Should I use a broker?

jmpoplin

jmpoplin

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NCFlyer
Hello,

I am entering the market for a PA32R and was curious if anyone had used a broker before? Does anyone have stories (good or bad) for Bartlet Aviation, Aircraft Sales Inc, etc? I don't mind doing research, but an fairly new and have very limited time to check on perspective planes myself.

Do "super soundproofing", door seals, or a 3-blade prop make any difference to passenger comfort? Are there any other passenger comfort items I should be considering (A/C for the south)?

Do I buy a plane that's been redone (like the one above) or do I get a worn-out one and find someone to update engine, avionics, paint and/or interior? If the latter, what's a reasonable budget for a paint job and for an interior on a PA32?

Silly question but to Saratoga seats tilt or recline? I understand with club seating the backwards facing and pilot seat won't but what about if they are laid flat and the rear seats?

Jeff
 
The guy who's selling the airplane can't represent the interest of the buyer. Not to suggest that they are not honorable people, but they simply can't be objective if they're trying to be on both sides of the trade. A buyer's representative should be paid by you and have no affiliation or association with the seller.

As a buyer's rep, I can give you a jillion examples of the benefits from using somebody who knows what they're doing when you buy an airplane. OTOH, I can't absolutely guarantee that you won't find a better deal buying one from a guy in the next hangar row; or whether you'll get screwed like a tied goat.

jmpoplin said:
Hello,

I am entering the market for a PA32R and was curious if anyone had used a broker before? Does anyone have stories (good or bad) for Bartlet Aviation, Aircraft Sales Inc, etc? I don't mind doing research, but an fairly new and have very limited time to check on perspective planes myself.

Do "super soundproofing", door seals, or a 3-blade prop make any difference to passenger comfort? Are there any other passenger comfort items I should be considering (A/C for the south)?

Do I buy a plane that's been redone (like the one above) or do I get a worn-out one and find someone to update engine, avionics, paint and/or interior? If the latter, what's a reasonable budget for a paint job and for an interior on a PA32?

Silly question but to Saratoga seats tilt or recline? I understand with club seating the backwards facing and pilot seat won't but what about if they are laid flat and the rear seats?

Jeff
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wabower said:
The guy who's selling the airplane can't represent the interest of the buyer. Not to suggest that they are not honorable people, but they simply can't be objective if they're trying to be on both sides of the trade. A buyer's representative should be paid by you and have no affiliation or association with the seller.

As a buyer's rep, I can give you a jillion examples of the benefits from using somebody who knows what they're doing when you buy an airplane. OTOH, I can't absolutely guarantee that you won't find a better deal buying one from a guy in the next hangar row; or whether you'll get screwed like a tied goat.
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Wayne,
Your honesty is refreshing.

Jeff,

To paraphrase Wayne, if you need someone to do the leg work of finding potential airplanes it's a good idea to pay an experienced person to do the looking for you. But you will make the final decision what to buy.

Joe
 
I'd be cautious of using a broker being paid by the seller. I've sold all
my planes myself. I've bought planes from two different dealers and
had a good experience with both. The planes were exactly as represented and
in good condition. I never had any problems with either. Those dealers were Southern Aircraft Sales and Indy Aero. A good dealer is very concerned about their reputation.

I've also bought directly from the previous owners. You have to be a little
more careful doing that and research the plane well.

RT
 
Would you use a broker to buy a car for you? I can see using one to sell an airplane if you are too busy to show it and deal with tire kickers. But as a buyer the only people I recommend being involved is YOUR A&P-IA for the pre-buy inspection and a Title/Escrow company to make sure all liens are released and to handle the money transaction.
 
I thought about using a buyer's broker when I was searching. But ended up not using one mainly because I found so many helpful people at my airport and on line that were willing to help me locate and evaluate aircraft for sale. I did look at planes listed by brokers. There were two brokers that stood out.

RogerT said:
Those dealers were Southern Aircraft Sales and Indy Aero.
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As Roger noted Indy Aero was one. The other was Shamrock in Wisconsin.

I looked at several aircraft that were listed by these guys and got close to buying a couple of time. Each was very open and truthful about the aircraft, its condition, location, N-number/accident history, etc.

I looked at aircraft at other brokers but walked. Courtesy Aircraft had a plane that I was very interested in. I even had my check book in hand, but the sales person I made an appointment with to review the logs, test fly, and evaluate the plane with decided that he did not need to show up for the appointment. One of his colleagues was willing to let me review the logs and look at the plane. But would not even allow me to run up the engine.

Barron Thomas was another one I walked away from. As I have written before I was never comfortable with their no N-number ads lack of true aircraft location information, etc. It seemed as if they were hiding something with the planes. I looked, but never felt that they would be a good fit from what I wanted in a seller.

In the end I found my plane by accident. I was browsing plane porn sites and ran into an ad on the AOPA classifieds. It was a direct sale form the owner. I really liked what I saw and was able to meet him two days later with a check in hand. The airplane checked out, I gave him the deposit while we finished up the deal.
 
If the buyers broker is an expert on the make and model of the airplane you are considering, they can aid you greatly. They don't necessarily need to be an IA, but it is an advantage. I have provided buyer brokerage for my customers who want to buy a Bonanza and have saved my customers significant money and potential grief, but I am an expert on the aircraft and owned my own for the last 31 years. IMHO, my services are well worth the fees I charge for locating a Bonanza, but outside of my area of expertise, I wouldn't be worth the money. What you want is to take advantage of some one's knowledge (that you don't have) to help making an informed purchase decision. A seller's Broker represents the seller and themselves and it would not sense to use them for advice on a purchase decision.
 
IMO, knowledge of the particular type is never a bad thing, but only a small part of making a deal. Many other issues come into play, and it's difficult to predict in advance which ones will surface on any particular transaction.

Many light GA buyers who buy one airplane every 10 years think they can negotiate as well or better than someone that does it every day. Based on the considerable time I spend cleaning up their messes and listening to their "but I thought" hard-luck stories, I'm sure it's not true but also sure that nothing is going to change.

One of the primary tell-tale indicators of how well the buyers fared on their purchase negotiations is the "20% of purchase price" that is often mentioned as the typical first-year cost of maintenance and repairs. If the deal is done right, that number should be closer to 2% than 20%.
 
jmpoplin said:
I am entering the market for a PA32R and was curious if anyone had used a broker before?
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Nothing wrong with buying an airplane through a broker as long as you remember that the broker works for the seller, not you. OTOH, hiring a "buyer's agent" who has your interest at heart can be a good idea for someone new to the game. Just make sure you get and check references!

Do "super soundproofing", door seals, or a 3-blade prop make any difference to passenger comfort?
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Not physical comfort, but it does make the flight more pleasant. A 3-bladed prop also usually increases prop ground clearance, which can be a plus if operating on grass.

Are there any other passenger comfort items I should be considering (A/C for the south)?
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All I can say is A/C has been very, very nice to have in the client's plane when I've given training in the summer south of the Mason-Dixon line (and sometimes even north of it).

Do I buy a plane that's been redone (like the one above) or do I get a worn-out one and find someone to update engine, avionics, paint and/or interior?
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It's always cheaper to buy a plane with that stuff already done than to do it yourself. My experience suggests that an airplane with $40K of upgrades sells for only about $20K more than the same plane without the upgrades. OTOH, you'd better like what the previous owner liked in the way of color, materials, and radios or it may be a false economy in the long run for a plane you intend to keep for many years.

If the latter, what's a reasonable budget for a paint job and for an interior on a PA32?
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Probably around $20K for a first-rate job of paint and interior these days. Latest quotes I've heard for top-quality paint for my Tiger and others in its class (like a 180 Cherokee) are around $14K, and the PA32 is a bit larger. You can probably find P&I for less, but it won't be as nice a job as the best shops do for more money; how long you plan to keep the plane plays into that decision.
 
Not an owner and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
I have looked on and off for a few years. One thing I found helpful when I would get relatively serious about a particular model was to find the "owners" web board for that make, join that and start asking questions. What "gotcha's" that really only other owners of that make and model seem to know about. Things like that.

Hope you find just what you are looking for.
 
To paraphrase Algore, "the inconvenient truth" about airplane deals is that $40k Cherokees can (and often do) require much more time than $40 mil G-whatevers. For example, during the initial interview with a prospective buyer, I try to determine his strategy for finding an airplane.

If he says "I think we should identify all the ones we like and then throw out a bunch of low-ball offers and see who takes the bait" I try to pay for lunch and get the hell away as quickly as possible. I've never seen that tactic work so far and not expecting next time to be the first.

Little airplane buyers are often buying their first airplane, and in many situations it represents one of their more significant disretionary purchases. The money is important to them, and understandably so, but emotion is often a big motivator. In many cases they are unsure what they want or "have to show it to their wife" and go through all the other machinations (don't like maroon interiors, why did they take out the curtains, how come there's no audio panel or avionics master switch, why is the glareshield cracked) that buyers must experience first-hand.

Then there's always the chance that the seller is some nitwit who thinks his $30k-tops POS is worth $50k "well, by God that's what it's worth to me and I figger it only takes one buyer at my price" who balks at the notion that some independent mechanic is going to look at his airplane, and then bristles when any squawks are listed. "Hell, we all know it's a 45-year old airplane, you shouldn't expect it to be perfect" suddenly becomes the mantra of the guy who two weeks ago was telling you that his airplane is the best of its kind in the country.

I empathasize with buyers who are working through this maze for the first time, and remember when I was in their shoes. I also understand that sellers get nit-picked and low-balled to death, and know they are frustrated by the whiny-assed tire-kickers who continue to show up at their airport. If nothing else, a purchaser rep should recognize these common behavioral issues (on both sides) and help de-personalize the transaction.

From a economic standpoint, I have no realistic expectations that a deal of that size can ever be feasible based on the estimated time to complete it. My goal for every transaction is to be able to justify my role by:

1. helping the buyer avoid a train-wreck from the purchase of the wrong airplane

2. saving him at least as much as he pays me (and hopefully substantially more) in the selection, negotiation and structuring of the purchase.

If those goals aren't achievable, there's no reason for him to write the check, and they are really tough on small deals.
 
As a buyer, I believe I paid about 10% broker's fee (maybe not me directly). The good news was they handled all the paperwork and escrow. Told me, the first time buyer, what the FAA and state paperwork was and what was needed. Since I was familiar with the plane, there wasn't a whole lot of tire kicking. I took it to a mechanic at another airport for the pre-buy inspection. With his list of squawks, we negotiated a fair price (I thought).
And yeah, this was one of those $50k warriors. The broker had a lot of phone and face time.
 
I think I did OK on buying mine - but, knowing what I know now, I wish I'd used a buyer's agent. I now know I could / would have been better off if I had.

Same ol' deal - I may buy 2 or 3 airplanes in my life; why not get someone who does it as a pro.
 
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