Should have sumped the tanks...

RotaryWingBob

RotaryWingBob

En-Route
Gone West
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
2,597
Location
Chester County, PA
Display Name
Display name:
iHover
I finished up my solo requirements today for my PP-RH with my long X-C, and the 3 patterns at a controlled field. One of the legs involved Lancaster, PA (LNS) which was also where I did the patterns.

I requested a landing at the Airways ramp because I wanted to get a soda and to visit the pilot shop (a really good one for those who haven't been there). I did a partial preflight of the important stuff (like main and tail rotors), got in and started up the helicopter and ran the checklist. Everything was fine, and I radioed the tower with a request to depart from the taxiway and to do my patterns. Get cleared to depart, do the patterns, and request a departure to the southeast.

I leveled off at 1,000 AGL, did an instrument scan, and realized that I had more fuel than when I had departed N99 earlier in the morning (both the aux and main tanks were showing full). My initial reaction was that the gauges had gone nuts. But on getting back to N99 I did a visual inspection of the fuel levels and both tanks were nearly full.

Now it's kind of weird when somebody tops off your aircraft while you're in the pilot shop when you didn't order any fuel.

By the time I figured out what had happened, I figured that I had been flying long enough that if it had been Jet-A instead of 100LL I would already have had to do an autorotation...

The lesson learned: don't assume that if you don't order fuel that you won't get it anyway, and don't assume when that happens that they gave you the right fuel. I will always sump now when I've left the aircraft alone! Always.
 
Bob,

If you were flying the Robinson between 12:30 and 1:15 at N99 that was me in the Mooney.

Len
 
RotaryWingBob said:
Now it's kind of weird when somebody tops off your aircraft while you're in the pilot shop when you didn't order any fuel.
Click to expand...

Did you call them to arrange payment, or do you have an account with that FBO?
 
Len Lanetti said:
Bob,

If you were flying the Robinson between 12:30 and 1:15 at N99 that was me in the Mooney.

Len
Click to expand...

About that time... LNS tower advised me of a Mooney coming in to 31 -- I replied that I saw him at my 9 o'clock -- was that you? We're you the one asking about a 24v cig lighter in your airplane?
 
I was flying from NJ to ND and stopped in Wisconsin for fuel. (Long flight, 14 hours, head winds) I told the lineman to fill it. I paid at the counter and took off without checking the tanks. My fuel guages dont really work but it bothered me so much that after i had already contacted flight following and at about 9500 feet I decided to come back down, landed at the nearest airport and checked the tanks. The guy only filled one tank. I would have run out of fuel while descending to my final destination. Even though God watches over drunks and fools, Always, Always, check the tanks.
 
bbchien said:
SEE the fuel.
Click to expand...

Not always possible, but I know the feeling. Sometimes you have to BE the fuel. You compare gallons from the fuel truck meter readings against what you burned. BTW as to sumping to make sure it's the right fuel, doesn't always work. If your tanks have sump boxes, you may still have a gallon or so of relatively straight 100LL coming out of the sump when you're on the ramp. Ask me how I know this....:rolleyes: . Anymore, no one I don't know personnally and specifically as competent fuels a plane I'm flying without me present.
 
Henning said:
Not always possible, but I know the feeling. Sometimes you have to BE the fuel. You compare gallons from the fuel truck meter readings against what you burned. BTW as to sumping to make sure it's the right fuel, doesn't always work. If your tanks have sump boxes, you may still have a gallon or so of relatively straight 100LL coming out of the sump when you're on the ramp. Ask me how I know this....:rolleyes: . Anymore, no one I don't know personnally and specifically as competent fuels a plane I'm flying without me present.
Click to expand...

I was wondering about this...
Lets say you had 35 gals of 100LL and someone added 10 of JetA. How had would it be to spot? I know that JetA is heavier I'm just wondering how easy it would be to spot on a sump test.
 
Iceman said:
I was wondering about this...
Lets say you had 35 gals of 100LL and someone added 10 of JetA. How had would it be to spot? I know that JetA is heavier I'm just wondering how easy it would be to spot on a sump test.
Click to expand...

In the large void of the tank, they will just mix together, the only way you'll know is by feel or smell. At 3.5-1 ratio, you'll get both. Color may be a bit different as well, but that's probably not as easily noticable. The problem really is if the sump is major league isolated like the "aerobatic boxes" in the Bonanza/Baron series planes (as well as others), the Jet A may not get in there until after the engines are running on those tanks.

BTW, If you really want to be anal, a Hydrometer is the most acurate way to know.
 
Last edited:
wangmyers said:
Free fuel!
Click to expand...

What are the chances that Bob got the fuel that someone else ordered for a differrent aircraft? And more importantly, did that pilot notice that he didn't get the fuel he asked for.
 
lancefisher said:
What are the chances that Bob got the fuel that someone else ordered for a differrent aircraft? And more importantly, did that pilot notice that he didn't get the fuel he asked for.
Click to expand...

I have to assume that's what happened, Lance. Maybe it was for a similar sounding tail number...
 
Iceman said:
I was wondering about this...
Lets say you had 35 gals of 100LL and someone added 10 of JetA. How had would it be to spot? I know that JetA is heavier I'm just wondering how easy it would be to spot on a sump test.
Click to expand...


I always thought that the blue 100ll would either become clear or change color so that you would know it was contaminated. Has that changed over the last 20 years?
 
Flyboy said:
I always thought that the blue 100ll would either become clear or change color so that you would know it was contaminated. Has that changed over the last 20 years?
Click to expand...

Try it (on a smaller scale). I think you'll find that the color is still pretty blue. The most noticeable difference will probably be the smell and slimy feeling on your fingers. Of course skin contact with fuel is supposed to be bad for you.
 
Geesh Bob!
You're making me thing 'bout getting locks for my fuel caps. I've thought about it before. There are times I park the plane in transient areas when traveling where someone could just tamper with fuel.
I've had a couple of FBO incidents but all where them not fueling as instructed. On more than one occassion they've topped mains and tips when I only wanted mains fueled. Added over 200 pounds to takeoff that I didn't want.
Never had a jet fuel mix up or had them fuel me with no bill.

Best,

Dave
 
Bill Jennings said:
Hmm, free gas, unless they turn in your tail # ????????

dunno...
Click to expand...

I dunno either, but since I didn't order fuel, it seems to me that it's on them...

If I had PAX I would probably been over gross.
 
lancefisher said:
Try it (on a smaller scale). I think you'll find that the color is still pretty blue. The most noticeable difference will probably be the smell and slimy feeling on your fingers. Of course skin contact with fuel is supposed to be bad for you.
Click to expand...

Terribly bad for you, sniffing it isn't a whole lot better, but switching to a tank with JetA instead of 100LL can be more immediately hazardous to your health.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
I dunno either, but since I didn't order fuel, it seems to me that it's on them...

If I had PAX I would probably been over gross.
Click to expand...

There is a good chance you won't hear from them. They stand to lose more than a fill up on a Robbie. You don't mess with aircraft unsolicited. Heck all you have to do is complain to their insurance carrier, that might jump their rate. That might be the way to go if they bill for it..."Hey, I didn't order any fuel, Are You Guys Telling Me You Were Messing With My Helicopter?!?! I'm sure the Feds and your insurance company would like to hear that! What, you guys running some kind of racket or are you just incompetent?"
 
Airways is a pretty good shop and perhaps I can understand a mix up between filling up the white Warrior and the White Archer or even stretching it the Cirrus instead of the Lancair. But how many helos were on the ramp?

Dispatch: Hey Joe top off the Mooney on the ramp!

Joe: Ya mean the mooney with the big propeller on top and tiny on on the back?

( Any resemblance to members of this board or real people is not interned and is purely coincidental)
 
Henning said:
Terribly bad for you, sniffing it isn't a whole lot better, but switching to a tank with JetA instead of 100LL can be more immediately hazardous to your health.
Click to expand...

I like your ranking:yes:.
 
Henning said:
There is a good chance you won't hear from them. They stand to lose more than a fill up on a Robbie. You don't mess with aircraft unsolicited. Heck all you have to do is complain to their insurance carrier, that might jump their rate. That might be the way to go if they bill for it..."Hey, I didn't order any fuel, Are You Guys Telling Me You Were Messing With My Helicopter?!?! I'm sure the Feds and your insurance company would like to hear that! What, you guys running some kind of racket or are you just incompetent?"
Click to expand...

Hey, don't get in trouble with them until you've seen their Pilot Shoppe. That place alone is worth the trip to LNS. :yes:
 
RotaryWingBob said:
I dunno either, but since I didn't order fuel, it seems to me that it's on them...

If I had PAX I would probably been over gross.
Click to expand...

Ah, an ethical conundrum. On the one hand the folks at LNS tampered with your aircraft, on the other hand you received some amount of fuel which is beneficial to you.

It seems to me that the folks at LNS need to know that an error was made, they have a problem and for the safety of others they need to fix it.

It seems to me that when somoeone makes a mistake that hurts us, we (society) are generally quick to place blame and demand compensation. If someone makes a mistake that benefits us (society) should we not acknowledge that and offer to compensate that person?

Last year I bought a Weber Kettle from my local hardware store. I was in a hurry and did not pay too much attention, they charged me the correct amount and I took it home and put it in the basement as I would not be needing it for another week or so. The day of the barbecue I pulled the box out and was about to set it up when I noticed that they had given me a larger kettle than I had paid for. Now I could have kept the larger kettle and congratulated myself on my good luck, but instead I put it in the car and took it back and got the correct one. This did not benefit me particularly, but it was, in my opinion, the right thing to do. But that is my frame of reference.

You are faced with the same decision though, do you use the fuel and shut up or do you pay for fuel you benefit from?

Now there is surely room for negotiation should you decide to return to LNS and pay for the fuel. If their fuel is more expensive than you would otherwise pay you ought to be able to get them to agree to a reduced price.

But this is just my opinion.
 
Henning said:
There is a good chance you won't hear from them. They stand to lose more than a fill up on a Robbie. You don't mess with aircraft unsolicited. Heck all you have to do is complain to their insurance carrier, that might jump their rate. That might be the way to go if they bill for it..."Hey, I didn't order any fuel, Are You Guys Telling Me You Were Messing With My Helicopter?!?! I'm sure the Feds and your insurance company would like to hear that! What, you guys running some kind of racket or are you just incompetent?"
Click to expand...

You're right, I'm po'd that someone did something to my aircraft without my knowledge. I think I remember the tower was talking to another aircraft which had a tail number ending in 27D. I guess some moron at Airways didn't bother to look at the whole number. I just hope the poor guy who ordered fuel checked his levels before departing...
 
Arnold said:
The day of the barbecue I pulled the box out and was about to set it up when I noticed that they had given me a larger kettle than I had paid for. Now I could have kept the larger kettle and congratulated myself on my good luck, but instead I put it in the car and took it back and got the correct one. This did not benefit me particularly, but it was, in my opinion, the right thing to do. But that is my frame of reference.
Click to expand...

I think I would probably have just given the store a manager a call hoping that he might say "just keep it", but planning to make the swap if he wanted it back. Of course if the mistake wasn't discovered in time to rectify before the event, he might have gotten a slightly used one back.

Same for the fuel. I'd call the FBO manager and explain. If he wanted to charge me for the fuel I'd offer to let him pump the fuel out the next time I visited or settle on a price that matched what I could do elsewhere. My guess is that the FBO would just say the fuel's on us and let it go for many reasons. The more important thing IMO is that the FBO might actually tighten their procedures to prevent a future occurance if they knew about it. It's not just the loss of money, they could have incurred some liability of they underfueled another aircraft or caused a W&B induced incident/accident for Bob.
 
lancefisher said:
I think I would probably have just given the store a manager a call hoping that he might say "just keep it", but planning to make the swap if he wanted it back. Of course if the mistake wasn't discovered in time to rectify before the event, he might have gotten a slightly used one back.
Click to expand...

To me that is an acceptable solution, but in this case the store is a mom and pop just a couple of blocks away and I rather do busines face to face when I easily can.

lancefisher said:
Same for the fuel. I'd call the FBO manager and explain. If he wanted to charge me for the fuel I'd offer to let him pump the fuel out the next time I visited or settle on a price that matched what I could do elsewhere. My guess is that the FBO would just say the fuel's on us and let it go for many reasons. The more important thing IMO is that the FBO might actually tighten their procedures to prevent a future occurance if they knew about it. It's not just the loss of money, they could have incurred some liability of they underfueled another aircraft or caused a W&B induced incident/accident for Bob.
Click to expand...

I agree that it is important that they know that the mistake was made, the potential for greater error seems high and that is why it was the first part of my response. I also agree that allowing them to pump the fule out is an attractive alternative. From a negotiating point of view you could certainly make the argument that "you put it there, you take it out" and if you stick to your guns they may be more inclined to just let you keep it. This probably keeps the response within the bounds of my personal ethical framework. But as I said in my message, this is MY ethical framework. Yours may be different.
 
They can't take the fuel back. They have no control over the conditions/contamination while is was not in their custody. Can you say "liability?"
 
bbchien said:
They can't take the fuel back. They have no control over the conditions/contamination while is was not in their custody. Can you say "liability?"
Click to expand...

Lots of FBO's will defuel your plane although most won't pay you for the fuel and many will actually charge you for the effort. I don't know what they do with it afterwards though. Does it go into a separate tank on the truck?
 
Henning said:
Terribly bad for you, sniffing it isn't a whole lot better, but switching to a tank with JetA instead of 100LL can be more immediately hazardous to your health.
Click to expand...

"Looks like i picked a bad day to quit sniffing glue"
AIRPLANE! 1984
 
lancefisher said:
Lots of FBO's will defuel your plane although most won't pay you for the fuel and many will actually charge you for the effort. I don't know what they do with it afterwards though. Does it go into a separate tank on the truck?
Click to expand...

It becomes sump fuel and is disposed of as hazardous waste.

I know of an FBO who keeps a pre-1973 fuel truck around that doesn't leave the premises and the trainers pull up to fuel from it. They burn the sump fuel to run it. Two birds with one stone.
 
larrysb said:
It becomes sump fuel and is disposed of as hazardous waste.

I know of an FBO who keeps a pre-1973 fuel truck around that doesn't leave the premises and the trainers pull up to fuel from it. They burn the sump fuel to run it. Two birds with one stone.
Click to expand...
Yah, and if they have a fuel problem, a stu or employee gets injured, they will eat it big time from the attorneys.
 
I think what he is saying is the fuel truck engine is fed the fuel from the aircraft sumps, not the other way around.

bbchien said:
Yah, and if they have a fuel problem, a stu or employee gets injured, they will eat it big time from the attorneys.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Should have sumped the tanks... a nice ending

We decided to call Airways to tell them what they had done. They agreed that they had done something very wrong, and offered us a substantial discount on the fuel they had put in the R22. They likewise seemed to understand that bad things (like W&B) that could have happened as a result of their actions.

Still, it taught me to look for too much fuel instead of just making sure I had enough.
 
Re: Should have sumped the tanks... a nice ending

RotaryWingBob said:
We decided to call Airways to tell them what they had done. They agreed that they had done something very wrong, and offered us a substantial discount on the fuel they had put in the R22. They likewise seemed to understand that bad things (like W&B) that could have happened as a result of their actions.

Still, it taught me to look for too much fuel instead of just making sure I had enough.
Click to expand...

Hey Bob,

Good for you!

Thanks for sharing your story as I had not heard one like it before. Very important lessons about pre-flight which need to be passed along.
 
Unregistered said:
I think what he is saying is the fuel truck engine is fed the fuel from the aircraft sumps, not the other way around.
Click to expand...


Yeah, the *fuel truck* is the waste disposal incinerator. The trainers get the fresh fuel from the tuck's big tank, which the students drain on pre-flight, dump into the waste jugs, which gets burned in the fuel-truck's lead-burning disposal engine. I think they charge themselves $10 a gallon to dispose of it. :)

Seems like a pretty cool system to me.

Funny thing is they were one of the last places to sell 80/87 when Kern stopped making it. Very popular fuel truck with the locals with lo-comp engines.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top