Single leg or plan a stop?

cowman

cowman

Final Approach
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If all goes to plan and we can get it started tomorrow morning I'm planning on getting my airplane home. Normally I fly this trip direct(done it several times) and it takes 2.5-3hours depending on winds.

Tomorrow's forecast is showing me some pretty nasty headwinds and foreflight is telling me to expect 3h 41m.

Aircaft is a 78 Piper Archer II. Route is KPPQ -> KEAU @4500'. I plan at 117kts airspeed and 10GPH and these numbers seem to be nearly dead on with reality so far.

With 48gallons usable fuel onboard that still should leave me with about an hour of reserve fuel.

However, I've never flown quite this long of a leg before. It's also going to be bitter cold out and I'm not sure if that might do something to the fuel consumption rate.

On the other hand I'd prefer to just get home, winds are supposed to be nasty at a lot of the potential airports along the route. I don't really want to deal with that at an unfamiliar field if I don't have to.... and again I should have an hour reserve.

I'm pretty sure it's a safe flight to make and I should stop being a weenie and just go for it but I thought I'd run this by you guys and see if you agree.
 
you should be able to do better than 10gph. You should be able to set 8.5-9gph for your best compromise between speed and economy. I used to plan on 8gph @ 110 on the warrior II. Archer with the late pants (post 78) you should be able to do a couple knots better on 9gph. At that rate, your airplane is a 5:15 hour endurance ship @ 9gph. You have plenty to get home in one leg. Just bring a gatorade bottle. For me, leg wise once I start hitting 4.5 I'm putting it down. That's 45 minute reserve assuming it even takes you that long. WOT, lean til rough then slightly rich until smooth, set RPM with red knob to best economy RPM circa 65-70% per POH. Enjoy the trip.
 
Take off, get level in cruise, and look at the total ETE as you approach your mid-point fuel stop. If you are on or ahead of schedule, keep going. If you are running behind, stop.
 
Might be a gametime decision. Plan for a fuel stop that way you have an idea of where you are going to stop but you should be able to do it non stop.
 
Depends on your comfort level. I personally would do one leg. If I did this trip, I would use KBRL as a time to make an assessment of the groundspeed I am getting and if I would be able to make the additional 70 miles. Assuming you are flying during the day, looks like you have 50 minutes of wiggle room, which is almost 1/3 of your normal flight time along that route.
 
In my experience headwinds are always worse than forecast and tailwinds always missing or lighter than forecast.

Fly LOWER and stay out of the higher winds - whats wrong with 2500 or 3000? Will it matter?

Pressures are supposed to be REALLY high over the midwest tomorrow - as in 31" and higher. So how do you really know what your altitude is? Not only will it affect your altimeter, if will also affect the power the engine produces. Meaning you might see TAS higher than normal at the same altitudes . . . .

Also - in truly cold Arctic conditions you tend to see it warmer aloft. . . . .

Just keep in mind the need for pre-heat and having the oil cooler winterizer plate on . . . . when its -10F out its kind of hard to get the oils temps up and keep them there -
 
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I would think that you should be able to do it Non-stop. But as said before, you can plan a stop, then if things are going your way, continue, if not then stop and get gas.
I would flight plan 10 GPH in our PA-28-180, with 49.75 gal. useable, that would be close to 5 hours. Actual fuel burn was never over 8.1 @ 115kts true including, taxi, takeoff, climb. Of course, I throttle back, and lean aggresively. Difference between 117, and 115 is only a few minutes, and fuel savings is several $$
 
Pre-heat is being set up tonight. Winterization plate has been installed since Nov.

Throttling back is an idea... might push this out to 4 hours but I suppose that might be ok.

It's a few kts less headwind down low, I could go 2500 or 3000. I won't have reliable ADS-B down there though and may not have radar coverage on flight following + not being up into a cruising(above 3000agl) altitude is generally something I try to avoid.
 
Check the weather just before take off,start the flight ,monitor fuel burn,make the decision in the air ,when you have actual conditions.
 
I'm thinking about KLSE for a land or proceed point along the route. It's about 45min from home so by then I should know if I'm within my planned time enroute or not but still have a good reserve.

Also, the winds are supposed to be calmer there and I know exactly where it is. I fly by that field every time I go this way, it's impossible to miss.
 
You are not Delta airlines: If the winds suck, land, refuel no matter the cost, urinate, launch 30 minutes later, tops. Don't be a dumbass.
 
I would try for non-stop. I would switch tanks every hour. If at the 2 hour mark I am I am not past the 1/2 way point I would plan on a fuel stop.

Perhaps you should try some economy cruising to see how low you can get your GPH and MPG. Throttle back to under 65% power and lean until you see an RPM drop, then add just enough mixture to bring the RPM back up. I probably wouldn't do it on this trip because you don't know what results you will get. Need to really do this a few times to see if you can match book numbers or not.

Brian
 
Do what your comfortable with. Colder denser air will allow you to lean a bit more and save some fuel but I would not plan on that. Also consider that if its "bitter" cold you may want to land to warm up if your heater is only so so. Plan a midway stop and see how you feel and your fuel situation when you reach that midway point.
 
Plan a few stops along the route with cheap fuel, runways aligned with forecast wind, easy in / out, etc. That way you can pull the plug without hesitation at any point along the way should you decide your fuel is not holding out.

Winds can really mess you up, especially in a slower plane. You will be tempted to fly lower but that will result in greater fuel burn than what you may typically see at higher altitudes.

The one time I almost ran out of fuel I was flying at midnight in winter back home to Tennessee from Philadelphia. The winds at one point decreased my usual 180kt speed to around half that. I should have stopped for fuel. When I got to my home field I clicked the mic only to have no lights turn on. I diverted to the nearby field and barely got in on fumes. Don't paint yourself into a corner.
 
dans2992 said:
Take off, get level in cruise, and look at the total ETE as you approach your mid-point fuel stop. If you are on or ahead of schedule, keep going. If you are running behind, stop.
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:yeahthat:

And the lower temps should not have a significant effect on fuel flow if you're leaning correctly.
 
Headwinds are supposed to be less terrible towards the evening so I'm waiting. Just praying the engine will start :yikes:
 
As others have said, plan a couple of possible stops and make one of them if necessary. DO NOT, however, let get-home-itis cause you to eat into that one hour reserve. The reserve is there in case EAU is closed for some reason. Gear-up landing, airplane at the runway intersection, etc. WX ... It can happen.

When you find yourself thinking "It will probably be OK." that is the signal to stop.
 
cowman said:
If all goes to plan and we can get it started tomorrow morning I'm planning on getting my airplane home. Normally I fly this trip direct(done it several times) and it takes 2.5-3hours depending on winds.

Tomorrow's forecast is showing me some pretty nasty headwinds and foreflight is telling me to expect 3h 41m.

Aircaft is a 78 Piper Archer II. Route is KPPQ -> KEAU @4500'. I plan at 117kts airspeed and 10GPH and these numbers seem to be nearly dead on with reality so far.

With 48gallons usable fuel onboard that still should leave me with about an hour of reserve fuel.

However, I've never flown quite this long of a leg before. It's also going to be bitter cold out and I'm not sure if that might do something to the fuel consumption rate.

On the other hand I'd prefer to just get home, winds are supposed to be nasty at a lot of the potential airports along the route. I don't really want to deal with that at an unfamiliar field if I don't have to.... and again I should have an hour reserve.

I'm pretty sure it's a safe flight to make and I should stop being a weenie and just go for it but I thought I'd run this by you guys and see if you agree.
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I'd stop halfway for lunch, sitting in a PA28 for 3.5hrs doesn't sound like something I'd want to do unless I had to.

I've flown all sorts of piston singles across the country, I'm just not into beating myself up unless I'm getting paid well to do it.

cowman said:
It's a few kts less headwind down low, I could go 2500 or 3000. I won't have reliable ADS-B down there though and may not have radar coverage on flight following + not being up into a cruising(above 3000agl) altitude is generally something I try to avoid.
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What your glide ratio? I know I only get 1nm per 1k AGL, for a trip that long, in that plane, over that country I'd go higher, besides you could make up for the winds with a higher TAS and lower fuel flows up high.

FltPlan.com is really good for this stuff, once you put in all your climb, cruise and decent settings it's rather good a picking the optimal altitude.
 
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Winds are usually lower at 500 AGL. Plus you don't have to worry about other traffic down there with you - just the towers.
 
Hmmmm. I show it at 3 hours 9 min @ 100kts, accounting for a decent headwind with your cruise speed. There's no way I would go under 1 hour reserve fuel. That's my hard stop rule, but others are different.

I'd sure stop somewhere and get gas at a cheap place along the way. You've got winter weather, headwinds, and get-home-itis. Just make the stop and you can also slow down to 55% power and lean well and get much more fuel economy. So it takes you 5 hours door to door rather than 4? All you were gonna do with that extra hour is watch reruns of Big Bang Theory. Meh - stop and smell the 100LL.

<edit: http://airnav.com/airport/AWG has gas for $4.48, courtesy car, AWOS, MIRL/PAPI/REIL. What's not to love? Give em some business, maybe the FBO girl is hot as well. >
 
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Have multiple plans to choose from ready to go, monitor your progress and implement the appropriate plan for the actual conditions incurred. With a strong headwind I tend to be conservative stopping for fuel, because if you don't make the last stretch, then you have to turn back downwind to fuel and give up ground; that is really inefficient.
 
I am with the group that says tentatively plan a stop, then monitor your progress and make the decision in the air. At least for me, flying along wondering if I am going to make it isn't much fun. Much more relaxing to stop, top off, eat, etc. and enjoy the trip. Be SURE you lean aggressively.
 
Low hours? Stop halfway , relax, have a coke or coffee, etc. get some more gas then go home. You'll have made another landing and takeoff plus the gas will add to your peace of mind. The mere fact that you are asking is why you should stop.
 
This all turned out to be moot as I didn't even get past the preflight. Leaking fuel from around the strainer and the left tank is slightly lower than I left it.
:mad2:

Tomorrow is probably out due to snow showers near the destination but the mechanic is coming back out with his salamander heater and hopefully we can get it going and move it to a nearby airport with a hangar that's heated. Then maybe I can go Fri. Failing that, screw it I have to come back here by car in a few weeks anyway. I can get amtrack most of the way home and my wife can pick me up.
 
cowman said:
This all turned out to be moot as I didn't even get past the preflight. Leaking fuel from around the strainer and the left tank is slightly lower than I left it.
:mad2:

Tomorrow is probably out due to snow showers near the destination but the mechanic is coming back out with his salamander heater and hopefully we can get it going and move it to a nearby airport with a hangar that's heated. Then maybe I can go Fri. Failing that, screw it I have to come back here by car in a few weeks anyway. I can get amtrack most of the way home and my wife can pick me up.
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Little snow never hurt anyone :dunno:
 
I lurned in flight skool last year that a flight plan isn't perfect if you arn't on final wile the gasoline stops wurking the engine.

People.... relax.... I no how to spell and I'm kidding.
 
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