Simulated engine out. Chopping the throttle at 50'

My instructor was always pulling surprises. Even at night he pulled the throttle and did other things such as a simulated complete electrcial failure. I am forever grateful to him.
 
Old Geek said:
Looking back at my training, the most memorable event was just before I took my checkride. My instructor and I were going over all the rough spots and while doing a touch and go, the instructor reached over and chopped the throttle to idle at 50' on my climb out and said "put it back down". It caught me completely by surprise. I managed a reasonable landing, but have to admit I was shaking a little. As a further point of information, we had at least 3000' feet of good runway ahead of us when he cut power.

Looking back, the landing was a pivotal point in building confidence in my plane handling ability. Any of you instructors hand this problem to your students?
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I like this. Mine kind of does this stuff on my first few lessons..
 
nosehair said:
Bob, a flight instructor has to teach more than what an examiner may test.
Examinations are standardized for a variety of reasons besides safety, but just on the safety issue, a skilled instructor can approach the '50 foot cut' in a safe and learning environment that promotes confidence and skill in this expected emergency maneuver.

An endorsement to take a certification test is a statement that the applicant has demonstrated proficiency in "all pilot operations".

I read that to include, at least, all maneuvers in the FAA Flight Training Handbook.
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My point was that if anything were to go wrong, the instructor would have to justify having pulled an engine at such a low altitude when a (hopefully more experienced) examiner is prohibited from doing so.

Bob
 
Curious: if an instructor chops power at 50 feet as described by many of you and you are expected to land on the runway, is there any communication with tower that this training exercise is going to happen? I realize it's not required, but wonder if the CFI gives a heads up to tower.
 
My instructor took me 3,000' agl over the airport and turned the engine off. I had to land in the middle of the runway 3 times or I would not pass. Best training I've ever had.
 
Badger said:
Curious: if an instructor chops power at 50 feet as described by many of you and you are expected to land on the runway, is there any communication with tower that this training exercise is going to happen? I realize it's not required, but wonder if the CFI gives a heads up to tower.
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The instructor asks for the "option" and when the tower clears you for the option you have permission to do about anything you want on the runway.
 
yakdriver said:
The instructor asks for the "option" and when the tower clears you for the option you have permission to do about anything you want on the runway.
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Thanks. So these chops are usually done as a planned touch and go or stop and go - not a take off after taxi?

That makes sense. :yes:
 
My CFI just told the tower we'd be simulating a failed engine after rotation. Tower said, "knock yourself out" but that if we did it, he wanted us to make it a touch and go instead of a stop and go. Someone else needed the rwy.
 
Garthur said:
He would also pull the power back a few hundred RPM while we are rolling down the runway and then say go ahead a take off.
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Every instructor I had would throw a fit if I took my hand off the throttle any time we were on climb out below TPA, or any time on final.

I did have one grab it, pull it and say "Engine failure. Where are you going to land?" at about 50-100 AGL one time. We had enough runway left, so it was kind of a no-brainer. Several other times, though, he'd pick the absolute worst time on climb-out and say, "OK, you just lost the engine. What now?" My response was usually, "Well, we'll probably live but the airplane is toast. We're landing right (point to least horrible option) there". Only once were we high enough I thought I could make the turn back.
 
DaleB said:
Every instructor I had would throw a fit if I took my hand off the throttle any time we were on climb out below TPA, or any time on final.
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If you ever move up to jets, you'll have the instructor throwing a fit if you keep your hand on the throttles during climbout.
 
I'll do stuff like that just as long as runway length and traffic allow for a safe outcome.
 
bobmrg said:
My point was that if anything were to go wrong, the instructor would have to justify having pulled an engine at such a low altitude when a (hopefully more experienced) examiner is prohibited from doing so.

Bob
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I know Bob, and my point is that the comparison is not appropriate.
For one thing, the examiner is not the PIC and is not training. It is not a dual flight.
The instructor first demonstrates, then appropriately allows the student to gradually develop appropriate and consistent control response and reaction before introducing a surprise engine cut or maneuver that could be dangerous if the applicant is not trained or prepared.
I am making the specific point that the instructor is responsible for more than what is minimally tested.
And the FAA FOI and FTH as referenced in each PTS will back that up.

My main point, Bob, is to try to stop the idea that teaching the test is all that is required.
 
nosehair said:
I know Bob, and my point is that the comparison is not appropriate.
For one thing, the examiner is not the PIC and is not training. It is not a dual flight.
The instructor first demonstrates, then appropriately allows the student to gradually develop appropriate and consistent control response and reaction before introducing a surprise engine cut or maneuver that could be dangerous if the applicant is not trained or prepared.
I am making the specific point that the instructor is responsible for more than what is minimally tested.
And the FAA FOI and FTH as referenced in each PTS will back that up.

My main point, Bob, is to try to stop the idea that teaching the test is all that is required.
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I'll second this. So many pilots in the last 20 years or so have minimal training and the accident stats show it. Don
 
Maybe my plane glides better than the rest of yours (doubt it, it's a '64 172), but my instructor has always told me that 800 feet MSL (about 500 AGL) was enough to turn around and make the field. Or did I misunderstand something?
 
livitup said:
Maybe my plane glides better than the rest of yours (doubt it, it's a '64 172), but my instructor has always told me that 800 feet MSL (about 500 AGL) was enough to turn around and make the field. Or did I misunderstand something?
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Have you done it in 500'?
 
No, the most we have done so far (in 10-ish hours) was power off at mid field (which was, predictably, a non-event). He taught me to turn crosswind after takeoff at 800, and I thought I remembered him saying that we start our turn then because "we could make it back if the engine quits." But now this discussion is making me doubt my recall, and I can't ask him until Thursday.
 
livitup said:
No, the most we have done so far (in 10-ish hours) was power off at mid field (which was, predictably, a non-event). He taught me to turn crosswind after takeoff at 800, and I thought I remembered him saying that we start our turn then because "we could make it back if the engine quits." But now this discussion is making me doubt my recall, and I can't ask him until Thursday.
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I would do my own research on this subject and practice it many times in the air to see what the real numbers are. This is just too important a topic to take anyones word for it.

Here's some food for thought:

The turn back is 270 degrees followed by a 90 degree turn the opposite direction for runway alignment. Standard rate turns would mean 2 minutes just for the turning that puts you on final. What's your power off rate of descent at best glide and standard rate turns?

Of course you can reduce the amount of altitude needed considerably by making a turning approach to touch down after about a 225 degree initial turn, also steepening the rate of turn will reduce the radius and help a lot. That will also increase your rate of descent while increasing the stall speed. Optimally a 45 degree turn done just above stall speed would be ideal.

Even with 10 hours you already know that stalling and spinning from low altitude means the end. Sooo.... in a panic situation can you reliability execute a 45 degree power off turn back near 1.05 Vs?

Also, consider how long it will take to recognize and take action when you do have an engine problem, it's not the same as when the instructor pulls the throttle and says, "engine out". Your glide rate will also be different without the trust provided by idle power.

Here's one of the many papers published on it if you are interested. Keep in mind this was written presumably for a Naval aviator or other well trained current pilot:

http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf

After doing this for real I'm pretty conservative with my planning.
 
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