Skywest Enroute Stall

Jaybird180 said:
Isnt there a requirement to use an AP at those altitudes, no handflying allowed?
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You could probably get into trouble even if you are using the autopilot in cruise. In mountain wave the autopilot will let the speed vary in order to maintain altitude. Anticipating the next question, you do get mountain wave, at times even into the 40s.

We (the company I fly for) requires the autopilot to be engaged in cruise at RVSM altitudes, but it does not need to be engaged for the climb or descent. Other operators may be different.
 
rwellner98 said:
Some have commented that unless there is a pattern of stalls then this is FAA overreach.

Others have commented that it sounds like an airplane issue rather than an airline issue.

One possibility is that the FAA is just sick of Skywest playing safety games. That would explain why they haven't issued blanket restrictions for everyone else also.

As evidence, remember that they recently fined Skywest over a million dollars for flying 15,969 flights in airplanes that hadn't been properly inspected.

So, while this might be the first stall, it could be argued that it's the 15,970th overall event and that the FAA sees a pattern of not carrying about safety at Skywest. Dunno. I don't work at the FAA.
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Without dragging company laundry out here, based on some posts/company emails and other rumors and innuendo on another professional board, it sounds like there is more to the story and may not have been an isolated incident.
 
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Everskyward said:
You could probably get into trouble even if you are using the autopilot in cruise. In mountain wave the autopilot will let the speed vary in order to maintain altitude. Anticipating the next question, you do get mountain wave, at times even into the 40s.

We (the company I fly for) requires the autopilot to be engaged in cruise at RVSM altitudes, but it does not need to be engaged for the climb or descent. Other operators may be different.
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Does the ap in cruise setting control an autothrottle to compensate for instances where speed falls below some value (if so, what value does it use? alpha? Min airspeed bug? other?) in the attempt to maintain altitude in, say, mountain wave?
 
petrolero said:
Does the ap in cruise setting control an autothrottle to compensate for instances where speed falls below some value (if so, what value does it use? alpha? Min airspeed bug? other?) in the attempt to maintain altitude in, say, mountain wave?
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I'm pretty sure Skywest's CRJs/ERJs don't have autothrottles.
 
To perhaps achieve certain on-time goals or maybe efficiency goals, I can imagine SkyWest was perhaps accepting altitudes they could not fly with sufficient airspeed margin given their W&B and doing so consistently enough that it ****ed the FAA off.

That would be a problem with that airline and that aircraft combo and wouldn't necessarily affect any other airline.
 
petrolero said:
To perhaps achieve certain on-time goals or maybe efficiency goals, I can imagine SkyWest was perhaps accepting altitudes they could not fly with sufficient airspeed margin given their W&B and doing so consistently enough that it ****ed the FAA off.
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That was kind of the impression I was getting on the other site.
 
petrolero said:
To perhaps achieve certain on-time goals or maybe efficiency goals, I can imagine SkyWest was perhaps accepting altitudes they could not fly with sufficient airspeed margin given their W&B and doing so consistently enough that it ****ed the FAA off.

That would be a problem with that airline and that aircraft combo and wouldn't necessarily affect any other airline.
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Jets have performance calculations for Optimum altitudes based upon weight and ISA temperature deviation.

Optimum also gives protection from the buffet boundaries. Climb above optimum and the buffet boundaries get closer and also the required thrust vs weight/temperature is below a safe margin. Toss in some turbulence and now you are behind the curve.
 
petrolero said:
Does the ap in cruise setting control an autothrottle to compensate for instances where speed falls below some value (if so, what value does it use? alpha? Min airspeed bug? other?) in the attempt to maintain altitude in, say, mountain wave?
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If you are talking about our airplane, we don't have autothrottles. I don't know about Skywest's airplanes. However, if they are cruising up high there is probably no throttle left other than a takeoff or emergency setting.

Our autopilot will take you right to the shaker then disconnect. But in that case it has already trimmed nose up so it's not in any way a hands off recovery. You need to put in your own nose down force.
 
there is a 40 page thread about skywest over on another forum. towards the end it is discussed. i gathered from that:
SKywest self reports to the FAA events. this is not a mandoatory report and they are ine of the few to report a slow speed event.
a slow speed event is when the aircraft slows to the bottom of the "allowable" airspeed in the op specs. the complaint i saw was that skywest wants pilots to operate slower for fuel conservation. the speed is still in the safety zone on the opspec, but not in the eyes of some the pilots. NO stick shaker or stall occured. the thread also talks about a dsoconnect between MGMT and the pilots, alot due to geographical distance from SLC to st george.
posters also go on to say the SKW CRJ200's got a ceiling restriction at fl280.

i cant link the discussion, but it was typical back and fourth....

I have been watching skywest very closely. i would like to jump on with them as soon as I get to mins.
 
Everskyward said:
If you are talking about our airplane, we don't have autothrottles. I don't know about Skywest's airplanes. However, if they are cruising up high there is probably no throttle left other than a takeoff or emergency setting.

Our autopilot will take you right to the shaker then disconnect. But in that case it has already trimmed nose up so it's not in any way a hands off recovery. You need to put in your own nose down force.
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You answered my next question which was how much throttle would you have available anyway at FL390... none.

Seems like they filed for or accepted too high an altitude on too many occasions and in this case they actually couldn't maintain it.
 
KyleT said:
there is a 40 page thread about skywest over on another forum. towards the end it is discussed. i gathered from that:
SKywest self reports to the FAA events. this is not a mandoatory report and they are ine of the few to report a slow speed event.
a slow speed event is when the aircraft slows to the bottom of the "allowable" airspeed in the op specs. the complaint i saw was that skywest wants pilots to operate slower for fuel conservation. the speed is still in the safety zone on the opspec, but not in the eyes of some the pilots. NO stick shaker or stall occured. the thread also talks about a dsoconnect between MGMT and the pilots, alot due to geographical distance from SLC to st george.
posters also go on to say the SKW CRJ200's got a ceiling restriction at fl280.

i cant link the discussion, but it was typical back and fourth....

I have been watching skywest very closely. i would like to jump on with them as soon as I get to mins.
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Do you actually know what "OpSpecs" are? :rolleyes:

Also, those reports the airline makes to the FAA are mandatory because they participate in a "Self Disclosure" program in which they agree to provide information in lieu of an enforcement.
 
KyleT said:
there is a 40 page thread about skywest over on another forum. towards the end it is discussed. i gathered from that:
SKywest self reports to the FAA events. this is not a mandoatory report and they are ine of the few to report a slow speed event.
a slow speed event is when the aircraft slows to the bottom of the "allowable" airspeed in the op specs. the complaint i saw was that skywest wants pilots to operate slower for fuel conservation. the speed is still in the safety zone on the opspec, but not in the eyes of some the pilots. NO stick shaker or stall occured. the thread also talks about a dsoconnect between MGMT and the pilots, alot due to geographical distance from SLC to st george.
posters also go on to say the SKW CRJ200's got a ceiling restriction at fl280.

i cant link the discussion, but it was typical back and fourth....

I have been watching skywest very closely. i would like to jump on with them as soon as I get to mins.
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This may have been handled in the ASAP Aviation Safety Action Program, wonder if a trend developed spawning a rec from OO's ERC


Dear Pilots,

You’re well aware of our ongoing efforts to provide awareness, training, SOP updates, bulletins, and more regarding high altitude low speed events, and as an airline we have made continual improvements. However, even one event produces unacceptable risk. As professional aviators, it’s important to understand that any occurrence of these types of events is a failure of our responsibilities as a pilot and undermines our credibility as pilots and as an airline.

That’s why effective Monday, June 22 at 08:00Z, an amendment to our Operations Specifications will mandate the following operational limitations:
CRJ200 operations are limited to FL280 and below with a minimum cruise airspeed of 250 knots indicated airspeed

CRJ700/900 operations are limited to FL350 and below with a minimum cruise speed of Mach .74 or 250 knots indicated airspeed (whichever is less)
Please reference FOAB 062115-1 for full restriction details. Compliance with these altitude and speed limits is mandatory. It’s important for you to know that strict monitoring will be accomplished by our OCC and the FAA.

I know this may produce new challenges; if you have questions, please ask. We will continue to keep you updated and Flight Ops leadership is available to answer questions. As always, our primary focus must be the safety of each and every flight. Thank you for remaining vigilant and focused on this essential responsibility.

Fly Safe,

Captain *********
Vice President Flight Operations

I cannot authenticate this but it sounds legit.
 
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regional shenanigans. To quote the mayhem guy: Sorry Robert. 5 dollars doesn't buy my undivided attention....
 
According to an article I read in Business and Commercial Aviation, there were over a dozen events.
 
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woxof said:
According to an article I read in Business and Commercial Aviation, there were over a dozen events.
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I flew at another regional. We had a few of these as well I'm sure, one that I know about for sure. The FMS will tell you if you can get up to a particular altitude based on weight and temperature. The CRJ200 is a mid to high 20s cruising plane. The 700 & 900 are much better and can go higher, much higher. There are speeds used climbing out of 250, then .74, then .70 per the company OpSpecs. NEVER slower than 250/.70 during climbs. Ya gotta be paying attention, especially when it's approaching low speed checkers on the airspeed indicator and the trend vector is showing a continued decrease in airspeed. Not good.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Your airline's FAA OpSpecs specified climb speeds?
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Bombardier and our training department come up with the speeds, but the Feds I guess approve/sign off on them via OpSpecs. Been gone awhile so may be wrong on it exactly.
 
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