http://www.aeroprice.com/aerolibrary/aircraftbillofsale.htm said:
He has his name filled in as purchaser. The one we gave to the insurance company was left blank in that field.
That is what we were thinking. But then he said he has a letter from the FAA telling him to have us do that. I'll be curious to see what the letter really says.
That sounds good Spike. I would like for him to be able to fix this mess and fly the airplane, without our getting into trouble. Thanks.
Dave, he's just down the road from you at KFWS.
I kept getting those little cards from the FAA about the airplane for years (this all happened in 1998) and finally marked it as destroyed. Oops. I figured that whoever bought it from the salvage yard hadn't bothered to register it and wasn't flying it, and I was tired of being listed as the owner. Maybe that wasn't the right thing to do, but I didn't know where the airplane was anymore, and didn't want to be listed as the owner forever.
This is an example of why it is also in the seller's interest (as well as the buyer's) to ensure that the Bill of Sale is fully completed and mailed to the FAA upon competion of the sales transaction. For many legal reasons, including liability issues, you do not want to stay on the FAA rolls as the aircraft's legal owner after you sell it. The only way you can be sure of that is to see the completed Bill of Sale sealed in an envelope addressed to the FAA and watch that envelope be dropped in a mailbox.
Good point Bill (and Ron). I'll call AOPA tomorrow. Might as well use that legal plan that I keep paying for every year.
That approach appears to me to be fraught with legal risk -- while it would be nice at this point to be able to just "let it go away," I don't think that's legally possible any more. She'd be signing over an airplane she reported as destroyed to the FAA but which the insurance company (or anyone else with that original bill of sale -- remember that the purchaser's name was blank, but I suspect the date on it was the date Diana sent it to the insurance company) can prove she no longer legally owns, and did not own when she reported it destroyed. Therefore, at this point, with the facts teased out so far, I'll stick hard with my "call a lawyer before doing anything else" advice.
Ah, yes -- searching by serial number rather than N-number! Given her "destroyed" report, the transfer of the N-number to another airplane, and the apparent failure of the insurer to send in the original Bill of Sale, I'll bet it's off the rolls. Any takers?
I bet it is, too. But sometimes they're on the database as deregistered with a reason given. I was just curious.
...and where to go from there is to the person who thinks they are the owner. Find out who has possession of the data tag. If they paid money for it, and you are signing the bill of sale to someone else, you are creating a lawsuit that you don't need any part of. Once you know the person who paid for the plane/thinks he owns it is the same as the person to whom you are signing the bill of sale over to, then decide if Tom's method is good for you. And I am not a lawyer, so Tom's statement above: "legal advice is advised" still carries the day.
Wrong. Remember that Tom and Diana received a check from the insurance company in exchange for that original bill of sale, and no doubt also signed a release against further claims in exchange for that check. Should they now sign a second bill of sale transferring ownership of that plane to another party, there could be both civil and criminal consequences -- you can't legally sell the same item to two different people.
They have not been the legal owners since they signed the original bill of sale and gave it to the insurance company in exchange for a check settling their insurance claim. Whether the insurance company registered that Bill of Sale with the FAA or not, that Bill of Sale is the effective title to the aircraft any time the insurance company chooses to file it with the FAA. If Tom and Diana sign over a second bill of sale to a third party, they will almost certainly be breaking the law.
Based on some of the practices Tom described, and the story as related, I don't think the insurer will have any interest at all in resolving the new owner's problems. It is likely that for liability reasons, the insurer wanted the aircraft broken up for parts/scrap, not returned to service. This would explain their failure to record their bill of sale or to give the new owner a bill of sale from them to him. It's also possible they retained the data plate (just to make sure it doesn't go back in circulation and create liability for them), and the reason the new owner of the hulk needs a bill of sale from Tom and Diana is to get a new data plate authorized. In all of this, the insurer is likely to refuse to cooperate, and that explains why the new owner is bypassing the insurer and going directly to Tom and Diana.
Amen. And if there's any lesson to be learned, it's that (assuming honesty on the parts of all parties involved) it is in the interests of both the buyer and the seller to ensure that the bill of sale goes in the mail to the FAA the day the transaction is completed.
That was on the back of the registration certificate -- fill it out, mail it in. However, at this point, the real issue is between the insurer (to whom Tom and Diana sold the plane) and the new buyer. Any involvement by Tom and Diana now is going to step on the insurer's toes -- not cool.
Concur.
If this serial number is the one Tom and Diana had, then it's not a "totally different aircraft" -- it's the carcass of the plane they reported destroyed and the FAA struck from its records. Notice there's no airworthiness certificate -- probably cancelled/returned to the FAA by the insurance company.
'Zactly -- the new owner of the carcass is trying to pull a Frankenstein on it -- bring it back from the dead, which is most likely what the insurance company did not want done. I don't know what all the rules are on this, but I know for sure it's not something in which I would want to be involved.
There's a longer chain of ownership changes here than just Diana/Tom->Insurer->New Owner -- there are two other parties (salvage company and the party to whom the salvage company sold it, who then sold it to the current owner) between the insurance company and the current owner of the carcass. Trying to short-circuit that many transactions seems even scarier than what we've been talking about, since there are now two more players who may start crying "foul."
I don't think Tom Downey will mind me "outing" him (and if he does, he'd better get the FAA to hide the ownership of NC19143). Tom's a veteran Navy and civilian aircraft mechanic based up in the San Juan Islands of Western Washington, probably best know around aerocyberspace for his loving restoration of a 1937 Fairchild 24G, registration number NC19143.
Thanks Adam (and everyone else) for your suggestions. I'll contact the insurance company. I had asked the gentleman from Texas to mail me a copy of the letter he said he received from the FAA. He said the FAA suggested to him that he get us to sign a new BOS....I'd like to see that letter. I contacted AOPA yesterday and they gave me the names of a few lawyers nearby who are on the legal plan. I just hate to have to mess with this. Doing nothing at all is always an option, but I can't help but think what if it were me trying to fix a mess like this with an airplane that I bought and hoped to fly.
Yeah, Ron, it would be "not cool" to use a form the FAA provides for the exact purpose the FAA provides it.
How would you feel if someone who previously owned your plane filled out that FAA form and reported it as "destroyed" after they sold it to you? I'll stick with my advice to them not to do that unless/until someone with a license to practice law recommends to them otherwise.