Snowy Runways

ebykowsky

ebykowsky

Cleared for Takeoff
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Couple of questions in this one:
1) How much snow is too much snow on the runway for takeoff/landing/taxi? Assume your typical 4-5K ft local airport runway, paved and standard GA Cessna/Piper.

2) Are there any data sources that you can use to figure out whether or not the runways have been plowed or how much snow there is on the runway (other than calling up the airport manager--assuming no tower, only AWOS?)
 
As I recall, my airport has the following accumulation criteria before it gets the plows out.

1. 1/2 inch of slush
2. 1 inch of wet snow
3. 1 1/2 in of dry snow
 
duats usually tells how the runways are. That's what I look at. If the airport can clear some of it they have it listed..."Runway 16/34 FICON PATCHY THIN DRY snow OBSERVED at 1401251930. January 25th, 2014 at 03:04 PM" that is what it said for KTOL

Some snow isn't too bad as long as it isn't totally covering the runway. If it's too covered the runway is notam'd as closed.
 
Kind of depends on the snow. If it's light and fluffy powder, maybe up to 3 inches or so. Wet & heavy, maybe an inch & a half. If it's drifted that's bad.
 
Problem with snow is it might be fine for landing, but you'll get bogged down trying to taxi to your parking area.
 
Always check the notams for runway conditions.
 
The problem is snow turning into slush and freezing. Hit that stuff with your wheel pants and you are gonna leave pieces on the runway. I usually take my "pants" off in the winter. :eek: ;)
 
frfly172 said:
Always check the notams for runway conditions.
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While that might work for the day after the snowstorm, it doesn't help you when you're flying in it.

I've landed and taken off in 3" of snow and it hasn't ever been a problem. Also landed on ice and it's never been a problem. The snow will actually give you some more friction and help you stop quicker. The ice will hurt your stopping distance, so it's important to come in slow.
 
Geico266 said:
The problem is snow turning into slush and freezing. Hit that stuff with your wheel pants and you are gonna leave pieces on the runway. I usually take my "pants" off in the winter. :eek: ;)
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Another benefit of retractable gear, the way a plane should be. :D
 
ebykowsky said:
I checked the NOTAMS but there was nothing. Probably 4-6 inches on the runway though.
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Not an issue. We had an airport manager who wouldn't run the plow unless someone would ride with him and wouldn't turn over the plow duties to anyone (control freak) Nearly a half million worth of taxpayer money well spent on the plow and it's hangar. Nobody would ride with him so the airport never got plowed. maybe twice a winter if we were lucky. 4-6" was typical. Biggest issue was MAKE SURE to remove any wheel pants, a flat nose tire learned me that much. We got used to it, it would get icy if it went on for too long. I would go fly in spite of it, but I wouldn't want to land there without having taken off before hand… NOTAM? What's that? He put "Snow removal intermittent" in the AFD and called it good. The local flight school would get POed though. Especially since they kicked in on (read supplied) the funds to get the government match to buy the plow.
 
Geico266 said:
Couldn't the slush freeze the wheels up? :confused:
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It can, but it won't get in the way of the wheel pants. :)

They say that after taking off you should pump the brakes a couple times to make sure they're clear of ice/slush and make the gear go up and down twice to make sure it's clear and doesn't freeze shut. I have no idea if that actually helps or not, but it makes sense and can't hurt so I've done it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It can, but it won't get in the way of the wheel pants. :)

They say that after taking off you should pump the brakes a couple times to make sure they're clear of ice/slush and make the gear go up and down twice to make sure it's clear and doesn't freeze shut. I have no idea if that actually helps or not, but it makes sense and can't hurt so I've done it.
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I sheared off valve stem on my nose wheel after departing in deep slush. I had removed the wheel pants from the mains but the nose wheel pant is a PITA to remove on the cherokee. Was told the slush got in the wheel pant, froze at altitude and then sheared off valve stem when the wheel touched back down.
 
frfly172 said:
Always check the notams for runway conditions.
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You can check, but I'd never assume that there will be a notam with the conditions. I'd suggest checking but following up with a phone call and/or having an alternate airport in mind that is not affected by the snow.

Geico266 said:
Couldn't the slush freeze the wheels up? :confused:
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It can, and will occasionally lock a wheel up. I had a main lock up on me earlier this winter after busting through some snow drifts on takeoff. It made for a slight bit of excitement on touchdown but nothing to worry about.
 
bartmc said:
I sheared off valve stem on my nose wheel after departing in deep slush. I had removed the wheel pants from the mains but the nose wheel pant is a PITA to remove on the cherokee. Was told the slush got in the wheel pant, froze at altitude and then sheared off valve stem when the wheel touched back down.
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See! Just take your pants off! :rofl:


:yikes:
 
Many years ago I went flying in the Cessna 140 on Christmas morning after it had snowed that night. TWF where I took off was plowed and I went over to JER just north and it had about 2" of light powder on it and no tracks. It was cool landing as you could feel the tires touching the top of the snow and it was like landing on a pillow. Did half a dozen touch and gos then went back to Twin. I'll never forget that sensation touching down. Don
 
saracelica said:
duats usually tells how the runways are. That's what I look at. If the airport can clear some of it they have it listed..."Runway 16/34 FICON PATCHY THIN DRY snow OBSERVED at 1401251930. January 25th, 2014 at 03:04 PM" that is what it said for KTOL

Some snow isn't too bad as long as it isn't totally covering the runway. If it's too covered the runway is notam'd as closed.
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Many runways can be 100% covered and still be open.
 
When I flew air ambulance out of Reno, we'd always call the airport to find out the true conditions at the airport. Granted, they would often plow the runway, just for us.

One thing to keep in mind. You want to not only ask the runway condition, but taxiway and ramps as well. These are almost never in the NOTAMS. It does do any good to land and have no where to go.

Final thought. Even flying big jets, we have been fooled into thinking that the runway and the taxiway had been plowed. What was missed was the runway turn offs. Nothing like a MD-11 starting to slide sideways. :mad2:
 
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Using your brakes can thaw snow just enough to freeze again locking them.

Thus, some airplanes have "brake de-ice" as an option.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
One thing to keep in mind. You want to not only ask the runway condition, but taxiway and ramps as well. These are almost never in the NOTAMS. It does do any good to land and have no where to go.
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This. I was asked to check out the conditions in the Dallas area earlier this year after they had an ice storm. The NOTAMS didn't seem too bad but I called a couple FBOs who said their ramps were sheets of ice and not to come. So we didn't.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that unpacked snow on the runway will slow your acceleration and lengthen your takeoff distance. It's a strange to feel the acceleration once the airplane is free of the ground.
 
Geico266 said:
I usually take my "pants" off in the winter. :eek: ;)
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chris-hansen-wildcasa.jpg
 
I remember that the King Air and -99 had brake de ice. I assume there are others too.

kgruber said:
Using your brakes can thaw snow just enough to freeze again locking them.

Thus, some airplanes have "brake de-ice" as an option.
Click to expand...
 
Brad Z said:
Problem with snow is it might be fine for landing, but you'll get bogged down trying to taxi to your parking area.
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Yup.

My one experience was landing in Tonopah after it snowed. The runway was mostly cleared up, just a very thin layer, and a soft field landing handled that without issue. Taxiing to the gas pumps was more interesting, because I had to keep the engine at higher RPM's than normal to get over the forward resistance, while at the same time being uber-careful in turns.

Then I got gas and the fun really started, because good luck getting the plane to start moving when the wheels are against a couple inches of snow. Eventually with a bit of back and forth, we got going, but I was glad to be out of there.
 
A bit drafty, but can still be a good time!
 

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onwards said:
Yup.

My one experience was landing in Tonopah after it snowed. The runway was mostly cleared up, just a very thin layer, and a soft field landing handled that without issue. Taxiing to the gas pumps was more interesting, because I had to keep the engine at higher RPM's than normal to get over the forward resistance, while at the same time being uber-careful in turns.

Then I got gas and the fun really started, because good luck getting the plane to start moving when the wheels are against a couple inches of snow. Eventually with a bit of back and forth, we got going, but I was glad to be out of there.
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Just put it in reverse and rock it back and forth ;)
 
ebykowsky said:
How much snow is too much snow on the runway for takeoff/landing/taxi?
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Well, as a starting point, 12" may be too much snow:

1201321490.jpg


http://www.salem-news.com/articles/january252008/plane_crash_12508.php
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20080229X00248&ntsbno=LAX08CA053&akey=1

In a written statement and telephone conversations with a National Transportation Safety Board investigator, the pilot reported that as he entered the vicinity of the destination airport, he decided to land as the passengers needed to use the airport's facilities. Using the visual clues of sprigs of grass, he determined that the runway had a layer of snow on the surface several inches in depth. After making a stabilized approach he touched down in the snow and the airplane suddenly stopped, nosing over inverted. After egressing the airplane, the pilot noted that the snow was in actuality over 1-foot deep.
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Not sure I see "sprigs of grass". Maybe the tops of seedling trees...
 
ebykowsky said:
I checked the NOTAMS but there was nothing. Probably 4-6 inches on the runway though.
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I imagine if you found out the schedule of the jet center you'd know exactly when, and only when, the owner/airport manager was going to make the effort to plow :mad:

They're flying on Wednesday so I'm sure it'll be cleared tomorrow at least!
 
Katamarino said:
I imagine if you found out the schedule of the jet center you'd know exactly when, and only when, the owner/airport manager was going to make the effort to plow :mad:

They're flying on Wednesday so I'm sure it'll be cleared tomorrow at least!
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Glad to see a fellow Zelie pilot! Are you with Condor as well? And yeah, don't get started on the manager :no:

Also, be careful with that TFR here on Wednesday if you plan on flying; don't go flying into Obama's airspace!
 
And you guys bag on on California... I was in PA last week suffering through -1 before wind chill (-13 with that added), while it was in the 70's back home (admittedly warm for that time of year). I have been driving the convertible with the top down since I got back. Of course they are saying drought now and we aren't allowed to water our lawns. Also, my ski pass for Northstar isn't seeing much use.
 
ebykowsky said:
Glad to see a fellow Zelie pilot! Are you with Condor as well? And yeah, don't get started on the manager :no:

Also, be careful with that TFR here on Wednesday if you plan on flying; don't go flying into Obama's airspace!
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Yes, I'm at Condor too. I'll be giving the talk at the club meeting next week; come and say hi if you're attending!
 
Thought I would continue the thread with a picture:)

Saturday I landed at KAMN and confirmed the runway was plowed friday but during the morning and during my flight it got about 1-1/2 to 2" of fresh snow.

It was like wheres waldo while finding the runway as you can see from the picture everything looked like a farm field.

Landing was great and soft from the snow, actually was one of those you remember cause the warm fuzzy opposed to the prickly.

Take off probably added 300 foot or so so it was another non event.
 

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Curious how much damage that cessna actually sustained in the flip on its back. Looks like just prop and firewall?? The struts are not bent and the wings look fine. Can't tell about the vertical stabilizer, but the part that is showing looks good.

Its still flying
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N734KU
 
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