Should I Refuse to Pay My FBO?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
Some of you may recall my airplane rental woes...failed vacuum, bad rudder spring, on and on...

Well here's one from Saturday: I take off and the tower informs me the transponder doesn't work. I try cycling it on / off, altitude mode, squawk, etc. It just doesn't work.

Having a working transponder is a requirement in LA.

So, I cancel my trip, and return, never having left the pattern.

Eight hours later, I get an invoice from the FBO for the cancelled trip. I'm outraged.

Am I overreacting? Should I have to pay for a flight around the pattern when I had to cancel my cross country due to a defect that made the plane illegal to fly?
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Some of you may recall my airplane rental woes...failed vacuum, bad rudder spring, on and on...

Well here's one from Saturday: I take off and the tower informs me the transponder doesn't work. I try cycling it on / off, altitude mode, squawk, etc. It just doesn't work.

Having a working transponder is a requirement in LA.

So, I cancel my trip, and return, never having left the pattern.

Eight hours later, I get an invoice from the FBO for the cancelled trip. I'm outraged.

Am I overreacting? Should I have to pay for a flight around the pattern when I had to cancel my cross country due to a defect that made the plane illegal to fly?
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Did you address this with the FBO when you cancelled the flight? Or at least after you got the invoice?

If not, how were they to know?
If you did, then I don't think you should be charged.
Why don't you submit an invoice to them for a maintenance test flight?
 
I would hand a check over to the owner of the FBO, explaining why you will never walk through their door again.
 
Talk them first. I would not pay it. If a transponder is required where you are the plane was not airworthy.
 
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I'd talk to them before refusing. If they do the right thing then I'd probably keep renting. If they try to make you pay then I'd refuse and not go back.
 
I would suspect that since it was 8 hours after your flight canceled, it was likely a automated bill. I'd call the FBO and speak to a person before I got to worked up about it.
 
Yes, having things break is a part of life. If you decided to run a marathon and you hurt your toe on the curb and couldn't run, should you get your entry fee back from the marathon? Now it is true, some FBOs will cut you a break if you get to your run up and realize you have a failed mag but if you take off it's all fair game no matter how far you got. I've had a failed transponder before and honestly I just kept going. Once you're out of the class airspace that requires it, it doesn't matter. It depends on what you're doing as to how to handle coming back. If you just plan to stay in a practice area, most controllers wont make a huge deal out of it and make you report where you're at a lot. If you plan on stopping somewhere and then coming back, give them a courtesy call before you get there and let them know your ETA. It is true that they have the right to deny entry since it is an airspace requirement but I haven't heard of that happening. Now obviously this isn't going to work if you're IFR.

I would still agree with the other guys to talk to them first. It sounds like your bad experiences are just compiling which would make me mad too.
 
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Tristar said:
Yes, having things break is a part of life. If you decided to run a marathon and you hurt your toe on the curb and couldn't run, should you get your entry fee back from the marathon? Now it is true, some FBOs will cut you a break if you get to your run up and realize you have a failed mag but if you take off it's all fair game no matter how far you got. I've had a failed transponder before and honestly I just kept going. It depends on what you're doing as to how to handle coming back. If you just plan to stay in the local area, most controllers wont make a huge deal out of it and make you report where you're at a lot. If you plan on stopping somewhere and then coming back, give them a courtesy call before you get there and let them know your ETA. It is true that they have the right to deny entry but I haven't heard of that happening. Now obviously this isn't going to work if you're IFR.
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Poor analogy. The marathon was cancelled. You would expect your entry fees back. ;)
 
I think only the marathons that went through national parks got canceled.
 
Tristan, the comparison between aircraft rental and marathon is pretty poor one. That's more like saying you take off and get sick, in which case it's not the plane's fault. In this case you were given a broken plane.

Furthermore, flying without a transponder in the Lincoln area I'd expect to be way different than in LA...
 
Ted I was going more for the I need me to run a marathon but I broke and the airplane needs a transponder but it broke therefor should you still pay what you set out to do.

You are right that flying in Lincoln is a lot different than flying in LA.
 
This one is easy. The plane as rented needed to be 'fit for a particular use' is the general term. It had a xponder in it, the xponder was part of the package rented with the plane, and is a required item for safe operation. No working xponder, no payment due.

Suppose you rented a car at LAX, and they hand you the keys. You get in, start the car, and as you roll away the brakes fail. Providing you get stopped safely, you don't owe Hertz a dime.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Some of you may recall my airplane rental woes...failed vacuum, bad rudder spring, on and on...

Well here's one from Saturday: I take off and the tower informs me the transponder doesn't work. I try cycling it on / off, altitude mode, squawk, etc. It just doesn't work.

Having a working transponder is a requirement in LA.

So, I cancel my trip, and return, never having left the pattern.

Eight hours later, I get an invoice from the FBO for the cancelled trip. I'm outraged.

Am I overreacting? Should I have to pay for a flight around the pattern when I had to cancel my cross country due to a defect that made the plane illegal to fly?
Click to expand...

When you walked back in and handed them the keys after only being gone a short while, what did they say? What did you say?
 
Tristar said:
Yes, having things break is a part of life. If you decided to run a marathon and you hurt your toe on the curb and couldn't run, should you get your entry fee back from the marathon? Now it is true, some FBOs will cut you a break if you get to your run up and realize you have a failed mag but if you take off it's all fair game no matter how far you got. I've had a failed transponder before and honestly I just kept going. Once you're out of the class airspace that requires it, it doesn't matter. It depends on what you're doing as to how to handle coming back. If you just plan to stay in a practice area, most controllers wont make a huge deal out of it and make you report where you're at a lot. If you plan on stopping somewhere and then coming back, give them a courtesy call before you get there and let them know your ETA. It is true that they have the right to deny entry since it is an airspace requirement but I haven't heard of that happening. Now obviously this isn't going to work if you're IFR.

I would still agree with the other guys to talk to them first. It sounds like your bad experiences are just compiling which would make me mad too.
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I think a more realistic analogy is that the bridge washes out then the marathon organizers cancel the marathon due to not having a working path to run on. Would you expect your fees back then? I'd say yes.
 
Talk to the FBO, pay for the time logged only.
 
Tristar said:
Ted I was going more for the I need me to run a marathon but I broke and the airplane needs a transponder but it broke therefor should you still pay what you set out to do.
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What? That makes even less sense.
 
Alexb2000 said:
When you walked back in and handed them the keys after only being gone a short while, what did they say? What did you say?
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If you told the desk when you came back in after a short flight, I think it would be hard to make you pay for the .3 or so hours. Different story if you got in and felt sick after a few minutes, then it's not the FBO's fault. Change it a bit and a make it a bad mag, you found it on the run up, do you have to pay to taxi the plane? I think not. :dunno:
 
I am also in the camp of speak to the HMFIC and _calmly_ explain why you're not a satisfied customer. If customers don't speak up, the guys in charge won't know what part of the system is broke and work to fix it.

As far as the billing for the XC flight, what does the written cancellation policy say? Does it have anything covering mx issues?
 
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Gosh, I have to ask why are you talking to US about this instead of the FBO manager...HE can help you...or give us something to really rant about on Monday morning...:D:D
 
Kelvin said:
Gosh, I have to ask why are you talking to US about this instead of the FBO manager...HE can help you...or give us something to really rant about on Monday morning...:D:D
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We're better at stirring the pot. ;)
 
Charged for the time in flight or for the time that was booked? Big difference. Paying for the time in the pattern is understandable, paying for a daily minimum/time scheduled when the plane couldn't go is not.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Paying for the time in the pattern is understandable,
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I need to respectfully disagree. Either the xponder was inop from the start, and only discovered at takeoff(when switching from stby to active), or the xponder failed immediately at take off. In either case, the plane was not fit for a particular use as it began the flight. In fact, judging by his location, even if he had done one touch and go and got back in the air, it would be an illegal op. Just like I said with the rental car, the guy got the engine started and moved forward a few feet, but it was not safe to operate, so no pay.
 
I make it a point of reporting an unairworthy aircraft to a human in addition to the automated system, even if I have to call the emergency number to do so. Why? I don't want someone else renting the aircraft, and it may result in the problem being fixed faster. Most recently, that was due to a flat nosegear strut on a 172N (so, no start, no Hobbs, no charge). Previously, a Warrior had no drop on the right mag. Reported, no charge (despite a few tenths Hobbs). That Warrior had just had an excessive drop repaired (new mag), so it was particularly urgent.

I wouldn't expect a charge for this. If they do, lots of competition isn't so stupid.

FYI, you can fly without a transponder in any airspace with prior permission. I doubt it's worth it here, but it might be if you were flying to get it repaired.

Should you refuse to pay? Well, if you like fighting with collections and credit bureaus, maybe. But I'd suggest paying the $30 and leaving if that were to be required. Talk to them. Few people are that stupid, and automated billing is very common.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I'd talk to them before refusing. If they do the right thing then I'd probably keep renting. If they try to make you pay then I'd refuse and not go back.
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jtheune said:
I would suspect that since it was 8 hours after your flight canceled, it was likely a automated bill. I'd call the FBO and speak to a person before I got to worked up about it.
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What Ted and John said above, without a doubt.
 
Thanks for all the advice. This FBO has been fair in the past. I have never been charged for airplanes with issues. Since flying this plane was not legal, I'm guessing they will let me off the hook.

Time to buy my own plane!

Stay tuned...I'll post what they do.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Thanks for all the advice. This FBO has been fair in the past. I have never been charged for airplanes with issues. Since flying this plane was not legal, I'm guessing they will let me off the hook.

Time to buy my own plane!

Stay tuned...I'll post what they do.
Click to expand...

See Twin Navion thread. Bargain to be had, but it has to be right now!:D
 
I would talk to them (i.e. management) as it could have been an automated bill as someone mentioned. I would not automatically pay without trying to resolve it. If they insist on payment, put it on a credit card and tell them about your lack of future rental plans.

Had a similar situation with my flying club, panel lights on a plane didn't work for night flight. We cancelled and went in another plane, and I indicated the issue in the billing summary. I was not charged for the flight.
 
Was the transponder working on the flight before your's? If not, why wasn't there a squawk to the shop? If it died on your flight, did you submit a squawk when you landed and returned the keys?
 
jtheune said:
I would suspect that since it was 8 hours after your flight canceled, it was likely a automated bill. I'd call the FBO and speak to a person before I got to worked up about it.
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this seems the likely cause . . . .

Transponder is certainly required inside 30nm of SAN and LAX and then to traverse the myriad C and D airspaces . . . .

Always talk to someone - and when you do ask if this flurry of equiptment issues is a Murphy glitch or if it 'happens all the time.'

The wrong answer is 'happens all the time' because that is related to ongoing long-term maintenance . . .. it wuold give me pause because only stuff that breaks ever gets looked at so its completely reactive.
 
Plane and simple, no you should not pay for the rental. As others have said you asked to rent a plane that was airworthy for your purposes. The lack of a working transponder which you could not realize until you were in the air made the plane unairworthy for the purpose you rented it for. It was not your fault and it was their responsibility to provide you with a suitable rental. Instead of a transponder, change it to after you took off you lost oil pressure and had to land immediately as well. Should you pay for the rental then. I do not think so. In fact, I would suggest that you should get something back from the FBO for your inconvenience.

I would look at this to being analogous to you renting a car and as you start the car to pull it out of the rental place the engine seizes. If the rental place did not have another car to give you, not only would they not charge you, but they would probably find you a rental with another company, and add something to it to cover your inconvenience.
 
jtheune said:
I would suspect that since it was 8 hours after your flight canceled, it was likely a automated bill. I'd call the FBO and speak to a person before I got to worked up about it.
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+1

Talk to the manager and or owner first, probably a automated bill.

That said after all is said and done I wouldnt pay it
 
Tristar said:
Yes, having things break is a part of life. If you decided to run a marathon and you hurt your toe on the curb and couldn't run, should you get your entry fee back from the marathon? Now it is true, some FBOs will cut you a break if you get to your run up and realize you have a failed mag but if you take off it's all fair game no matter how far you got. I've had a failed transponder before and honestly I just kept going. Once you're out of the class airspace that requires it, it doesn't matter. It depends on what you're doing as to how to handle coming back. If you just plan to stay in a practice area, most controllers wont make a huge deal out of it and make you report where you're at a lot. If you plan on stopping somewhere and then coming back, give them a courtesy call before you get there and let them know your ETA. It is true that they have the right to deny entry since it is an airspace requirement but I haven't heard of that happening. Now obviously this isn't going to work if you're IFR.

I would still agree with the other guys to talk to them first. It sounds like your bad experiences are just compiling which would make me mad too.
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Fwiw there is absolutely no way I would charge someone for my time nor would they be charged for the airplane with the outfit I'm associated with.
 
timwinters said:
Do the terms "pig" and "poke" mean anything to you? :rofl: :goofy:
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Despite my emoticon, should someone want to buy a unique plane, this could be the one. I'm not in the market but for anyone who's ever sat in the Navion, it's rather impressive.

At $30k for two airplanes, four engines, four props, and a boat trailer, the deal is looking better all the time(but don't tell Tom I said it). :lol:
 
jesse said:
Fwiw there is absolutely no way I would charge someone for my time nor would they be charged for the airplane with the outfit I'm associated with.
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The club I flew with in San Diego had a policy that if you discovered an issue on the ground and returned the airplane, you weren't charged, but if you had to abort the flight for a maintenance issue after you took off, you had to pay initially, but were then reimbursed by the club's insurance. They were very good about reimbursing, but it was a bit annoying.
 
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