Singe engine stall in a twin near gross

Ron Levy said:
Sorry -- I'm not buying 1000 feet more landing roll in a 310 (that's nearly double the landing roll, IIRC) unless you have some validated test data to support that idea. The drag difference at touchdown speed isn't that much, and you are minus the residual thrust as you get slow.
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Have you ever landed with one feathered? I know in the Aerostar, it is a significant difference in drag. Haven't done it in the Twinkie yet, although at altitude it is surely a big drag difference. Agree, though, that you really don't want to do a lot different than a standard approach and landing. Just do not come up short and need power, and don't come up high and fast. This is one approach you want to be on your numbers for.

As far as turning into the dead engine, I do it all the time, but make sure the bank is small and you pay attention to speed and bank angle. Practice and checkrides every six months, I swear I fly more on one engine than two.

The engine failure in the Aztec didn't afford us the time required to identify the failed engine, due mostly to a switching of controls and the fact that it happened just after rotation, before the gear were up. With the windmilling prop, we were never able to get it to blue line, and with decaying airspeed, elected to set it down where we could. Short runway with no overrun area, so you take what you can find.

An Aztec plows a pretty wide row of corn.
 
Ron Levy said:
Why would you have a longer rollout if you don't do anything unusual? If anything, you have lower residual thrust, and so rollout should be shorter, not longer.
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No windmilling prop drag on the feathered-engine side? Have you landed with one feathered?

Bob Gardner
 
bbchien said:
The old wives tale comes from big ships with big propellors that blank large parts of wings, when they won't feather. In THAT case I respect not turning into the dead engine. Of course, that means at gross, youre going down.....albeit slowly.ROTF.
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gismo said:
First of all, turns into a dead engine are only an issue if you are slow (i.e. close to Vmc). Second, the real problem is letting the airplane become uncoordinated as you're turning, especially when you are rolling back to finish the turn. Typically with both engines running you need to apply some right rudder to prevent adverse yaw as you roll out of a left turn. With the left (critical) engine caged or worse yet windmilling, you may find that there is insufficient rudder travel/authority to do this and the result is a sideslip towards the right engine. This in turn increases Vmc further eroding control authority and the only way to recover is to unload the wing and/or reduce power, none of which is comfortable or instinctive when close to the ground.
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So we have some difference of opinions here. Looking at the video of the King Air that went over, it wouldn't surprise me if he had some level of effect with this. He didn't seem to be going slow, but it's hard to judge. And if he had done some other non-coordinated or otherwise bad maneuver that effectively raised Vmc, that could have created an issue.

In practical terms, I agree that turning into the dead engine is manageable, and obviously would be needed for adjustments on approach for your degree changes here and there. But it also makes sense to try to make your major turns into your good engine, which is the way the plane is happier anyway in such situations.

JHW said:
no drag from the feathered prop. It's significantly longer. In a 310R add 1000ft unless you want to smoke the brakes. Another reason every ME student should do a landing with one feathered and not rely on this simulated neutral thrust nonsense. Some things won't be believed until you see it yourself.
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Yep. Done it in both the Aztec and the 310.

Although in thinking through this thread I think what it has brought to light is reminding me I haven't done much for OEI training in about a year, since I did my 135 ride in the Navajo. That combined with the fact that I'm not flying nearly as much as I used to, I need to make a point of going out and doing some to refresh my memory on the finer points. Might be a good excuse to finally go spend some time in a sim as well.
 
If you train in the sim, ask for a glider approach (both feathered) to see what happens with no drag on either side. Even money says you won't get down and stopped on the runway.

Ted DuPuis said:
So we have some difference of opinions here. Looking at the video of the King Air that went over, it wouldn't surprise me if he had some level of effect with this. He didn't seem to be going slow, but it's hard to judge. And if he had done some other non-coordinated or otherwise bad maneuver that effectively raised Vmc, that could have created an issue.

In practical terms, I agree that turning into the dead engine is manageable, and obviously would be needed for adjustments on approach for your degree changes here and there. But it also makes sense to try to make your major turns into your good engine, which is the way the plane is happier anyway in such situations.



Yep. Done it in both the Aztec and the 310.

Although in thinking through this thread I think what it has brought to light is reminding me I haven't done much for OEI training in about a year, since I did my 135 ride in the Navajo. That combined with the fact that I'm not flying nearly as much as I used to, I need to make a point of going out and doing some to refresh my memory on the finer points. Might be a good excuse to finally go spend some time in a sim as well.
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LDJones said:
Another interesting YouTube find....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTQwkKameLg
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I have seen that one also. Seems to be the same as the king air in the last video, except he seems like he has gotten really slow.

I have been reading the posts regarding the king air crash. Most say that he is turning into the dead engine, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but he also looks like he is carrying enough speed. My opinion is that is appears to me when he was in the turn he applied a good amount of power (for whatever reason) and did not compensate for with corrections, all while in a turn. Just my thoughts. I hate to try and speculate, but at the same time something they did was not right. One engine landing in the king air should be mundane thing. Crazy how fast it happens.
 
wabower said:
If you train in the sim, ask for a glider approach (both feathered) to see what happens with no drag on either side. Even money says you won't get down and stopped on the runway.
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That would be a fun thing to try in the sim. Best glide in the 310 is 110 MPH. I've been curious as to how it would perform, just never curious enough to try the hard way.
 
I have landed my Aero Commander with one shut down and feathered. No big deal, but the conditions were all set up perfectly in a training environment. All Commanders will fly all day long on one engine. I even get a slight climb out of mine at low levels with the gear out and one unfeathered. Wasn't at gross, though. VMC is low, but above stall - and the rudder is big. That's not the case with the Aerostar I'm wanting to buy - there it's the opposite - VMC is below clean stall and the POH says if that happens in critical stage, then it's best to close throttle on good one and land straight ahead.
 
stratobee said:
I have landed my Aero Commander with one shut down and feathered. No big deal, but the conditions were all set up perfectly in a training environment. All Commanders will fly all day long on one engine. I even get a slight climb out of mine at low levels with the gear out and one unfeathered. Wasn't at gross, though. VMC is low, but above stall - and the rudder is big. That's not the case with the Aerostar I'm wanting to buy - there it's the opposite - VMC is below clean stall and the POH says if that happens in critical stage, then it's best to close throttle on good one and land straight ahead.
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Doesn't suprise me.

When they were first certifying the AC 500, they removed one prop (put it inside the cabin) and flew from OK to DC.
 
wabower said:
If you train in the sim, ask for a glider approach (both feathered) to see what happens with no drag on either side. Even money says you won't get down and stopped on the runway.
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BTDT, and I agree with your assessment, especially if the pilot is unwilling to use a significant slip to shed excess airspeed.

Another eyeopener in a twin sim is recovery from a dual engine failure at 100 AGL on takeoff (think fuel contamination). It's almost unbelievable how far and quickly you need to put the nose down in order to survive. Remember the props are windmilling and you won't have any time or bandwidth to feather them before you hit the ground.
 
BTDT. It brings to mind Failure in a ultralight (d_mned 2 stroke rotaxes) in which the rotax stops. Stick goes forward near instantaneously.....or you're hosed.
 
bbchien said:
BTDT. It brings to mind Failure in a ultralight (d_mned 2 stroke rotaxes) in which the rotax stops. Stick goes forward near instantaneously.....or you're hosed.
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Yeah, well if it flies like a large brick attached to a small barn door...
 
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