Short cycling of HVAC system

Sac Arrow

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Okay, so, I just had a brand new HVAC system installed. Lennox, with a Honeywell thermostat.

1. In the old system, you set the temperature (let's say 78 degrees) and the AC kicks on at 79, and shuts off at 77. Causes a decent run of the AC.

2. In the new system, it tries to maintain a constant 78 degree setpoint. This causes short cycling of the system. I don't like that. Wear and tear on the fans and compressors. Plus, less than efficient removal of humidity.

Is there as setting that I can look for to correct for this? I don't mind a few degrees spread. I don't like running for five minutes and shutting off.
 
Sometimes the thermostat has adjustments for this, you'll have to give more info on it if you want us to look. In the case of HVAC systems, bigger is generally not better. An oversized unit will act like you describe too. Basically it cools too quickly and you don't get rid of the humidity. But you should be able to get it to run the way you want, what about the guy who installed it?
 
Okay, so, I just had a brand new HVAC system installed. Lennox, with a Honeywell thermostat.

1. In the old system, you set the temperature (let's say 78 degrees) and the AC kicks on at 79, and shuts off at 77. Causes a decent run of the AC.

2. In the new system, it tries to maintain a constant 78 degree setpoint. This causes short cycling of the system. I don't like that. Wear and tear on the fans and compressors. Plus, less than efficient removal of humidity.

Is there as setting that I can look for to correct for this? I don't mind a few degrees spread. I don't like running for five minutes and shutting off.
Is the new one the same size as the old one. Getting to big a one can cause that.
 
As a person with a geothermal system that tries to always maintain a constant temperature, I feel your pain. The thermostat should have a setting in this, but most likely you will have to dig in the book. You are looking for the differential setting. It is probably set to 0.5 degrees. If you up it, it should run longer. It sounds like your previous system had a diff of at least 1 degree
 
We recently changed a worn out single stage to a variable speed system. It runs at low speed much of the time but that’s how it’s supposed to work. Nice improvement.
 
short cycling is a classic problem with a system that's oversized......did you oversize your order? o_O
 
General my experience is the short cycle is caused by the unit being low on refrigerant.

Jim

Nope. Brand new. And by the way, the previous system was low on coolant, and was not short cycling.

Sometimes the thermostat has adjustments for this, you'll have to give more info on it if you want us to look. In the case of HVAC systems, bigger is generally not better. An oversized unit will act like you describe too. Basically it cools too quickly and you don't get rid of the humidity. But you should be able to get it to run the way you want, what about the guy who installed it?

That could be problematic. I did find the manual for this Honeywell thermostat unit. As far as I can determine there is a fixed 1 degree differential and there is no option for adjustment. The manual does indicate a dehumidification setting which will have the effect of spreading the temperature differential, but a) my unit has no option for dehumidification, despite measuring the inside humidity, and b) that won't help in heating mode.

Short cycling, or a variable speed inverter system?

Short cycling. Fixed speed, no VFD.

As a person with a geothermal system that tries to always maintain a constant temperature, I feel your pain. The thermostat should have a setting in this, but most likely you will have to dig in the book. You are looking for the differential setting. It is probably set to 0.5 degrees. If you up it, it should run longer. It sounds like your previous system had a diff of at least 1 degree

2 degrees, yes.

short cycling is a classic problem with a system that's oversized......did you oversize your order? o_O

Nope. Both were 2 1/2 ton units. The previous unit would have run longer with the same 1 degree temperature differential, but it was also horribly inefficient.
 
You paid for this installation? The solution seems pretty simple.
 
Seriously, upgrade your thermostat. They have really improved in recent years. We like the Honeywell touchscreen models. Honeywell has a free app and you can control them from your phone anywhere with a net connection.
 
Yep. They just don't let you have electricity during the hot days. ;) :D
Yeah, we bring our own... did a whole-house battery install as our COVID project, backed up by a natural-gas fired generator (well, it's triple fueled, but we're running it on NG). No solar... with the EV rate, solar isn't much payback if you can avoid buying power during the peak period.
 
Yeah, we bring our own... did a whole-house battery install as our COVID project, backed up by a natural-gas fired generator (well, it's triple fueled, but we're running it on NG). No solar... with the EV rate, solar isn't much payback if you can avoid buying power during the peak period.

What's charging up the battery? Is it there just for emergencies? Just long enough for the generator to kick in?

I would have thought with the power rates in CA that solar would have made more sense there. Has CA cut out the incentives for solar? Solar would be helpful here to a point. In the summer the rates go up after so many kWh, which means as it gets hotter we pay more for electricity as the AC is running more, so we go over the kWh threshold. If one uses the Georgia Power pricing rate for EV vehicles, solar would really help as they give you power at night (1 cent / kWh), but you pay 20 cents/kWh during the hot part of the day. I was wondering if that delta in rate would pay for batteries (charge up at night and discharge during the day), but the Tesla batteries are rather pricey.
 
Sounds like you need a different thermostat.

Yep.

Seriously, upgrade your thermostat. They have really improved in recent years. We like the Honeywell touchscreen models. Honeywell has a free app and you can control them from your phone anywhere with a net connection.

That is exactly what I have. The interface is slick. I'm leery about enabling net access for controlling it because it appears as through I need to allow Honeywell access to my home network, and that don't serve Homie well.
 
Yep.

That is exactly what I have. The interface is slick. I'm leery about enabling net access for controlling it because it appears as through I need to allow Honeywell access to my home network, and that don't serve Homie well.

Yeah, that's not good.

Alexa and Siri laughed.jpg
 
Yep.



That is exactly what I have. The interface is slick. I'm leery about enabling net access for controlling it because it appears as through I need to allow Honeywell access to my home network, and that don't serve Homie well.

I bought an ecobee a few years ago, those aholes keep trying to save me money and letting the temps go over what I set. F them.
 
I bought an ecobee a few years ago, those aholes keep trying to save me money and letting the temps go over what I set. F them.

I am intrigued. I really don't need all the 'smart' features, I just want rudimentary control, with a temperature differential setting. Can it do that for me?
 
I am intrigued. I really don't need all the 'smart' features, I just want rudimentary control, with a temperature differential setting. Can it do that for me?
I think it can, but I've been having a hard time keeping the smart features turned off. I'd also try a google search, there are probably dumber/cheaper thermostats that will do what you want. I wanted the remote features, which is why I bought the ecobee.


From the manual on the ecobee4:

Cool Differential Temp: The minimum temperature differential before engaging cooling. This is set to 0.5⁰F/0.3⁰C by default. This setting will wait for the temperature in your home to rise by this value (0.5⁰F/0.3⁰C in the default scenario) above your set point before engaging your air conditioning. For example, if your Cool set point is 72⁰F, the ecobee will engage your air conditioning when the temperature in your home reaches above 72.5⁰F. This setting prevents your equipment from short cycling and helps to conserve energy.
 
New T-stats are only good for newish, airtight homes, IMHO. We added central HVAC to a nearly 100yo house. We were never satisfied until our HVAC guy found us an "antique" T-Stat that used mercury and had a manual hi/lo adjustments, Honeywell BTW. Didnt bother with any on/off numbers, just fiddled until each extreme just bordered on the "noticeable" scale. +7*/-5* I guess.
 
What's charging up the battery?
Normally, the utility, PG&E.

Is it there just for emergencies? Just long enough for the generator to kick in?
The primary purpose is a behind-the-meter (no export capability) uninterruptible power system. We didn’t want to run the generator continuously for a small load, but we did want continuous power. So the batteries facilitate that. Once installed, however, it turns out I can volunteer to participate in the "OhmConnect" program and get paid for reducing utility load when supply is short. I hope to automate that... my first attempt worked, but was cumbersome to keep online. We have enough storage for about 24 hours of background load (no air conditioning or electric oven use... just fridge, freezer, lights, etc.) When PG&E goes away for a PSPS (public safety power shutdown, AKA the wing is blowing 40 MPH or more) then the generator can run 2 hours a day to recharge the batteries for another 24 hours.


I would have thought with the power rates in CA that solar would have made more sense there.
It would have... but as I noted above, once you're on the Electric Vehicle rate (EV rate), off-peak power is about 1/3 the cost of peak power... it's a simple matter of programming to have the batteries shallow cycle daily to run the house on the inverter during the six-hour peak period, and recharge during the off-peak period. That cuts cost of electricity by about 2/3.


Has CA cut out the incentives for solar?
There's no unified answer for California, as we have a polymorphous system. The three, large IOUs (investor owned utilities) are regulated by the CPUC, California Public Utilities Commission. The CPUC has a significant progressive agenda with transfer payments galore, making incremental use for deemed-to-be wealthy people quite expensive. If you're paying that tier three rate, then solar is a bargain. But yes, the IOUs are doing everything they can to reduce solar incentives, both up front and ongoing.

The rest of the state has municipal utilities, including the enormous Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. They are very loosely regulated by the state legislature, and it's almost laissez faire: they are autonomous municipal authorities that make up their own rules, often as they go along... and rates vary widely from REALLY cheap, like Imperial Irrigation District, where power is a byproduct, to really not cheap, like Silicon Valley's municipal utility, or Alameda Island's, where admin costs are significant compared to kilowatt-hours delivered.


Solar would be helpful here to a point. In the summer the rates go up after so many kWh, which means as it gets hotter we pay more for electricity as the AC is running more, so we go over the kWh threshold.
Depending on the rate structure, battery storage might be a viable economic solution.


If one uses the Georgia Power pricing rate for EV vehicles, solar would really help as they give you power at night (1 cent / kWh), but you pay 20 cents/kWh during the hot part of the day. I was wondering if that delta in rate would pay for batteries (charge up at night and discharge during the day), but the Tesla batteries are rather pricey.
Yeah, Tesla is uneconomic. I think we provided more capability (more features) than Tesla, at about 1/3 the price per kiloWatt. But then... it's not as sleek and pretty a cabinet. I guess if that was important, I could buy a sleeker cabinet, but I had a suitable basement room, so that's where the batteries and charger/inverter live. The transfer switch and NG generator are outdoors, near the service entrance.

I was thinking about solar, but we need something somewhat custom, as we have a standing rib roof that's a design feature of our home. Flexible panels that fit between the standing ribs would be cool looking, but are more difficult to obtain (possibly only via custom fabrication, which is more expensive but not unconscionable). But, with storage in place, and looking at EV rates... well, solar isn't cost-effective until/unless the EV price structure changes.

What the entire system needs is more storage, as the California grid goes infeasible without PAYING Arizona to take our power at times. That's just goofy. The Germans did this better, I think... they thought it through, and created incentives for both storage *and* solar/wind... recognizing that success with non-conventional generation would create a necessity of storage... so why not build out the generation and storage systems logically and together. We have yet to come to that "aha!" realization here, it seems... in fact, the utilities fight consumers on storage, assuming you want to arbitrage them, buying cheap power and selling back expensive power, but at margins greater than they'd like to pay, and without a profit incentive for them. Those are fixable problems, but not readily in a polymorphous system, unless someone in the legislature (or California Energy Commission) wants to set aside politics (!) and put on their engineering/public policy hat. I'm not optimistic that will happen short of grid collapse crises.

Paul
 
I bought an ecobee a few years ago, those aholes keep trying to save me money and letting the temps go over what I set. F them.

I have ecobees and have not enabled the "feature" that allows the power company or the thermostat to change the set temp. All of the other features work though. There was a "bug" with ecobees at one point where once you turned the feature on or linked to your power company, it could not be turned off. This has supposedly been fixed. But if you agree to a rebate from your power company, you are agreeing to give them control.
 
Okay, so....

They sent the service tech out today. I figured fine, it's the first step in rectifying the situation. Now, as it turned out, we both learned something after he made a couple of calls once he had gone through the options in the thermostat menu.

It turns out Honeywell does address short cycling, just in a different manner than a differential temperature. They have a settable number of starts and stops per hour. He played with the defaults and showed me how to access the 'installer options' to get to it.

So we will see how that works out. He said they would be willing to swap it out with something else if it didn't.
 
Using a setting like that to solve a short cycle issue is like using a band-aid on a leg amputation.

Make them provide you with a thermostat that has an adjustable differential setting capability of at least the old standard of 2-3 degrees F.

Your new unit is likely more efficient, and if your old unit had one foot in the grave, your new unit might actually be a little oversized. Bad on your contractor if he didn't do a load calculation before he swapped a like for like.

That's lazy out to make a quick buck.

Depending on your location, outside conditions, and your setpoint, you obviously need more than a half degree of dead band. I'd be willing to bet that it would work just fine in the dead of summer.
 
Using a setting like that to solve a short cycle issue is like using a band-aid on a leg amputation.

Make them provide you with a thermostat that has an adjustable differential setting capability of at least the old standard of 2-3 degrees F.

Your new unit is likely more efficient, and if your old unit had one foot in the grave, your new unit might actually be a little oversized. Bad on your contractor if he didn't do a load calculation before he swapped a like for like.

That's lazy out to make a quick buck.

Depending on your location, outside conditions, and your setpoint, you obviously need more than a half degree of dead band. I'd be willing to bet that it would work just fine in the dead of summer.

The difference would have been a 2 ton unit, downsized from the existing 2 1/2 ton unit, which could barely pace the hottest days of summer. So, I don't have a problem with that.

I supposed you're right on the thermostat. But, so far things seem to be working out. Once the warranty period is up, I may well replace the thermostat with a configurable temperature differential. I don't see a reason to right now. That might be different come summer.
 
Redneck solution: hang a little blanket over the thermostat. That will increase the differential. It will slow the heating and cooling of the thermostat, fooling it into longer cycles.

Related story: I read of a couple of girls that rented a basement suite. The landlord (upstairs) had installed one of those locked plastic tamper-resistant cages over the downstairs thermostat and had set it to some coolish temperature to save on heating costs. The girls just put ice cubes in a plastic bag and set the bag on top of that cage. Got the heat they wanted.
 
The difference would have been a 2 ton unit, downsized from the existing 2 1/2 ton unit, which could barely pace the hottest days of summer. So, I don't have a problem with that.

I supposed you're right on the thermostat. But, so far things seem to be working out. Once the warranty period is up, I may well replace the thermostat with a configurable temperature differential. I don't see a reason to right now. That might be different come summer.


When the tech came out, you did make sure that the tech checked the unit for proper charge?
As someone already mentioned, if the unit has a low pressure cut out, it is possible that the unit was cycling on the low pressure switch.

And if there was no load calc performed, how do we know what size unit would work under max load conditions?

The unit might work fine the way it is, most of the time, until you reach that condition combination when it does not.
If you're willing to live with it, your choice.

I would want everything proper and correct before I let the contractor off the hook. Just sayin....
 
When the tech came out, you did make sure that the tech checked the unit for proper charge?
As someone already mentioned, if the unit has a low pressure cut out, it is possible that the unit was cycling on the low pressure switch.

And if there was no load calc performed, how do we know what size unit would work under max load conditions?

The unit might work fine the way it is, most of the time, until you reach that condition combination when it does not.
If you're willing to live with it, your choice.

I would want everything proper and correct before I let the contractor off the hook. Just sayin....

I'm actually very happy with the equipment and the install that was done. Both the heating and cooling units work great. It's the thermostat that I had the issue with.

And by the way I am an ME. I'm licensed and work as a CE but I have done heat calcs before.

Did I do any on my own home? No. I went with what worked.
 
Sounds like you already have all the answers.

Sorry for attempting to assist you. My bad.

It won't happen again.
 
Sounds like you already have all the answers.

Sorry for attempting to assist you. My bad.

It won't happen again.

I guess that did come across as defensive. No, I appreciate the feedback. If I didn't want it, I wouldn't have posted it up in the first place. I'm not trying to justify, I'm just saying where I'm at right now.
 
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