SOCAL Approach and ATIS

davidgfern

davidgfern

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Nov 5, 2018
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130
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San Diego, CA
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EE_Pilot
I've been a pilot in San Diego for nearly 30 years, and over the past few years I've noticed that SOCAL no longer provides ATIS information to pilots --- back in the 1990s and early 2000s SOCAL would always provide the current ATIS information to any IFR pilot who was nearing their destination airfield, but now they usually ask if you have the current ATIS, and if you don't, they tell you to advise them when you have it. This practice doesn't seem to be based on controller workload, as I've run into it at all hours of the day or night, but it increases pilot workload at a phase of flight which is already very busy. If there are any SOCAL controllers out there who can comment on this practice I'd be really appreciative for an explanation as to why they do this nowadays.
 
I dunno know about that. When I flew into LAX we picked up the ATIS, and everywhere else I’ve flown, and I’ve flown just about everywhere. Always got the ATIS. That’s what it’s for, to reduce controller workload, not the pilot’s.
 
davidgfern said:
I've been a pilot in San Diego for nearly 30 years, and over the past few years I've noticed that SOCAL no longer provides ATIS information to pilots --- back in the 1990s and early 2000s SOCAL would always provide the current ATIS information to any IFR pilot who was nearing their destination airfield, but now they usually ask if you have the current ATIS, and if you don't, they tell you to advise them when you have it. This practice doesn't seem to be based on controller workload, as I've run into it at all hours of the day or night, but it increases pilot workload at a phase of flight which is already very busy. If there are any SOCAL controllers out there who can comment on this practice I'd be really appreciative for an explanation as to why they do this nowadays.
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Perhaps it's a change of general culture?

I was taught by my IFR instructor that it is my responsibility to get the weather broadcast myself. And with today's equipment on the airplane, it's super simple to do.

At 20 minutes from destination, tune radio #2 to the destination weather broadcast while monitoring ATC on radio #1. Your brain is (usually) capable of processing both signals. With your pen ready to go, copy down the important information.

Then I have it on hand and can start determining which approach I want to use and start briefing it.

Then when switched to the final approach controller, I can check in using the usual info and add "I also have information ____ at [destination]"

This last bit really shortens the interaction and improves the flow.
 
If you are having the controller recite it, then the obligation is to have you repeat it all back. Ties up the frequency from both ends to have something long and a bit complicated read out over the air.

And for a busy area like SoCal...... I'd think you want everyone to keep it short and to the point versus long and complicated.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Perhaps it's a change of general culture?

I was taught by my IFR instructor that it is my responsibility to get the weather broadcast myself. And with today's equipment on the airplane, it's super simple to do.

At 20 minutes from destination, tune radio #2 to the destination weather broadcast while monitoring ATC on radio #1. Your brain is (usually) capable of processing both signals. With your pen ready to go, copy down the important information.

Then I have it on hand and can start determining which approach I want to use and start briefing it.

Then when switched to the final approach controller, I can check in using the usual info and add "I also have information ____ at [destination]"

This last bit really shortens the interaction and improves the flow.
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A general change in culture is my best guess at it as well. Of course it is the pilot's responsibility to get weather ---- I get that, and 99% of the time I've gotten the ATIS well before getting into the arrival flow at my destination. The point in my initial comment is that it never used to be an issue, and now it is. There will always be some moments in an IFR cockpit (single pilot especially) when its all "rectums and elbows", and being told to "get your own weather" is just another log on the fire.

That said --- what would REALLY be nice if digital weather services that are broadcast through FIS-B included the letter identifier of the current METAR -- that way you can pick up ATIS on your tablet and not have to bother with tuning in ATIS at all.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If you are having the controller recite it, then the obligation is to have you repeat it all back. Ties up the frequency from both ends to have something long and a bit complicated read out over the air.

And for a busy area like SoCal...... I'd think you want everyone to keep it short and to the point versus long and complicated.
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No ---- I see no reason to repeat back an ATIS report to the controller ---- a polite "thanks for the ATIS" comment is enough.
 
davidgfern said:
I've been a pilot in San Diego for nearly 30 years, and over the past few years I've noticed that SOCAL no longer provides ATIS information to pilots --- back in the 1990s and early 2000s SOCAL would always provide the current ATIS information to any IFR pilot who was nearing their destination airfield, but now they usually ask if you have the current ATIS, and if you don't, they tell you to advise them when you have it. This practice doesn't seem to be based on controller workload, as I've run into it at all hours of the day or night, but it increases pilot workload at a phase of flight which is already very busy. If there are any SOCAL controllers out there who can comment on this practice I'd be really appreciative for an explanation as to why they do this nowadays.
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They may have had some incidents and have started enforcing this rule of theirs. If it’s a long ATIS with lotsa stuff, such as Notams, it can take up lotsa time on the frequency to rattle the whole thing off.

d. Controllers must ensure that pilots receive the most current pertinent information. Ask the pilot to confirm receipt of the current ATIS information if the pilot does not initially state the appropriate ATIS code. Controllers must ensure that changes to pertinent operational information is provided after the initial confirmation of ATIS information is established. Issue the current weather, runway in use, approach information, and pertinent NOTAMs to pilots who are unable to receive the ATIS.
EXAMPLE−
“Verify you have information ALPHA.”
“Information BRAVO now current, visibility three miles.”
“Information CHARLIE now current, Ceiling 1500 Broken.”
“Information CHARLIE now current, advise when you have CHARLIE.”
 
"...the obligation is to have you repeat it all back" ????? Not according to regs or AIM.


Citation, Mike.


Bob
 
DFW is a pretty busy Bravo by most measures.

When we get switched from Center to the "typical" approach controller (118.1 N / 135.97 S) I either have the ATIS/AWOS or end the call up with "will advise when we have the weather." If they're bored they'll read it to me, and I say thanks and check it again myself.
 
The ATIS is put out by the tower. The approach controllers are in a completely different facility. I want to know you have the ATIS because I don’t know all of the information the different towers are putting out, NOTAMs, etc...and if I read you the information I have, and it’s different than what is on the ATIS, and you crash because of that information, guess who is on the hook?
 
I got my IR in 2008. I've always gotten the ATIS and was trained to do it that way. And, always tried to have it before being switched to the final approach controller.
 
AggieMike88 said:
View attachment 68837

As far as regs... okay... I erred
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There are only a few mandatory verbatim readbacks...taxi instructions are an example. "Report leaving an altitude" could be as simple as "Out of eight for six, Buzzbomb 36X." The report is required, the phraseology is not. I have heard many an airline pilot respond to a clearance with "We'll do all that."

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
I have heard many an airline pilot respond to a clearance with "We'll do all that."

Bob
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Shame on them. If they did that in many more-ICAO-Compliant countries they would hear a lot about it.
 
SoCal will still read off the weather information if they think there is a workload issue, you tell them you are having an issue obtaining it or if you don't have it by the time they think you should. I diverted from HHR to LGB due to pretty severe crosswinds and wind shear at HHR that was much easier to deal with at LGB and the SoCal controller doing FF for me just gave me the weather information. I've heard them give the weather info to the small number of single radio people out there, so they didn't have to switch off frequency. That said, I don't really see why getting ATIS is an issue at all if you have 2 working radios - or one with a monitor function. You can pick up ATIS for any airport in SoCal's airspace, with the exception of the Coachella Valley ones, around Dana Point, and the only one you'd really be kind of late for there is SNA, where you can pretty easily get from other locations anyway.
 
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