Single vs. Multi as first plane???

[Jeanie]

we have a rich, intelligent motivated doctor... New student just solo'd a 152...
Should he get a multi for his first plane or a decent single like an A36?

Let the opinions fly!

If a multi, which one

 

[jhausch]

Does he want to eventually own a twin? What are his flying goals?

 

[ronnieh]

So the choice is a doctor with a fresh private in a Bonanza or in a C90. I vote for the C90.

 

[Henning]

58 Baron FIKI w/ SVT

 

[MSPAviator]

DeHavilland Beaver on amphib floats.

 

[gismo]

we have a rich, intelligent motivated doctor... New student just solo'd a 152...
Should he get a multi for his first plane or a decent single like an A36?

Let the opinions fly!

If a multi, which one

Depends on whether the goal is learning to fly or transportation. It is possible to train in and master a twin or even a jet but that will require significantly more time, money, and effort. Also most flight training suppliers are not equipped or prepared to provide the kind of training necessary to accomplish that. That said, someone who advances through the ratings on a fast track in a typical training regime isn't likely to be anywhere near as competent as someone who gets to the same point rating wise over a 10 year 1000 hr period with exposure to lots of different flying environments. And in any of those cases the safer pilot will be the one who clearly understands the limitations of his flying skills, knowledge, and experience and deliberately avoids pushing their personal envelope out too far at any point in their flying career.

 

[zaitcev]

We need to know the mission. I see some suggestion flying already. Sure, you cannot go wrong with a Baron. Dick Carl was driving a Cheyenne while he was still a doctor. But it may be not ideal. Ask the doc how much spare time he has to attend recurrent training with Simflight.

 

[brcase]

 

[LearDriver]

I was in a very similar situation with a student 15 years ago. He learned to fly in a 152. Then he purchased a Piper Seneca 2. Well he paid for it and I did the work for the purchase. He spent a lot of hours getting his instrument rating in the airplane. It is a very safe airplane for an entry level multi pilot. He went on to buy a Cessna 421 and is a very safe and competent pilot.

 

[poadeleted20]

Two questions:

• Is this doctor planning to a twin (i.e., is that what it takes to meet his needs/wants)?
• How does he deal with long, difficult training programs (i.e., can he deal with up to 200 hours to solo)?

If the answers to both are "yes," go for it. If not, find a more appropriate solution. The second question is probably the biggest issue. If this is a problem, it may be a long and, for him, frustrating program, and starting with something even simpler than a Bonanza might allow a more graduated series of successful achievements which will keep him better motivated.

 

[Jeanie]

200 hours to solo? Hmmm, I'd be surprised he'd have the patience for that. Naturally he will start his IR training right after his PP is complete.

 

[Ted]

My first plane was the Aztec, and it worked just fine. I bought it with 225 hours total time and no previous multi training, just time in the 172, Archer, and Mooney.

An Aztec, Baron, or 310 all make good first twins. I think the Aztec makes the best since it is the most forgiving and easiest to fly. It is the largest as well, which some people may like. Others will prefer the speed of the 310 or Baron.

If a twin is what this person needs to fit his or her mission, I see no problem with buying it. The thing the doctor needs to understand is that there will be a tremendous amount of dual in the plane before he can be expected to solo it, and especially before he can be expected to fly it in all sorts of weather. I have a customer who bought a Navajo as his first twin, with only having had some time in a Seminole prior. We did about 50 hours together before he soloed it, and now with 100 hours together, he still doesn't solo it often. He has good personal minimums, so it works just fine.

If a twin isn't what he needs for his mission and/or he wants to be able to solo the plane sooner, then he should probably look at a retractable single that will be a good stepping stone for the first couple hundred hours, and then upgrade.

 

[poadeleted20]

200 hours to solo? Hmmm, I'd be surprised he'd have the patience for that.

Between the necessary skill set and the insurance requirements, 200 hours to solo if done ab initio in a 58 Baron seems a possibility to me, especially if not done in a full-time aviation training program like the US military runs. Even the US Air Force starts 'em out in 172's (or the like). So yes, since there's no way to predict progress in such a situation, if this doctor is not going to sit still for that much training before being allowed to solo, buying a Baron and training in it from scratch might be unwise.

 

[Henning]

If it takes 200hrs to solo, the person shouldn't be flying. If it takes 200hrs for a CFI to solo someone in a Baron/Seneca/310/Aztec, they have no business being a CFI.

 

[Ted]

If it takes 200hrs to solo, the person shouldn't be flying. If it takes 200hrs for a CFI to solo someone in a Baron/Seneca/310/Aztec, they have no business being a CFI.

It's not just a matter of soloing the plane, it's a matter of being able to use things like radar and de-ice with any semblance of understanding. Yes, that can take a couple hundred hours, especially if you're doing a lot of your flying as cross-countries that the owner needs to do anyway.

 

[bbchien]

It all depends on the temperament of the pilot involved.

If he has the right temperament r.e. modifying risk, and the correct wallet, you can start in the B58TC given the high texas south and need to put six in the tube. But I actually think a C90 would be a better choice.

PVT ASEL in a traditional single. I'd even do the IR in the single. But everything after that is type transition.

Just let's not be reading about this guy in a year.
Hmmn.. "Alpine, TX". Gotta remember that.

 

[Henning]

It's not just a matter of soloing the plane, it's a matter of being able to use things like radar and de-ice with any semblance of understanding. Yes, that can take a couple hundred hours, especially if you're doing a lot of your flying as cross-countries that the owner needs to do anyway.

I understand that full airmanship may take 200hrs, however that is not what was said, what was said was 200hrs to solo. Even the insuance won't require that. If he does a PPME checkride at 40 hrs and has 25hrs of dual in the plane at that point, he will have 15hrs of solo to go before hauling pax. Yeah, first year insurance will be tough, but in reality, by the time he's done training to IR he'll have 100hrs in the airframe and his rates will be pretty mellow.

 

[Henning]

It all depends on the temperament of the pilot involved.

If he has the right temperament r.e. modifying risk, and the correct wallet, you can start in the B58TC given the high texas south and need to put six in the tube. But I actually think a C90 would be a better choice.

PVT ASEL in a traditional single. I'd even do the IR in the single. But everything after that is type transition.

Just let's not be reading about this guy in a year.
Hmmn.. "Alpine, TX". Gotta remember that.

That's really what it comes down to. Thing is, if the answer is 'no', it's no regardless of the equipment. If a C-90 is the best plane for the mission, just get the plane and hire a pro to fly with you for a few years. That's really the guy's safest option anyway, lots of benefits to a two pilot cockpit.

 

[wabower]

If he wants the safest plane available, tell him to get a King Air with auto feather and rudder boost. Unlike the piston twins, they will fly after an engine loss at the worst time, and in the event of an engine failure the pilot's only required actions are to add a bit of rudder pressure and call for the checklist.

 

[poadeleted20]

If it takes 200hrs to solo, the person shouldn't be flying. If it takes 200hrs for a CFI to solo someone in a Baron/Seneca/310/Aztec, they have no business being a CFI.

Well, when you sign someone off for solo in less than 200 hours from scratch all in a 58 Baron, you let us know. Of course, you're first going to have to earn a CFI ticket, so when you do that, let us know that, too. In addition, as I said above, there is the issue of getting the insurance company to sign off on such a deal. Finally, we're not talking about an aviation cadet in a full-time total immersion training program, we're talking about a working doctor who may not be available more than once a week for a couple-three hours.

Put it all together, and I believe it's possible it could take 200 hours to solo. It might take less, even considerably less, but it's important the trainee be able to handle that possibility. If not, start smaller and work up so the trainee gets some successes along the way to keep him motivated rather than a very long and possible frustrating road where the goal is very distant.

 

[poadeleted20]

If he does a PPME checkride at 40 hrs and has 25hrs of dual in the plane at that point,

I'd like to meet the working doctor who has earned a PP-AMEL in 40 hours total time all in a Baron and only 25 hours of dual.

 

[yakdriver]

My dad started in a Cherokee and just after solo bought a Comanche 250 and finished his PPL in that. Flew it for about 100hrs and bought a brand new Twin Comanche. in 1962 or 3. Had a couple of those and then had a couple of Aztecs then a couple Navaho's. He went back to an Aztec in 1985 and is still flying it at age 84. The Aztec is probably the best first twin as it is really docile. His has Robertson STOL on it and VMC is down around stall speed. Not as fast as a Baron or 310 bur has a big comfortable cabin with room for 6 adults. Kinda ugly, his wife has always called it Bullwinkle but a good robust airplane. Don

PS I don't think you can solo a twin as a student pilot.

 

[wabower]

I fail to understand why time to solo is of consequence in this situation, unless the Doc is planning to fly around by himself after he buys a plane.

The more germaine question is when he will be able to carry passengers IF he wants to do so with insurance coverage. If he takes the position that he doesn't need insurance coverage because his only passengers will be family members and employees (as does one of my big-time lawyer friends) then he might be able to do it more quickly.

Insurance requirements have dropped significantly since the downturn/collapse of 2008, so it's impossible to know the training requirements until you get a quote. Even so, my over-under bet under the best of circumstances would be ~150 hours.

Put it all together, and I believe it's possible it could take 200 hours to solo. It might take less, even considerably less, but it's important the trainee be able to handle that possibility. If not, start smaller and work up so the trainee gets some successes along the way to keep him motivated rather than a very long and possible frustrating road where the goal is very distant.

 

[gismo]

I'd like to meet the working doctor who has earned a PP-AMEL in 40 hours total time all in a Baron and only 25 hours of dual.

Maybe in an Air Cam but that's probably not gonna meet the Doctor's mission needs.

 

[denverpilot]

Everyone forgot the important question.

"Doctor" doesn't mean he has any money nowadays.

Can he afford the care and feeding of two overpriced air-cooled 1930's tractor engines?

 

[GCA319]

I'm with most other people here. Don't buy an A36 if your short term goal is to buy a twin...Just explain to him that he may need alot of dual in the plane with a good MEI before he can be proficient enough to solo it. Also talk to him about the possibility of getting his IR in the plane he buys.

 

[N747JB]

Most of you are answering the wrong question, she asked about buying a first airplane, not learning to fly and get a PPL in a twin. I think the idea of this doctor getting his PPL in a rental, then buying a twin as his first plane makes some sense, depending on the mission. Getting a Baron or 310R and flying 40-50 hours with a CFII to build time towards his IR, would work, he can take his family with him with the CFI in the right seat. I don't think I was near smart enough to do it that way, I had 500 hours and my IR before I got my multi.
The right twin to buy depends on the mission, from a Twinkie to a King Air 200

 

[poadeleted20]

I fail to understand why time to solo is of consequence in this situation...

Because soloing is a major psychological milestone for Student Pilots, and when solo takes a long time, they get very discouraged and often quit. I agree with you that it should not be this way, but the fact of the matter is that it is a major concern in flight training.

 

[poadeleted20]

Most of you are answering the wrong question, she asked about buying a first airplane, not learning to fly and get a PPL in a twin. I think the idea of this doctor getting his PPL in a rental, then buying a twin as his first plane makes some sense, depending on the mission. Getting a Baron or 310R and flying 40-50 hours with a CFII to build time towards his IR, would work, he can take his family with him with the CFI in the right seat.

Agreed.

 

[ronnieh]

Cap'n where were you back in Febuary when I was advocating that the solo is important, and that dragging it out was detrimental to the student? You could have at least thrown a bucket of water on the flames as I was being burned at the stake

 

[wabower]

20 years ago I would have agreed, primarily based on the way the training was administered and student expectations. Time to solo had become the "big-dick-measuring-stick" for student pilots, and vestiges of this outmoded approach obviously remain in some areas.

Curriculum modification/redesign have changed the game, at least at the big training organizations in the DFW area. Expected time to solo (in Cessna 172's) has now been recast to ~18 hours, simply because the demands of operating an airplane in the busy DFW airspace requires more training time than did when I was flying a NORDO Luscombe in Clinton, OK in 1959.

I personally think there's more upside than downside to converting some of the previously post-solo maneuvers to the pre-solo portion, simply because the repitition/association pattern-development part of the training can be better developed. That's not to say the same instructor and student couldn't go to Clinton, OK and easily solo in less than 10 hours, but the student would have no chance if the weather closed in and the only VFR option was to fly to one of the busy Dallas-metro airports to land.

I don't talk to enough student pilots to know how important this subject might be to them, but by coincidence several friends and acquaintances (FOF's) have pursured their PPL during the past couple of years, and some have flown with me in the 180. During our conversations their answers to the "so how's it going?" questions have not indicated any displeasure with the current system, and the responses have been perfunctory with respect to their progress "doing OK, on schedule to solo when I'm supposed to" etc. It's not that they don't know when it's coming and aren't looking forward to it, just that they know there are some other things to accomplish first.

Because soloing is a major psychological milestone for Student Pilots, and when solo takes a long time, they get very discouraged and often quit. I agree with you that it should not be this way, but the fact of the matter is that it is a major concern in flight training.

 

[Henning]

The real difference is in why the person is becoming a pilot. If they are in it for short term goals and self esteem issues then time to solo is a big deal. If they are in it for the long term having an end use for aviation then solo is not priority issue; priority goes to getting the aircraft's mission accomplished.

 

[zaitcev]

Expected time to solo (in Cessna 172's) has now been recast to ~18 hours

And yet I soloed at 30 hours.

During our conversations their answers to the "so how's it going?" questions have not indicated any displeasure with the current system, and the responses have been perfunctory with respect to their progress "doing OK, on schedule to solo when I'm supposed to" etc.

That's the same brave face I put on it, too. But I was fuming internally. I flew a stage check (or "second opinion") with another instructor, per FBO policy, at 24 hours. He passed me as satisfactory. But my CFI knew that I was still shaky and was not comfortable unleashing me onto the world, so we went on to for another 10 hours of T+G, ground ref, go-around procedures.

I don't think communications were a problem. I think I gave more heartburn to the ABQ Tower and Approach after I got my ticket than before. Just a couple of weeks ago I could not find the correct exit and almost turned around on the runway, so tower cut in with "no, nooo, not yet!" (it was at night, but still, ugh). Although certainly DFW is Bravo and we're only Charlie.

 

[wabower]

Everybody struggles with something. Sometimes it's pre-solo stuff, sometimes it happens later. I've learned that trying to forecast if/when they will bang their head on something is of little value, my objective is to analyze the problem and help them fix it.

And yet I soloed at 30 hours.


That's the same brave face I put on it, too. But I was fuming internally. I flew a stage check (or "second opinion") with another instructor, per FBO policy, at 24 hours. He passed me as satisfactory. But my CFI knew that I was still shaky and was not comfortable unleashing me onto the world, so we went on to for another 10 hours of T+G, ground ref, go-around procedures.

I don't think communications were a problem. I think I gave more heartburn to the ABQ Tower and Approach after I got my ticket than before. Just a couple of weeks ago I could not find the correct exit and almost turned around on the runway, so tower cut in with "no, nooo, not yet!" (it was at night, but still, ugh). Although certainly DFW is Bravo and we're only Charlie.

 

[poadeleted20]

Cap'n where were you back in Febuary when I was advocating that the solo is important, and that dragging it out was detrimental to the student? You could have at least thrown a bucket of water on the flames as I was being burned at the stake

I think solo should not be important, but the fact is that in the minds of most trainees, it is. I'm not sure how to fix that, but until we do, we who do flight training must recognize it as we develop training programs.

 

[W. Stewart]

I'm with most other people here. Don't buy an A36 if your short term goal is to buy a twin...Just explain to him that he may need alot of dual in the plane with a good MEI before he can be proficient enough to solo it. Also talk to him about the possibility of getting his IR in the plane he buys.

I don't read "most other people's" posts to be saying that. I am a firm believer in working up in complexity, as well as the huge dollar savings that would be realized by gaining the instrument rating and meaningful hours in a complex single.

I, too, am what some people would assume is a "rich doctor", but I am also very frugal, as are many doctors. Actually, there are very few truly rich doctors--we are basically smucks, pawns in a system in which we have very little control.. but I digress! I got my private in a rented 172, then flew a friend's 182 for a while until I bought a Cardinal RG, in which I got the instrument rating and accumulated about 900 hours (and lots of educational experience) before moving to a 210.

I can tell you that, in those first few years of flying, it was my routine to go fly at least once a week, to build and maintain skill. Now, with the higher fuel burn of the 210 (and the higher gas prices, of course), I cringe at the thought of going to fly "just to lubricate the engine" and to maintain some level of proficiency. I have to make myself go fly once a month for these purposes and to do a VOR check. My wife doesn't even need to remind me that for every hour that I DON'T fly, we can afford to go out to dinner at a nice restaurant.

I vote for a complex single: Cardinal RG or 210 in the Cessna line, Arrow or Saratoga if Piper (and possibly interested in a Seneca), or Bonanza if thinking ultimately about a Baron. I know that he is eager to take the whole family travelling, but I can tell you from experience that that just doesn't happen all that often, and they might not be all that eager to travel with him until he gains some meaningful experience.

Buy something that you can afford to fly a lot.

Wells

 

[Henning]

I think solo should not be important, but the fact is that in the minds of most trainees, it is. I'm not sure how to fix that, but until we do, we who do flight training must recognize it as we develop training programs.

You can't really. If they decided to take on flying to prove something, then all of this stuff counts immensely. Either you change their outlook on aviation or you do your best to get them to their goals.

 

[poadeleted20]

You can't really. If they decided to take on flying to prove something, then all of this stuff counts immensely. Either you change their outlook on aviation or you do your best to get them to their goals.

You ever try to change an MD's outlook on anything? That's why I suggested making sure he can deal with a long hard road to solo before getting him into a twin for ab initio training.

Of course, it turns out this guy has already soloed in a 152, and the question is whether the first plane he buys (not the first one in which he trains) can be a twin, and the answer is, of course, "yes." But I'd still take him up through a the steps, say, the 152 he's flying to a 172 to a 172RG in rentals and getting his IR before buying a Bonanza or a Baron.

 

[Jeanie]

There are no rentals out here... That is in alpine or ft. Stockton. He plans to get a plane upon finishing his PP and start his IR training in that plane.

The single will make most sense for him at this time.

 

[poadeleted20]

The single will make most sense for him at this time.

It shoudn't be that hard to work out a way to do complex, HP, and IR training in one integrated program in something like a Bonanza. That will allow him to rack up sufficient time in type to obtain reasonably-priced insurance upon completion of the program, after "dual only" insurance during the program. Including one landing over 50nm away on each training flight will also help.