So how bad are no logs?

You can drag/drop the jpgs into your favorite word processor, and export it as pdf.
 
I'm surprised airplane-selling jockeys don't do that as a matter of choice & load it all onto a CD/DVD for serious tire kickers. I wouldn't let a prospective buyer even handle the original logs.
 
coloradobluesky said:
You won't know the engine time so you have to figure it needs to be SMOHed. That's gonna cost a bundle.

Isn't there another plane like that somewhere that HAS logs? Why not buy it. Why get a bunch of extra headaches? Owning a plane is hard enough WITH logs.
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Well, an airplane without a log has a much, much lower demand and therefore a much, much lower price. The trick is to determine if the difference between that lower price and the real price is more or less than the cost to refurb the airplane. There may or may not be some price where that is feasible. My thought is that variation allows for a big savings but also the potential for a big loss.

I agree on writing off the engine. But engine prices are known and can be pretty easily factored into the price.
 
Lost records is not the end of the world for an aircraft. Reference AC 43-9C section 12 LOST OR DESTROYED RECORDS.

Occasionally, the records for an aircraft are lost to establish the total time-in-service of the airframe. This can be done by reference to other records that reflect the time-in-service; research of records maintained by repair facilities; and reference to records maintained by individual mechanics, etc. When these things have been done and the record is still incomplete, the owner/operator may make a notarized statement in the new record describing the loss and establishing the time-in-service based on the research and the best estimate of time-in-service.

a. The current status of applicable AD’s may present a more formidable problem. This may require a detailed inspection by maintenance personnel to establish that the applicable AD’s have been complied with. I t can readily be seen that this could entail considerable time, expense, and in some instances, might require recompliance with the AD.

b. Other items required by section 9 1.4 17(a)(2), such as the current status of life-limited parts, time since last overhaul, current inspection staLus, and current list of major alterations, may present difficult problems. Some items may be easier to reestablish than others, but all are problems. Losing maintenance records can be troublesome, costly, and time consuming. Safekeeping of the records is an integral part of a good record keeping system.

There are two types of aircraft records temporary and permanent, which the regulations require the owner to keep for the three major components of every aircraft. These include airframe, each engine, and propeller or rotor.

Temporary Records

1. These consist of a record of all minor maintenance and minor alterations performed on the aircraft by mechanics in accordance with CFR 91 Subpart E.
2. A record of the required inspection performed on the aircraft; whether it is a 100-hour, annual, a progressive inspection, or any other required or approved inspection.

Minor maintenance and alterations records may be discarded when the work is repeated or superseded by other work. The record of routine inspections my also be discarded when the next inspection is completed. However it is good to retain the records indefinite as it show continuity in the maintenance program.

Permanent Record

Permanent records will include the following:
1. Total time in service of the airframe, engine, and propeller.
2. The current status of the life limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.
3. Time since last the overhaul of item on the aircraft, which are required to be overhauled on a scheduled time basic.
4. The current inspection status of the aircraft.
5. The current status of applicable Airworthiness Directives (AD’s) and method of compliance.
6. A list of the current major alterations to each airframe, engine, propeller, or rotor.
7. Current operating limitations, including revisions to the aircraft weight and center of gravity, caused by the installation or removal of equipment or alterations.
 
nrpetersen said:
I'm surprised airplane-selling jockeys don't do that as a matter of choice & load it all onto a CD/DVD for serious tire kickers. I wouldn't let a prospective buyer even handle the original logs.
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On premesise I will handle the actual logs, or the value will be treated as if there were middling logs. The problem is the pages aren't numbered, so until I see the physical units, I don't know what's been left out of the pics or torn out of the books. I inspect the books for missing pages, it is rare, but I have found some missing that when I cross referenced with the FAA CD, I noted were hiding major events.

At that point I walk away from deals.
 
Well I think that accidentally lost records and purposely lost records are two different things entirely.
 
It depends on how bad you want the aircraft,how long you intend on keeping it. How many of the logs can be re-created.the key is having a model specific inspection by a mechanic ,who knows the airplane.
 
Very difficult to make blanket statements. In the long run I think it would be advantageous to buy an airplane with nice legible logs . In many instances , the people who inspected it can be found and spoken with. I was burned once on a Cessna 195 and learned from it. Many lies by the seller and poor logs.....after.....he bought it. After that I was very cautious. Why not buy a well documented aircraft instead? It's a buyers market. Pay more, do it correctly.
 
Computerjim said:
Not to buyers.
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That's probably true because the buyer most likely is not going to know that the logbooks are missing on purpose for nefarious reasons rather than just accidentally lost. What I meant was that logbooks that are lost on purpose obviously involves deceit so it's a completely different situation from the case of just some missing records.

Now, if there were nothing wrong with the airplane other than the missing logs and there were no insurmountable issues in regenerating the AD compliance and getting the annual signed off and if it were being offered at a substantial discount then I would think that it has the potential of being a very good deal. In regards to resale well, you got in cheap so you can offer it at a price that would give you a market advantage. If it is a common aircraft and there is nothing exceptional about it it might be more difficult to sell but if you have owned it for several years and have therefore begun the process of creating a new maintenance history and it is demonstrated that you have had no issues either with the aircraft or the annual inspections then I think there is the potential that you might even make a little off of it.

Sure it's a bit of a crap shoot but that's true of purchasing any used airplane with or without logbooks.
 
When it comes to "missing log(s)" aircraft purchases, I believe that it's simply a matter of doing the math. You've got to come up with a cost to bring the aircraft into full compliance. Additionally, you've got to assign a cost to the "hassle factor" and subtract those costs from the value of an equivalent airplane that has its logs intact. The cost to bring the airplane into full compliance can be substantial and involve a lot of hassle. If you're looking at a Cessna 172 it might not be worth it unless it is priced accordingly - good ones are easy to find. If your heart is set on something like a Meyers 200, then there's more motivation to go through the hassle - there's not many of them out there to choose from.
 
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Henning said:
On premesise I will handle the actual logs, or the value will be treated as if there were middling logs. The problem is the pages aren't numbered, so until I see the physical units, I don't know what's been left out of the pics or torn out of the books. I inspect the books for missing pages, it is rare, but I have found some missing that when I cross referenced with the FAA CD, I noted were hiding major events.

At that point I walk away from deals.
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I am convinced this is the case with my plane. Since I have owned the plane, I have discovered evidence on line and very careful physical examination, that the airplane was substantially damaged while it was still owned by the Mooney factory and was being used as a factory demonstrator. It was then repaired while still owned by the factory. This all happened in 1967 when it was about 9 months old.

Like you said, the pages aren't numbered and some unscrupulous owner who wanted to sell the plane with "no damage history" realized that he could create a maintenance void in the logs by removing pages and it would not be noticeable. It worked. I didn't notice and neither has anybody that has looked at the logs since I have owned it. In fairness, it's so far back that nobody spends much time looking at things that far back.
 
No logs is REALLY bad on a cold winter night when the furnace craps out and the fireplace is all you've got.

Jim:yes:
 
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