Signs/symptoms of Hypoxia

dagmba

dagmba

Filing Flight Plan
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David
Hello, I am brand new to POA and this is my first post.

I recently came across the website for a nationally recognized CFII who has some excellent training materials and videos posted. One of them, however, flies against everything I have ever learned or taught about medicine. This CFII, in a video about hypoxia, states that, for a given individual, that individual's signs and symptoms of hypoxia will always be the same and will always occur in the same order. Differing persons may have differing signs/symptoms, but will be constant for that person. I was the director of a large community college-based paramedic training program for a number of years, and in all my training and education, I have never heard this before, and frankly, I don't buy it. I posted a question to the CFII to cite his sources for making this claim, but never saw a reply. Oxygen, in my considered opinion, like any other critical nourishment for the brain, when deprived, can present in numerous ways depending on many variables. There's no way one can absolutely say hypoxia will present the same way each time per individual.

Agree? I'm open to learning new things if I have missed something.

David
 
dagmba said:
Hello, I am brand new to POA and this is my first post.

I recently came across the website for a nationally recognized CFII who has some excellent training materials and videos posted. One of them, however, flies against everything I have ever learned or taught about medicine. This CFII, in a video about hypoxia, states that, for a given individual, that individual's signs and symptoms of hypoxia will always be the same and will always occur in the same order. Differing persons may have differing signs/symptoms, but will be constant for that person. I was the director of a large community college-based paramedic training program for a number of years, and in all my training and education, I have never heard this before, and frankly, I don't buy it. I posted a question to the CFII to cite his sources for making this claim, but never saw a reply. Oxygen, in my considered opinion, like any other critical nourishment for the brain, when deprived, can present in numerous ways depending on many variables. There's no way one can absolutely say hypoxia will present the same way each time per individual.

Agree? I'm open to learning new things if I have missed something.

David
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David,

I think one of the ways that pilots can safely experience what symptoms they get, and in what order, is in a special chamber. I know that doesn't quite answer your question, but I've seen videos of pilots doing this and it may help you. This lets them know when to carry oxygen with them (depending on their planned altitudes for an upcoming flight).
 
dagmba said:
Hello, I am brand new to POA and this is my first post.

I recently came across the website for a nationally recognized CFII who has some excellent training materials and videos posted. One of them, however, flies against everything I have ever learned or taught about medicine. This CFII, in a video about hypoxia, states that, for a given individual, that individual's signs and symptoms of hypoxia will always be the same and will always occur in the same order. Differing persons may have differing signs/symptoms, but will be constant for that person. I was the director of a large community college-based paramedic training program for a number of years, and in all my training and education, I have never heard this before, and frankly, I don't buy it. I posted a question to the CFII to cite his sources for making this claim, but never saw a reply. Oxygen, in my considered opinion, like any other critical nourishment for the brain, when deprived, can present in numerous ways depending on many variables. There's no way one can absolutely say hypoxia will present the same way each time per individual.

Agree? I'm open to learning new things if I have missed something.

David
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Welcome to POA. I dont immediately know the answer but just curious, do you have a website/video link for us? Id be curious to see it.
 
Welcome to POA. Do keep in mind that CFI's have only the most marginal medical training, mostly pertaining to the use and application of band aids. Wouldn't prevent many from assuming they know everything, though.
 
Andrew:

www.mzeroa.com see the 31 days to safer pilot challenge, day 14 - Hypoxia
I mean no disrespect to this guy! I really enjoy his site, and have no issue with him, just don't believe his claim in that video.

Kimberly,

I am aware that some airline pilots go through the type of testing that you're describing. Sure, it will show you what you experience in that scenario, that time, but I don't buy that you will always experience the same signs and symptoms, in the same order, on each incident of hypoxia. (I know you're not suggesting that, also. thanks for the reply.)
 
I am always skeptical about any conclusions that start with "Never" and "Always." The fact that he didn't answer your challenge speaks volumes.

I think the training you will get as a Private Pilot will be a cursory one regarding Hypoxia. More to expose you to possible/"common" symptoms so you may be more likely to recognize the onset of hypoxia rather than to give you a detailed, progressive checklist to follow.

by the way... Welcome!
 
Please keep in mind that all it takes to be "nationally recognized" as a CFI these days is to have a website and a pulse.
 
I'm not sure with hypoxia, but my experience with it is that the dulling of the mind is so incipient that there aren't really any 'onset symptoms' that you notice; suddenly there is an emergency and you realize you're marginally incapacitated and really have to work at it to solve the situation.

Now hyperoxic conditions that lead to a CNS O2 hit I can tell you my onset symptoms are always the same, my vision will start to narrow and wash out. At that point I switch to air for 5 minutes.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I liked his videos, especially because they were free. I say this since the "get it all kit" from Kings is over $500.
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Yes, his stuff is top notch! I believe Jason was the 2008 AOPA Collegiate CFI of the Year or something like that.

While I'm here I'll mention another website for pilots:
www.askcaptainscott.com This guy is a 747 cargo pilot and has some good, down to Earth videos that are fun to watch. He encourages pilots or want-to-be-pilots to ask any aviation question and he'll answer it. He answers his email promptly, too. For what it is worth, I ran the hypoxia question past him and he said that he had never heard that claim, despite having gone through pressure training.
 
dagmba said:
Yes, his stuff is top notch! I believe Jason was the 2008 AOPA Collegiate CFI of the Year or something like that.

While I'm here I'll mention another website for pilots:
www.askcaptainscott.com This guy is a 747 cargo pilot and has some good, down to Earth videos that are fun to watch. He encourages pilots or want-to-be-pilots to ask any aviation question and he'll answer it. He answers his email promptly, too. For what it is worth, I ran the hypoxia question past him and he said that he had never heard that claim, despite having gone through pressure training.
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He even commented on my solo video. Captain Scott is cool.
 
dagmba said:
Where can I see your video?
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If you comment, be nice!

Here it is (I couldn't hook up the camcorder to a PC to upload - didn't have the right cables - so in my impatience I plugged the camcorder into my TV and recorded the recording with my cell phone - perhaps the worst video quality known to man - my apologies)

 
kimberlyanne546 said:
If you comment, be nice!

Here it is (I couldn't hook up the camcorder to a PC to upload - didn't have the right cables - so in my impatience I plugged the camcorder into my TV and recorded the recording with my cell phone - perhaps the worst video quality known to man - my apologies)

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Excellent video, Kim! Nice landing, too! Thanks for showing it to me!
 
I've heard the hypoxia sequence of symptoms in relation to aviation before, no idea if it is true but the 'knowledge' has been around a long time.
 
One time, Greg, it happened to me in a realtive sequence. The second time, no seuqence at all. I was monitored in the Altitude chamber and have the records.

YMMV. It attacks the very part of your brain that self monitors....
 
bbchien said:
One time, Greg, it happened to me in a realtive sequence. The second time, no seuqence at all. I was monitored in the Altitude chamber and have the records.

YMMV. It attacks the very part of your brain that self monitors....
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Exactly! That's why you don't notice on A/P until an engine packs it in and it takes 5 minutes for 2 pilots to swap a fuel valve.:rolleyes2: LOL, we did just fine, it just took for freaking ever to think. I remember seeing Bob struggle and reaching over to switch the AP master off, that helped.'Uggg, thanks';) It's nasty bad because you feel fine so long as you don't have to think or do.
 
As an ounce of prevention, you can buy a Pulse/Ox monitor on Amazon for less than $30. I keep one in my flight bag.
 
bbchien said:
One time, Greg, it happened to me in a realtive sequence. The second time, no seuqence at all. I was monitored in the Altitude chamber and have the records.

YMMV. It attacks the very part of your brain that self monitors....
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... posted by a Board Certified Nationally Recognized REAL Doctor! :)
 
John221us said:
As an ounce of prevention, you can buy a Pulse/Ox monitor on Amazon for less than $30. I keep one in my flight bag.
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There was one hanging around Bob's neck; problem is you need to think to use it...doh!. :popcorn:
 
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Yeah. You get too stupid to do anything about the 84 on the Pulse Oximeter.....or worse, you read your pulse of 94 as your oxygen saturation.
 
My CFI told the story of flying over Disney World one night. He realized that he was hypoxic when he heard himself singing "Its a Small World" as loud as he could.
 
steingar said:
It hits night vision hard too. I won't fly much over 5K feet at night.
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It's a trade off but I prefer to fly higher at night. I'd rather go 7-10k feet and be in gliding distance of a lit airport. I think the odds of me missing an airplane most likely lit up like an Xmas tree with strobes, not pointed out by ATC and then actually hitting that airplane is much lower than the (also low) possibility of an engine failure.
 
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steingar said:
It hits night vision hard too. I won't fly much over 5K feet at night.
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I'm thinkin' this is a tough one that folks don't understand and/or accept. I've started using O2 on any night flight and have found it makes a noticeable change. I learned my lesson after having to ask the tower to turn up the lights after a short night flight out and back. I literally could not see the runway lights even though I could pick up other lights around the field.

Remember that I generally start at 5,000 ASL and go up from there...
 
bbchien said:
Yeah. You get too stupid to do anything about the 84 on the Pulse Oximeter.....or worse, you read your pulse of 94 as your oxygen saturation.
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Yes, this is a valid point, but the jist of this thread seams to be about recognizing subjective symptoms, which would seem to be a bigger stretch. I would think, with a pulse/ox, you could set a conservative threshold to drop altitude or don oxygen.
 
dagmba said:
Hello, I am brand new to POA and this is my first post.

I recently came across the website for a nationally recognized CFII who has some excellent training materials and videos posted. One of them, however, flies against everything I have ever learned or taught about medicine. This CFII, in a video about hypoxia, states that, for a given individual, that individual's signs and symptoms of hypoxia will always be the same and will always occur in the same order. Differing persons may have differing signs/symptoms, but will be constant for that person. I was the director of a large community college-based paramedic training program for a number of years, and in all my training and education, I have never heard this before, and frankly, I don't buy it. I posted a question to the CFII to cite his sources for making this claim, but never saw a reply. Oxygen, in my considered opinion, like any other critical nourishment for the brain, when deprived, can present in numerous ways depending on many variables. There's no way one can absolutely say hypoxia will present the same way each time per individual.

Agree? I'm open to learning new things if I have missed something.

David
Click to expand...

You haven't missed anything. There is a lot that gets passed down as tribal knowledge in aviation that is not scientific in the least. Medical folklore is no exception.

Welcome to the board.
 
My first system is tiredness, then fingers get tingly. I always drink alot of caffeine before I fly, so I know if I start getting tired I'm getting a little but hypoxic. Then I can get out the pulse oxymeter and decide if I want to go lower or use the oxygen.
 
Another thing to be aware of is that different people have different altitudes where they become affected. I put on oxygen equipment during the day at or before 8,000 ft. I haven't made the leap of using it always at night, but now I'm considering it. I've been in the situation where I cannot see the airport lights right next to me.
 
DavidWhite said:
My first system is tiredness, then fingers get tingly. I always drink alot of caffeine before I fly, so I know if I start getting tired I'm getting a little but hypoxic. Then I can get out the pulse oxymeter and decide if I want to go lower or use the oxygen.
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Any time you're over 10k (Density Altitude counts in hypoxia as well so just because the altimeter say's you're at 10,000' doesn't mean you aren't breathing at 13,000) you might want to start checking your pulse ox on a regular basis. Don't count on any onset symptoms to alert you.
 
steingar said:
It hits night vision hard too. I won't fly much over 5K feet at night.
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It's darker at night in Denver. I knew it! ;)

(For those not acclimatized... )

I hate to say it, Clark... But I think your need for O2 at night may have more to do with reduced night vision with age. We all get that. (Me too if it makes you feel any better.)

The 20-something's -- what few we have left in aviation -- still see fine up here above 5000' MSL at night if they live up here by day and don't have other oxygen transport or Mark 1 eyeball problems.

Sucks getting old. ;)

Oh well. Either way, O2 at night isn't a bad thing. (Unless you're on fire.)

If anyone comes to Denver and is afraid of the dark because their eyeballs aren't working well above 5000', I will give one free hug. Haha.

(AggieMike toughed it out. He even drank beer at dinner. He didn't look scared of the Denver dark at all! ;) ;) ;) )

Speaking of dark nights... Vendor e-mailed and said the Whelen LED lights we ordered are on backorder and Whelen says it'll be a month. Darn it. :(
 
If you're interested in hypoxia, I read a book several years ago, They Called it Pilot Error. The author discussed a number of accidents all determined to be pilot error, but he suggested that hypoxia was very likely a contributing factor to whatever decisions went into the accident chain, as well as suggesting that hypoxia can affect a person at much lower altitudes than we're taught.
 
How much does it cost to rent (and own) oxygen? Since I fly roughly once a month, it is not something I've looked into.
 
FlySince9 said:
And, in a c150 it could take you the better of an hour to get to 12,000' anyway...
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Yes, and all the while using full power and only going 60 knots (ground speed). No thanks! I think it took 20 - 30 mins from takeoff time (max gross) to get to my XC altitude of 5500. I desperately wanted it to end so I could see out of the window again due to the fact I was coming up on very busy airspace. I was happy when I could be straight and level again. Had to due standard rate climbing turns on the way back to get above terrain / weather since I could not climb fast enough. Nice "tool" to have in my toolbox but circling wastes hobbs time.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
How much does it cost to rent (and own) oxygen? Since I fly roughly once a month, it is not something I've looked into.
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I got a big bottle that's apparently good for 22 hours at 16k feet. Only reason I did was because if I ever go through the mountains again I'm going to have oxygen with me. It also comes in handy when you want to get up high enough to catch a nice tailwind going west to east.
 
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