sight picture and level flight

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muleywannabe

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Cherokee235
I flew with my CFI for just over 3 hours Saturday. We did takeoffs, landings, rectangular pattern, s-turns, WCA and turns around a point.

I had a hard time understanding the sight picture and the sight of level flight. I think towards the end of the lesson, I finally felt like I understood it some. My CFI is very understanding and explains things very well. I just felt like I was always wanting to climb upward, even when I thought in my mind it was level flight. Level flight to me feels like the nose of the plane is more forward...Just different to me, I guess. I am sure we have all had this problem. He did however, make comment on how well I did WCA, rectangular and S-turns, I had this pegged but the turns around a point were not so good....

I would love some suggestions and thoughts from all of you.

thanks
 
-Adjust the seat to your preference. (the same way each flight)
-Set the aircraft up for cruise flight with cruise power. (0 on the vertical speed indicator, if no errors are present)
-Take a snapshot of how everything looks in reference to the cowling and other physical parts of the aircraft.
-This will be your "sight picture" for level flight in your aircraft.

In a 172, I naturally set it up for a slight climb and have to correct it back to level. It looks weird to me.

From my seat when I fly a Piper Arrow, a climb pitch attitude or "sight picture" will put the horizon just below the instrument panel and keeping it at the same spot, for the most part, will maintain a steady-rate climb.

I hope this is somewhat helpful.
 
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Sorry, I did not mention what I was flying in. Cessna 172N. When you say take a snapshot, do you mean mentally or with your phone? The initial climb out I had the same problem, which is crucial for airspeed.
 
For my seat position/height in the 172 I fly, the sight picture for level flight has the horizon exactly 4 fingers above the cowl. When I started out, it did feel like I was descending (I think I expected the nose to be right on the horizon). Instead, I can hold my hand out in front of me and when the 4 fingers of my left hand fill the spacing between the nose and the horizon... I know I'm in level flight. (After enough times of doing this, you'll just just to figure out what it looks like and don't need to hold your hand out in front of you to check anymore.)
 
stupid question here but can you actually see the cowling from the seat? I am 6'0 tall and I can barely see the top of the cowling if I was sitting straight up perfectly. Can the seat be raised up at all?
 
muleywannabe said:
stupid question here but can you actually see the cowling from the seat? I am 6'0 tall and I can barely see the top of the cowling if I was sitting straight up perfectly. Can the seat be raised up at all?
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In a 172, you should be able to see the cowling. Seat height adjustment depends on the year I think. I've been in some 172s where you can adjust the seat up/down and some where you got whatever the factory gave you.
 
muleywannabe said:
stupid question here but can you actually see the cowling from the seat? I am 6'0 tall and I can barely see the top of the cowling if I was sitting straight up perfectly. Can the seat be raised up at all?
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Many hard ridden trainers will have broken seat adjusters. But normally you can raise and lower the seat. The 'snapshot' is a mental image. Trimmed at different speeds the horizon will be in a different location for each. My CFI told me the same thing - at this speed, the sight picture looks like this, remember it.
 
All aircraft are a little different with the sight picture for level flight. Have the instructor set up level flight to be sure. Then pick the spot easiest for you.
 
frfly172 said:
All aircraft are a little different with the sight picture for level flight. Have the instructor set up level flight to be sure. Then pick the spot easiest for you.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this…

Sight picture for level flight is a function of airspeed. It will be obviously more nose down at full rental power, especially coming off a Vno descent, than it will be on downwind (in an N model, at 80 so you can pop flaps down at any time). This is much more pronounced on a faster airplane, but it's a factor even on a 172N.

If you want to memorize level flight by sight, you have at least two, and probably three, speeds to memorize. An alternative is to fly the numbers and trim carefully. Then, you can feel even slight changes in climb rate as you pass through non uniformly heated air or around terrain in calm conditions.
 
Doesn't the CFI have you look out at the wings and reference the horizon? It isn't very hard. How many hours do you have?
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Doesn't the CFI have you look out at the wings and reference the horizon? It isn't very hard. How many hours do you have?
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Yes he does, however, I only have 5 hours currently. So this is very new. As he stated, I have what most students have...the reaction to always climb rather then descend and be level.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this…

Sight picture for level flight is a function of airspeed. It will be obviously more nose down at full rental power, especially coming off a Vno descent, than it will be on downwind (in an N model, at 80 so you can pop flaps down at any time). This is much more pronounced on a faster airplane, but it's a factor even on a 172N.

If you want to memorize level flight by sight, you have at least two, and probably three, speeds to memorize. An alternative is to fly the numbers and trim carefully. Then, you can feel even slight changes in climb rate as you pass through non uniformly heated air or around terrain in calm conditions.
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You're right, but seeing that he was only a few hours in, I wanted to keep it simple for him.

Hopefully he should pick up on that later on down the road (but not too much later).
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
You're right, but seeing that he was only a few hours in, I wanted to keep it simple for him.

Hopefully he should pick up on that later on down the road (but not too much later).
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The airspeed actually makes sense, my CFI pounds into my head just before takeoff 55, 75, 85. I guess it just takes some time to get it figured out, I find myself very coordinated and common sense smart...somewhat book smart too. so surely I can figure this out?
 
muleywannabe, you've gotten both here and from your CFI, some good suggestions. Here's somehting to think about...

You know how you can cover the speedometer in a car, hop on the highway and drive at just about the speed limit (assuming you want to ;) )? That works because through years of driving, you have developed a "sight picture" of the visual cues for what 65 MPH "looks like." That's what you are trying to develop here.

It's different from driving since it's really new and movement is in more dimensions. One thing you can do with your CFI is ask him to let you break it into parts. Just work on straight and level flight for a while and see if you can maintain altitude with the altimeter covered (it's easier than in sounds; I do it with first-lesson Discovery Flight clients and you'd probably be surprised at the results). Then moves to climbs, descents, turns and combinations of them. He might even cover over some instruments.

Funny the question coming up today. Yesterday I flew with a friend in his Husky. I'd never been in one before. I couldn't see the instrument panel through him and, when he gave me the controls for 15-20 minutes, I maintained the sight picture I saw when he was flying level. Even with a few turns, he told me I maintained altitude within 50'. That's not a testament to my flying skill (far from it); it simply shows that getting used to using sight pictures works!
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this…

Sight picture for level flight is a function of airspeed.
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It's called KISS for a brand new student.

Besides, I often cover the ASI when working with a student to develop a sight picture. Especially for landings. I don't even solo a student unless he or she can do no-ASI landings.
 
Every plane is different.

Transitioning Cessna pilots to either my Citabrias or my Grummans would inevitably have them climbing when they though they were level. Why? Because both planes had very low panels compared to a Cessna and they would just subconsciously put the top of the panel where it looked "right". And climb until it was pointed out. And they would usually remark that level flight felt like they were "flying downhill".

If your instructor permits it, take along something like pinstriping tape, and mark where the horizon crosses the side of the windshield at normal cruise. Maybe do the same for a couple of lower speeds.

Regardless, it will become a natural view over time - but one you'll have to modify as you fly different planes going forward.
 
I wouldn't stress over it too much, a few more hours and you will be doing it without even thinking about it. Like most things in training, you will be doing it on your own and you will be like, Ohh, I'm doing it.
 
TommyG said:
Like most things in training, you will be doing it on your own and you will be like, Ohh, I'm doing it.
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That is just about how I remember "finally figuring out" everything during my training. Suddenly you realize you are doing it.
 
If you are 6' tall you should be able to over the cowling easily in a 172. See if you can raise the seat. If not, borrow some cushions and get it to where sitting on the ramp you can comfortably see over the cowling and level all the way to the end of taxiway. Then just alwa.ys make sure your seat is adjusted the same way... Like the other guy said.
It will be important for landing practice when the time comes that your position is stable.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's called KISS for a brand new student.

Besides, I often cover the ASI when working with a student to develop a sight picture. Especially for landings. I don't even solo a student unless he or she can do no-ASI landings.
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KISS is all well and good, but when he's having trouble interpreting that simplification, it needs to be reevaluated.

I question whether that simplification really does simplify. There isn't "one" level flight attitude. If he tried to do this while going to or from the practice area -- probably at best forward speed like we all do -- that's the source of the confusion. Especially if he then compares it to the attitude used in the GRMs and all the other stuff done at the practice area.
 
My CFI mainly wanted me to memorize what a typical pattern speed would look like. I think that was to get me to keep my eyes outside when in the pattern, and recognize earlier if I was getting slow because it didn't look right..
 
muleywannabe said:
Yes he does, however, I only have 5 hours currently. So this is very new. As he stated, I have what most students have...the reaction to always climb rather then descend and be level.
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Don't worry about it . It will eventually become a sub-conscious reaction that your body will see and feel naturally . With only 5 hours you're still fighting yourself......have fun and don't worry.
 
TommyG said:
I wouldn't stress over it too much, a few more hours and you will be doing it without even thinking about it. Like most things in training, you will be doing it on your own and you will be like, Ohh, I'm doing it.
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yup.

but, here's how I explained it to a golfing buddy I recently took on a flight and let him take the controls for a few.

not sure if you're a golfer, but you know those sticks they use to line you up?
golf-alignment.jpg


so imagine one of those sticks is on the horizon, and one is parallel to the horizon on the nose of the airplane. get straight and level, imagine those sticks in those locations, then note the distance between the two from YOUR sight line....4 inches or so? depends on a lot of things, but note that distance and keep it the same. straight and level.

hope that helps.
 
muleywannabe said:
Yes he does, however, I only have 5 hours currently. So this is very new. As he stated, I have what most students have...the reaction to always climb rather then descend and be level.
Click to expand...

Very normal for your number of hours. The site picture is what you see out of the wind screen. Look at the VSI and see if you are climbing or descending. Watch the site picture, airspeed, altimeter, and VSI. SCAN the instruments, become one with the plane. Relax, it will come to you soon enough.
 
MAKG1 said:
KISS is all well and good, but when he's having trouble interpreting that simplification, it needs to be reevaluated.

I question whether that simplification really does simplify. There isn't "one" level flight attitude. If he tried to do this while going to or from the practice area -- probably at best forward speed like we all do -- that's the source of the confusion. Especially if he then compares it to the attitude used in the GRMs and all the other stuff done at the practice area.
Click to expand...
Instead of supposing and guessing and questioning, maybe try it?

I use the cover the instruments method for ground reference maneuvers all the time. Obviously a different level attitude than at cruise, yet (1) I have not seen a student have trouble with it, even the very first time and (2) it has cured chasing altitude and airspeed every time.

Not quite a scientific survey, but a bit better that your speculations on all the reasons it just can't work.
 
I'm still a student as well but try letting go of the yoke. If its trimmed right it will fly hands off all by itself. Sit back and relax and just look out the wind shield. Its a lot easier to actually see that picture when your not fighting the controls. My instructor made me do that just so i could learn to see what it is suposed to look like.
 
BTW, and excuse the continuing motor vehicle analogy, but despite talk (including my own) about covering instruments, that's not the goal of developing the sight picture.

The goal for a VFR pilot is to be able to look outside almost all the time (just like in a car or motorcycle) and use the instruments to verify what your eyes are telling you, with a glance no more lengthy than you would use to glance at the speedometer to confirm your speed down a road.
 
Just give it time, You'll see it soon. Something that helped me was covering the instruments and completely flying by outside references. After I got down what horizon was supposded to look like in a bank, straight and level, climb, and descent, I was pretty much able to nail my altitude +/- 100 and bank +/- 5 degrees feet without even looking at the instruments
 
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