So I have this idea...

Timbeck2

Timbeck2

Final Approach
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Timbeck2
And someone please tell me that something like this already exists but why isn't there a AAA equivalent for stranded pilots? I mean you land in the middle of nowhere with no shop or mechanic on duty to get fuel and you look down and your tire is flat; what do you do?

A network of mechanics and parts that could fly to your location and get you back up in the air for a yearly flat fee plus parts and fuel cost. Land on a dirt road because you ran out of fuel? We send a helicopter.

Yeah, my idea is still in it's infancy but why couldn't something like this be a reality?

Comments welcome.
 
These guys appear to kind of do what you're talking about:

https://www.savvymx.com/

I don't know anyone who uses their services but it sounds and looks like they offer some emergency breakdown services in addition to aircraft maintenance management. As far as I know someone local will still be doing the work, you just call savvy and they get in touch with someone willing to come out and help.
 
mondtster said:
These guys appear to kind of do what you're talking about:

https://www.savvymx.com/

I don't know anyone who uses their services but it sounds and looks like they offer some emergency breakdown services in addition to aircraft maintenance management. As far as I know someone local will still be doing the work, you just call savvy and they get in touch with someone willing to come out and help.
Click to expand...


From their info:
  • Respond anytime, day or night—usually within 15 minutes
  • Assist in troubleshooting your problem
  • Help determine whether your aircraft is safe to fly home
  • If not, identify nearby shops and mechanics, based on Savvy’s extensive database and experience
  • Recommend needed repairs and obtain cost estimates
  • Provide oversight of the service facility until the work is done
  • Review maintenance records and invoices at completion
I think they use "respond" a bit differently. Sounds like a mechanic will call you back and tell you if they think you should fly it or not, and where to fly it to. That'd be like AAA saying "Yep. It's dead. Take it to a mechanic tomorrow." I had considered going through Savvy for my prebuy.... but they charge $750 for the convenience of telling you what shop to take your plane to to get the prebuy done... and you pay for the prebuy regardless. Didn't see a lot of value there.

Otherwise your idea sounds pretty nifty. I like it. I don't know how busy you'd be... there are millions of cars on the road and a comparatively small number of planes in the sky... so while it may make sense for AAA as a money making venture, you might have to be priced prohibitively high to offer that service as a fly-in.
 
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ircphoenix said:
From their info:
  • Respond anytime, day or night—usually within 15 minutes
  • Assist in troubleshooting your problem
  • Help determine whether your aircraft is safe to fly home
  • If not, identify nearby shops and mechanics, based on Savvy’s extensive database and experience
  • Recommend needed repairs and obtain cost estimates
  • Provide oversight of the service facility until the work is done
  • Review maintenance records and invoices at completion
I think they use "respond" a bit differently. Sounds like a mechanic will call you back and tell you if they think you should fly it or not, and where to fly it to. That'd be like AAA saying "Yep. It's dead. Take it to a mechanic tomorrow. I had considered going through Savvy for my prebuy.... but they charge $750 for the convenience of telling you what shop to take your plane to to get the prebuy done... and you pay for the prebuy regardless. Didn't see a lot of value there.
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Have you called AAA for a tow? They don't come out either. A local wrecker service will show up, more or less like what Savvy is implying they'll do, which is identify a local mechanic they deem trustworthy to come out and look at your plane.

Is the service worth paying for? I personally doubt it. The one time I had a mechanical problem on the road with no tools and no FBO on the field I just wandered around until I found someone in one of the hangars who could get me in touch the local mechanic. He came out, gave me a hand and sent me on my way. I doubt Savvy could have done any better, or any more efficiently, especially with how sparsely populated the area I was in was.
 
Savvy is "sort of" what I'm thinking about but not quite. It seems that Savvy will call a repair facility and work with them on your behalf; something that we would have to do ourselves if we were to break down in the middle of nowhere. My idea is a network of mechanics on call who will fly to your location to fix the problem and get you back in the air just like AAA for road vehicles. I mentioned that this idea was in it's infancy, well to be more correct, it is but a twinkle in my eye so to speak.
 
That sounds like a mechanic, with a ppl (cpl?), class 3 (2?) medical, and an airworthy plane... With knowledge of your plane. Seems that would narrow the field quite a bit.
 
They do offer lock service, which would have been handy when I lost my keys on Tangier.. Thankfully after an hour back and forth on the golf cart I found them.
 
Get online, go to POA and post where you are grounded at and what the problem is. Hopefully someone who is also online will be close by to help out or make a recommendation.
 
Why not just carry a spare tube, some basic tools, extra oil, one of those micro jump packs, or chalks good enough to hand prop with, that would really take out most of the stuff a service like that could help with.

Flat tire
Majorly fouled plug (you rookie!)
Flat battery
Low oil
Little lose nut or something.
 
James331 said:
Why not just carry a spare tube, some basic tools, extra oil, one of those micro jump packs, or chalks good enough to hand prop with, that would really take out most of the stuff a service like that could help with.

Flat tire
Majorly fouled plug (you rookie!)
Flat battery
Low oil
Little lose nut or something.
Click to expand...


As for a lock out, most GA planes can easily be "fixed" with little effort.
 
The Beech Aero Club has something like this now, it's a toll-free hotline that the members can call to help them out if they find themselves in a bind. It's a nice piece of mind to know you have someone to call on at least. However, I'm not sure if the service includes a group of mechanics who fly into the field you're stuck at with a new engine for your plane.
 
I don't know the answer but, no good idea goes unpunished, if you have an idea you can be sure the masses will tell you it won't work. Don't listen to the masses.
 
I think when you look at the actual network you'd need and the costs involved, it doesn't end up being worth it.

Let's say that you had a 1 hour flight each way for someone to get to you for a repair. The airplane time alone for that would be about $200 (assuming a cheap 172). That's before you paid the mechanic or even figured out the problem. Then the mechanic may or may not have the proper tools. Your diagnosis of the problem may be completely off, requiring multiple trips because what you told him ended up being not relevant, and he can't pack the entire shop to come to you. Then you find out that it's a bad left magneto that he doesn't have in stock, so you need to order a new one from Aviall, which they don't overnight (even though you told them to overnight it) because of the extra hazardous materials fee they figured you didn't want to pay. This happened to me in the 310 with 25 dogs, we were stuck in Lexington for 2 days. Fortunately, the shop and FBO there were accommodating, but Aviall won the "idiot of the day" award. I complained, but they did nothing.

Now you're stuck there anyway, and you've paid close to $1k just for this mechanic to fly to you and back.

It works well for jets because the transport costs of mechanics and parts/tools are low in comparison to the cost of operating the jet, and their failure modes are often more obvious. Also, you more typically see big jets at larger airports with more services. The equation changes when you fly your 172 to Gaston's.

The best thing you can do in my opinion is to keep a few key spare parts with you that are easy to change but could ground you. I carry a starter and left magneto with me at all times. The magneto would have saved me the above situation, the starter has turned being grounded in middle of nowhere Wyoming for days into a short 30 minute delay.
 
A real pilot keeps basic tools and spares in the plane and can diagnose and fix basic problems.
 
James331 said:
Why not just carry a spare tube, some basic tools, extra oil, one of those micro jump packs, or chalks good enough to hand prop with, that would really take out most of the stuff a service like that could help with.

Flat tire What if if isn't the tube? A lot of people don't have room for a spare tire.
Majorly fouled plug (you rookie!) What if the helicoil springs out and you can't get the plug back in?
Flat battery What if you are in the middle of nowhere with no power outlet or battery charger? Who can carry a spare battery?
Low oil
Little lose nut or something.
Click to expand...

Those last two I would hope everyone plans for, I know I do. I've met quite a few pilots and the vast majority are somewhat mechanically inclined but we all know pilots who are not. Just like a break down on the road you can't prepare for everything.

It is an idea which requires a whole lot of thought and I haven't even scratched the surface or everything that would have to be in place before it ever came to fruition.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Those last two I would hope everyone plans for, I know I do. I've met quite a few pilots and the vast majority are somewhat mechanically inclined but we all know pilots who are not. Just like a break down on the road you can't prepare for everything.

It is an idea which requires a whole lot of thought and I haven't even scratched the surface or everything that would have to be in place before it ever came to fruition.
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Like you said you can't plan for everything.

A tube, cleaning a simple plug, or having one of those little jump/charge anything packs doesn't take up much space and will get you out of the most common jam ups.
 
James331 said:
Like you said you can't plan for everything.

A tube, cleaning a simple plug, or having one of those little jump/charge anything packs doesn't take up much space and will get you out of the most common jam ups.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'm comfy with that.

Most aircraft tires seem to be split rims. How many pilots have ever changed a split rim tire before? They haven't been used in cars in some 50 years.

Screwing that up can make a flat tire a fatal event.
 
It's not rocket surgery, it actually takes less effort than changing a tube on a bicycle, 4 bolts, carry a little powder in a tiny bag with the tube, basic stuff.

IMO I'd want a pilot to have serviced his tires, brakes, plugs and done a oil change before he could get his PPL. It's all really easy stuff and WELL worth finding a APIA who will walk you through it the first time.

Seems like when stuff breaks down, it's always somewhere...inconvenient, and the only person who will always be there for you, is you.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Which is exactly why I have this "idea." ;)
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5 bucks and a beer says that when you get that flat, of course you won't have any cell/radio coverage, or your battery will die the second before you make the call.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Those last two I would hope everyone plans for, I know I do. I've met quite a few pilots and the vast majority are somewhat mechanically inclined but we all know pilots who are not. Just like a break down on the road you can't prepare for everything.

It is an idea which requires a whole lot of thought and I haven't even scratched the surface or everything that would have to be in place before it ever came to fruition.
Click to expand...

I think the hardest part would be getting coverage in the really out-of-the-way areas, which also happen to be the areas where the service would be most useful. AAA does it successfully for cars because even the smallest of small towns have tow trucks and car mechanics. A&P's and IA's, not so much.

I'd also want to have a long talk with a lawyer or two about potential liability.

Rich
 
James331 said:
5 bucks and a beer says that when you get that flat, of course you won't have any cell/radio coverage, or your battery will die the second before you make the call.
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It's irresponsible to get into that position and if someone does, I quite honestly don't feel pity for them. Reminds me also of people who drive into a snowstorm in shorts and a T-shirt and then wonder why they're in a world of hurt when their car breaks down.

If you're going to be flying to a location in the middle of nowhere then make sure you have a reliable means of communication in case something goes wrong at the very least.
 
bikert said:
It's irresponsible to get into that position and if someone does, I quite honestly don't feel pity for them. Reminds me also of people who drive into a snowstorm in shorts and a T-shirt and then wonder why they're in a world of hurt when their car breaks down.

If you're going to be flying to a location in the middle of nowhere then make sure you have a reliable means of communication in case something goes wrong at the very least.
Click to expand...

Well... short of carrying a sat phone around every time you fly over places with no cell service, I'm not sure how one could do that.

Frankly, if I were in that situation, had no way of getting out of it, had no cell reception, and couldn't raise anyone on VHF, I'd just trigger the ELT.

Rich
 
@Timbeck2 if you could pull off that idea you'd probably make a lot of pilots happy. Just yesterday someone on facebook landed at an airport here in FL due to a "knocking" noise in the engine. Had to wait until the morning to get help and then someone had to fly in to assist.

I'm thinking your idea could help set him up in a hotel, call and book the mechanic and coordinate a meeting at the airport with transportation standing by in case the plane was unairworthy. You'd need a LOT of really reliable contacts in more than a few industries to make it work, but hey..it's at least a possibility.
 
I have the service and parts manual for my plane on a CD and a thumb drive in my plane, and on my tablet. I carry a small tool kit and when I replace my tires next annual I'll keep a tube and one of the tires for spares.

As far as your idea is concerned, I think it would be good for those less mechanically inclined. You could start with a 1-800 number and have a mechanic with access to all the service and parts catalogs for any airplane and avionics and have the mechanic talk the pilot through his issues to determine the problem and if there is a field fix. After that the mechanic would then do as Savvy would do and call or give the number for a local mechanic. If it was a tire or other part needed they could order one for next day delivery.
 
bikert said:
It's irresponsible to get into that position and if someone does, I quite honestly don't feel pity for them. Reminds me also of people who drive into a snowstorm in shorts and a T-shirt and then wonder why they're in a world of hurt when their car breaks down.

If you're going to be flying to a location in the middle of nowhere then make sure you have a reliable means of communication in case something goes wrong at the very least.
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I take it you fly a small wheeled plane out of big brand FBO type airports, perhaps you haven't done any real X/Cs, like flying GA over 1000nm?

Aside from the backcountry types, who 9/10 times can do anything covered under owner MX, and a few other things too, there are plenty of normal podunk airports where you ain't picking up ATC on the ground and cell reception is non existent, loooooong walk to "town" and there isn't a huge Signature FBO to help you.

You're saying landing at places like this without a full blown sat phone rig is "irresponsible"????

Personally I think flying anywhere outside of your home drome and not being able to even change a tire is irresponsible, gotta be able to fend for yourself man, that's the definition of responsible.

RJM62 said:
...Frankly, if I were in that situation, had no way of getting out of it, had no cell reception, and couldn't raise anyone on VHF, I'd just trigger the ELT.
Rich
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Man triggering a 406ELT and a SAR event because you can't change a flat tire, or get past a flat battery, not exactly a responsible use of tax payer resources, especially if while a C130 is playing AAA roadside a real emergency happens during the time they are dealing with a owner who can't preform owner MX. There is a reason we have owner MX ya know ;)
 
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MAKG1 said:
I'm not sure I'm comfy with that.

Most aircraft tires seem to be split rims. How many pilots have ever changed a split rim tire before? They haven't been used in cars in some 50 years.

Screwing that up can make a flat tire a fatal event.
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Aircraft wheels have little to no commonality with the old split rims found on trucks. If the tire is already flat the pilot doesn't even have to be smart enough to let the air out before removing the bolts holding the wheel halves together. There is no danger in replacing a tire or tube, if there was the FAA wouldn't allow an aircraft owner to change their own tires.
 
I think it sounds like a great aviation idea, and I think you could make a small fortune with it,
if . . .




you start with a large fortune.
 
GlennAB1 said:
What would pilots be willing to pay annually for such a service and is that enough for the business to survive?
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I would pay $0. So I'm guessing the answer is it wouldn't survive. :)
 
James331 said:
. . . .

Man triggering a 406ELT and a SAR event because you can't change a flat tire, or get past a flat battery, not exactly a responsible use of tax payer resources, especially if while a C130 is playing AAA roadside a real emergency happens during the time they are dealing with a owner who can't preform owner MX. There is a reason we have owner MX ya know ;)
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I wasn't referring to a flat tire, but rather the poster's comment about being in "the middle of nowhere" and not having a reliable means of communications. If you're in a certificated aircraft, you always have the ELT as a last resort; and whether it's because of a flat tire or a thrown rod, stranded is stranded.

If I'm flying an ultralight without an ELT (or doing anything in a really remote area, for that matter, like when I was doing that photo gig for the railroad), I carry a PLB. I wouldn't hesitate to use it if I had to land in the middle of the Forest Preserve and had no way out. I've spent enough time on the other end of SAR missions that I figure I have one coming to me.

Rich
 
ifly4fun said:
They do offer lock service, which would have been handy when I lost my keys on Tangier.. Thankfully after an hour back and forth on the golf cart I found them.
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Ha, I once developed a bad mag on Tangier. Luckily I have a really good relationship with my mechanic who flew in to rescue me and fixed me up before sunset.


To the OP: a lot of issues to deal with. 1) it's a small customer base that's spread out across a huge area. 2) Expensive; even he cheapest A&P will still expect to be paid for travel time and expenses. That could add up. 3) Parts availability- can be an issue if something very standard did not break 4) Access to airports- some airports require journeyman mechanics to meet minimum standards to operate on the field. That is not a minor issue.

For these reasons, the SAAVY model of working with known shops at the field you're at (or at least nearby if the mechanic can travel or you can fly) is probably a more realistic model.
 
I started out on a flight in a rented C172 on Nov 11th and got it stranded about 50 miles away. Dead battery. The FBO called a local mechanic and bargained with him for a jump start. Flew back to the FBO. Never heard what the cause was, but I suspect some idiot didn't turn on the alternator.
I had an issue with an alternator randomly going offline. This was a loose wire.
Another electrical issue resolved to a loose cable on the battery. Again, another 50+ miles from home. I bargained with a local mechanic for assistance. Mechanic handpropped the plane. Once started, everything checked out.
I lost both radios. Flew NORDO from a class D back to my home airport. Turned out the primary radio was just loose in the bracket. Secondary radio was nfg. Departed with lightgun and transponder code (vfr flight following lite).
Transponder wasn't sending out a proper mode C altitude. Flew out of a class C without the mode C. That turned out to be a minor fix to the altitude encoder.
Last issue was a transponder seemingly working but ATC could not read it. Before I left the class D airspace, I returned to land and downed the aircraft. That again resolved to a loose wire.
Most things with aircraft are not terminal nor safety issues. You're the PIC. Figure out what you can do safely or track down a willing mechanic. There is no reason you could not swap 24 hour numbers with your favorite mechanic. Mine is on speeddial.
 
I've been providing emergency service for PA46 operators and MMOPA members for a long time. It isn't cheap. How quickly can you get a tire changed at Logan, a starter replaced at Austin, or a blown tire in Wyoming. I have had no success in getting an emergency network set up for the PA46. I think any emergency service will need to be type specific and based on aircraft value to make it successful.
 
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