Show of hands, please

bobmrg

bobmrg

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Bob Gardner
How many of you own, have access to, or even refer to, the Risk Management Handbook? Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Bob Gardner
 
No, no, no and no.
 
bobmrg said:
How many of you own, have access to, or even refer to, the Risk Management Handbook? Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Could you be more specific as to the publisher?
 
bobmrg said:
How many of you own, have access to, or even refer to, the Risk Management Handbook? Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

"No" to all.
 
Risk management? Is that when I tell Jim-Bo "Hold my beer and watch this?"

No to all. But I would expect a private pilot to be expected to use some risk management, as taught by his instructor.
 
Aha! That's where those questions came from... :rofl: :mad2:
 
Yes, yes and yes. As to #4, I dunno, but doesn't seem unreasonable.
 
I discovered the RM book last week while I was reading over the Instrument PTS. Got a copy, haven't gone over it in detail. But the Risk Matrix is very reminiscent to the Civil Air Patrol material, the NASA material, the USAF material, the ....[fill in the blank]
 
No,,


Course they should understand Risk Management as a practice..
 
As in most industry we have several where I work, some are more general, and some provide more specific guidance to constructing safety cases and risk registers. Are you referring to a specific document ?
 
bobmrg said:
How many of you own, have access to, or even refer to, the Risk Management Handbook? Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

I copied it to my iPad in April of last year, shortly before a quick April road trip to a weekend stay at a B&B on the Oregon coast. Made for some odd evening reading (given the locale and intent of the trip) in the lounge overlooking the ocean. I didn't finish it that weekend.

The handbook seemed to take too long to get to its points, such as they were. In an odd sense the discussion of the "accident prone pilot" seemed to highlight the likely futility of the effort: only those who already don't need the advice provided are ever likely to wade through such a tedious tome. Those who need it most are not going to read it except on pain of death. They probably still wouldn't apply any lessons it tries to offer.

I would not expect private pilot questions to be based on its contents, but wouldn't be surprised if they have started doing that.

(I only remember it being April of last year because we met a couple who stayed one night at the B&B who were traveling down the whole west coast. They were from England and taking advantage of days off for the royal wedding, only to find it being "marketed" here in the U.S.)
 
Never heard of it.

That said, after over 13 years of USN ORM/Risk Management Training, I can't imagine how much value there is in an entire text book devoted to the subject.
 
Humph... After more than 50 years of active flying, risk management for me means planning the legs around my bladder. No accidents so far though :D

Let me agree with the above author, that those who are psychologically in dire need of such a program are those who will resist such with every fiber of their being.
 
bobmrg said:
How many of you own, have access to, or even refer to, the Risk Management Handbook? Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

No, Yes, Sort of.....have the PDF. Became aware of it via CFI FIRC a couple of years ago. Perused enough to get a sense of it but doubt many private students have seen it.
 
bobmrg said:
How many of you own, have access to, or even refer to, the Risk Management Handbook? Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

No, yes, no, no.

I have read through the book, but I don't think it's an appropriate way for a pilot to fly. The approach should be to minimize or eliminate ALL risk, not just to pay attention to risks that are likely to happen or have a catastrophic outcome.

One of the examples given in the book is a nick in a propellor blade, which they use to demostrate an unlikely risk. Yet, their example is predicated on ignorance, not risk assessment. Anyone who has the knowledge that a nicked blade can be the start of a cracked propeller knows that you just should not fly until you've resolved the state of that propellor. There is no "managing" risk, there is only a decision whether or not to ignore it.

IMO, risk "management" decisions are a poor choice in lieu of risk avoidance and risk elimination decisions.
 
bflynn said:
No, yes, no, no.

I have read through the book, but I don't think it's an appropriate way for a pilot to fly. The approach should be to minimize or eliminate ALL risk, not just to pay attention to risks that are likely to happen or have a catastrophic outcome.

One of the examples given in the book is a nick in a propellor blade, which they use to demostrate an unlikely risk. Yet, their example is predicated on ignorance, not risk assessment. Anyone who has the knowledge that a nicked blade can be the start of a cracked propeller knows that you just should not fly until you've resolved the state of that propellor. There is no "managing" risk, there is only a decision whether or not to ignore it.

IMO, risk "management" decisions are a poor choice in lieu of risk avoidance and risk elimination decisions.
Click to expand...
I have not read the book in question, but it sounds like you are missing the point of the general concept of Risk Management.

The point is that there are high risk evolutions that exist. Flying has inherent risk associated with it as do many of the evolutions that we conduct in the military. You simply cannot eliminate every risk that might exist. Only way you can do that is to NOT fly. There are some risks along the way that you can eliminate, but if you commit to flight, there will always be some risk that cannot be eliminated. Risk Management overall is an approach that seeks to identify the potential risks that you may face in a given mission and mitigate those risks to ensure the safest possible outcome.
 
bobmrg said:
How many of you own, have access to, or even refer to, the Risk Management Handbook? Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

No. Apparently we all have access, I just found it on line thanks to a link in this thread. No. There is no telling where the FAA comes up with it's stuff.


Now that I know it exists, I will sit down and read it. But at first glance it looks an awful lot like 6 Sigma (tm), B.L.I., etc., etc., etc. I may not make it to the end.
 
One part common sense and one part drawing bullseyes around arrows already landed is how those books get written.

The fact we need 'em scares me...sorta like every piece of instructional material handed out by HR departments.
 
A bunch of Blithar blather. Oh crap just for writing that I put myself in half a dozen dangerous pilot categories.:lol: + One more category of death for the smiley.:rolleyes2::lol: Oh well no saving me, you good folks go read and heed.:nono::nonod::wink2:
 
bobmrg said:
How many of you own, have access to, or even refer to, the Risk Management Handbook? Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
No, yes (I've seen it in the past and know where to find it), no, no (but it would probably be a good thing. There's not much emphasis put on risk management in PPL training).
 
Questions from this document were in my latest computer-based training and exams. I believe risk management has become a required part of the Part 135 curriculum along with CRM and ADM. Luckily they give you a set of practice questions before the real exam. :redface:
 
Hand up. Very wordy.
We have to teach the same stuff to the pilots, except in common ENGLISH.
 
Nope, never heard of it till now. I just cover the PAVE thing with PP people.
 
This publication have been around since 2009. As a CFI, it is required reading for my students. They don't get a sign off unless they can intelligently discuss the topics in this handbook in an oral exam.
 
CFI.William said:
This publication have been around since 2009. As a CFI, it is required reading for my students. They don't get a sign off unless they can intelligently discuss the topics in this handbook in an oral exam.
Click to expand...


First post....:yes: Welcome to POA..

:thumbsup:
 
#1 - No, #2 - yes (via internet), #3 - no. #4 - doesn't seem outrageous.
 
I'll bet there are a lot more pilots who have flown accident free into a ripe old age that haven't read said document than have.
 
How many of you own,

Yes, downloaded it in October

have access to,

Yes, downloaded it in October

or even refer to,

Yes, but only because it was the source for the answer to some of the most useless test questions on the AGI test that I was studying for.

the Risk Management Handbook?


Would you expect private pilot questions to be based on knowledge of its contents?

Yes, because I have noticed that the FAA ignores its own FOI when it makes tests. They like to ask questions that prove that you can get your answers from their approved material, rather than ask questions that prove that you understand the concepts.

There are way too many questions that just prove that you can regurgitate the correct vocabulary, and not nearly enough that probe your understanding of the concepts.

I sincerely hope that most Instructors and DPEs are picking up the slack on this. Unfortunately I am painfully aware of an Instructor/DPE pair that don't, and they are churning our a bunch of new pilots that don't know $#!T, and think that is okay and normal.




Bob Gardner
 
The problem with all the faa publications that are available is that they can be really dry and it's really unlikely (nearly impossible) most students can read and discuss all the subjects in all of the publications competently.
 
Stevel said:
There are way too many questions that just prove that you can regurgitate the correct vocabulary, and not nearly enough that probe your understanding of the concepts.
Click to expand...
This was the case with the set of questions I had to answer too.
 
Random thoughts:

If you haven't seen Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs episode entitled "Safety Third", it's worth throwing into you brain to make you think harder about the old adage "Safety First".

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2009/11/safety-do-i-hear-1-2-3/

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2009/03/safety-first-or-just-in-the-top-3/

It's refreshing to hear the truth, anyway.

As far as risk management schemes go, they seem to...

- Create a lot of paperwork. Sometimes at the expense of distracting people from the job at hand, since the paperwork is often done in a rush, during pre-flight. Said paper sits ignored and unused once the prop is turning in aviation, mostly.
- Sometimes bring an otherwise inattentive pilot (or anyone else) back to reality.
- Not work on careless individuals.

The best use of all of the systems out there is in personal contemplation of one's own attitude and practices towards safely doing something inherently unsafe.

Ben's comment that if CAP does something he does the opposite was funny, but a thinker will recognize that CAP does have a statistically significant lower rate of accidents flying more hours than most of the GA fleet. However, a thinker may also realize there's a lot of factors that apply and their safety culture may have far less to do with it than their proficiency... in other words, they fly more.

My favorite pet peeve lately are the threads where a zero timer shows up here and has a big pile of money and says, "What's the best airplane for the mission?" And we all analyze and stir the pot, thinking about the airplane, but not the person. We just leave that to, "You can learn to fly it, no problem!" We all have met a pilot or two in person that we would NOT believe will ever be proficient in a fast slippery retract, but it's almost impossible to know via text on a message board. But we recommend those airplanes to them without hesitation here.

We all rise to the level of our incompetence. My personal safety rule is to try to always remind myself no to bite off more than I can chew.
 
I have that book and I love it. I reread to it from time to time.
I have given copies as gifts to others as soon as they've passed their checkrides. I think there should be PPL test questions on risk management. I also think it should be discussed during the Flight Reviews (every 2 years).
 
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