggage left by its previous owner in terms of engine treatment. If you had an owner who said "Oh, the limit is 1750F on TIT, I'll just lean right to that", then you can expect to have an unreliable engine.

Similarly with the wings falling off the plane, I recall reading the outcome of the testing after several in-flight breakups on Malibus had occurred, and it seemed that they hadn't found an inherent problem with the aircraft. My guess is that it more likely had to do with pilots going too fast (especially thinking about a dive from high altitude) and exerting too high of forces or getting into bad turbulence, flying into bad weather at high altitude (which is probably really bad), or ending up in a disorientation situation and then pulling too hard on the yoke at some point and severely overstressing the plane. But you've probably researched this more than I have.

Hope that is a sane enough answer. :D

Hope that is a sane enough question :D

Hey, you're the one who called yourself insane. I'm just going on what you've told me. :yes:
 
Brilliant write-up. Thank you
 
Very interesting thank you for taking the time to write that up. So it sounds like the turbos are potentially the weak point in the system?

I did a search through the NTSB for any accidents involving the PA46 with Lycoming engine from 1984 to the present (just because that is as far back as it would go). I only looked at domestic accidents and no preliminary reports.

I count 12 accidents due to various engine issues. Here they are for your reference.

WPR12LA015 October 21, 2011 Unknown reason for loss of engine power, engine ran fine on the ground.
SEA07LA254 September 07, 2007 Ran out of fuel
NYC07LA106 April 29, 2007 Partial engine power on takeoff, plane was above max gross weight
NYC06LA197 August 06, 2006 Lack of engine power during takeoff, improper throttle linkage adjustment, high gross weight, premature flap retraction
DEN06LA062 April 13, 2006 Turbocharger failure, loss of oil.
CHI02FA231 August 04, 2002 Crankshaft failure 3 fatalities
LAX01FA207 June 14, 2001 Unknown reason for loss of engine power, engine ran fine on the ground
LAX95LA245 July 10, 1995 Loss of engine power due to Fuel starvation
NYC94LA122 July 13, 1994 Unknown reason for loss of engine power, engine ran fine on the ground.
FTW94FA212 June 25, 1994 Loss of engine power due to oil exhaustion (failed oil scraper ring). Two serious injuries from forced landing on unsuitable terrain
NYC94LA039 December 15, 1993 Loss of engine oil (unknown reason) leading to engine failure
DEN90FA027 November 27, 1989 Loss of engine power for unknown reasons. 3 serious injuries.

Three fatalities and five serious injuries.

The only accident involving a failed turbo was in April 2006. So presumably if there are a bunch of other turbo failures occurring the outcome is not resulting in any damage or need to report the incident.

Just looking at this data available to me it doesn't paint a picture of big problems with the engine. Of course I don't know what maintenance is having to go on... Are cylinders being replaced every 500 hours? Turbos every 1000 hours? Who knows... (maybe Kevin knows :D ).

Thanks for the educational writeup.
 
What makes you think the loss of engine power/oil for unknown reasons were not related to the turbos?
 
What makes you think the loss of engine power/oil for unknown reasons were not related to the turbos?

I put the details in so you can read for yourself. In those cases, when the engine was looked at in detail there was nothing wrong, including nothing wrong with the turbos.

Of course there may have been many hundreds of turbo failures for all we know they wouldn't be reported if the plane lands safely without substantial damage and no injuries. Perhaps Kevin Mead can enlighten us?

Here is the loss of engine oil case you mention:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001211X13912

EXAMINATION OF THE ENGINE AND TURBOCHARGERS DID NOT REVEAL THE SOURCE OF THE OIL LOSS.
 
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I wouldn't say that the AE2A has specific weak points so much as it is a complex engine that works harder and at a higher duty cycle than is typically found in other 540s, and is likely going to be subjected to higher temperatures and pressures as a result. Much of this is due to the airframe that it was installed in, so while the engine doesn't know what it's installed in, it does feel it.

If you take a look at TSIO-520s that are used in pressurized aircraft, there are similar complaints of the P210 as Malibu on reliability. Meanwhile, in the Twin Cessna world, the 340, 414, and 421 seem to have decent reliability on their engines. At least, I don't hear of people talking about as many service complaints with them. I'd look to Kevin for a better picture regarding the service issues in the field on the Malibus. I would expect the Lycoming-powered Malibus to not need cylinders as often as the Continental variants, but I've heard that they don't do much better. In general, though, turbocharged aircraft engines use a complicated system that is more prone to failure and issues than, say, my twin-turbocharged car. Much of this is due to the different requirements of the system in an aviation application.

While the NTSB database does show few fatalities due to engine issues, it doesn't take into account the engine failures or other engine problems that did not result in crashes. Meanwhile, it will show every structural failure that occurred in-flight, for obvious reasons.

Like I said, my background is engines, so that's what I think about more, and the Malibu doesn't have a great reputation with respect to its engine. Plus, from what I understand about structural failures is that it mostly comes down to going too fast and/or flying into bad weather, and seems to be more of an ultimate stress failure (i.e. too much force exerted once) rather than a fatigue failure that occurs over time.
 
Like I said, my background is engines, so that's what I think about more

You're sounding a little defensive. Don't be, it was very interesting and I learned a lot even if it turns out that I was right and you were not quite as right.

:D
 
You're sounding a little defensive. Don't be, it was very interesting and I learned a lot even if it turns out that I was right and you were not quite as right.

:D

I wasn't being defensive, I was more making the point we all have our own areas of concern.

Besides, I'm an engineer. I'm right, I'm always right. :D
 
I put the details in so you can read for yourself. In those cases, when the engine was looked at in detail there was nothing wrong, including nothing wrong with the turbos.

Of course there may have been many hundreds of turbo failures for all we know they wouldn't be reported if the plane lands safely without substantial damage and no injuries. Perhaps Kevin Mead can enlighten us?

Here is the loss of engine oil case you mention:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001211X13912

EXAMINATION OF THE ENGINE AND TURBOCHARGERS DID NOT REVEAL THE SOURCE OF THE OIL LOSS.

It's interesting you bring up N92GP, it was basically a new airplane too. You can trust me that it wasn't the engine at fault in this one.

The turbo and piston ring problems that cause rapid oil loss will normally give you notice. It gets ugly later on when the fill it up with oil and launch again.
 
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