Shoddy Pre-buy inspection, where to complain?

UngaWunga said:
You don't sign the logs after doing an annual?
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Reading the regs, I don't see an obligation for an IA to document the inspection activity unless they are approving or disapproving the aircraft for return to service. If any maintenance was performed at the same time the airplane was opened up for inspection however, that would need to be documented.

So, what are you asking the IA to do? Perform an inspection with the same scope and detail as an annual inspection or are you asking them to inspect and certify it as airworthy and return it to service? As I mentioned before in this thread, an annual inspection may not have turned up the items the OP complained about if they were in passable (but not good) condition. The IA is only certifying that the airplane in question is in an airworthy configuration and condition at a moment in time but it may cease to be airworthy shortly after that point.

This is why I don't think an annual inspection is an adequate pre purchase inspection. Many things may be worn to their limits but still airworthy and it can be signed off as such. What a prospective buyer really seems to want to know is the overall condition and what is going to need to be addressed in the not too distant future, and that really isn't the purpose of an annual inspection in my opinion.
 
UngaWunga said:
You don't sign the logs after doing an annual?
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What I do wasn't the question..
Who is responsible for getting the entries.. the buyer or the seller.
AS a seller would you want me to place an unairworthy entry in your logs?
 
steingar said:
Says me.
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Then you'd say wrong.
I do your pre-buy as an annual, find it unairworthy, Would you as a seller allow me to place that entry in the log?

and remember it is the owners responsibility to get the entries, and remember it would not be the seller requesting me to do the annual.
If you are requesting me to do your pre-buy as an annual All I must do is the items listed in FAR 43-D. That would be a pizz poor pre-buy.
Just My Humble Opinion. But I'd want a lot more than that.
 
I know my view on things is wayyy off from others, however a prebuy to ME is to verify STATED, aka advertised, condition.

Unless the plane was advertised as NOT airworthy, airworthy is just the start and expected.

Paint is 9.5/10, no documented damage history, all ADs complied with etc, that's what you're checking ontop of the basic airworthy stuff, also verifying no inop equipment, verify performance based on the book or stated, go over all their paperwork, compared to the NTSB, FAA CD, Google etc.

You got to be filthy rich to no be there during a prebuy or not have a prebuy that well exceeds a standard annual, and to not even have a prebuy, that's like you must have go F' yourself kinda money.

I also agree to a price before the prebuy, anything that's not as advertised comes off the agreed to price, since the plane is not as advertised.

Also a fan of a slightly modified version of that free AOPA sales agreement



Tom-D said:
I do your pre-buy as an annual, find it unairworthy, Would you as a buyer allow me to place that entry in the log?
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What entry? You're going to "declare" a currently in annual aircraft unairworthy?
 
When you expect to hold any mechanic responsible for the work they do, you best be very explicit on what was asked of them.

Now you are trying to hold the A&P responsible for a pre-buy when there really is no such thing?

It just ain't going to happen.
 
""" What entry? You're going to "declare" a currently in annual aircraft unairworthy? """

You as a seller ask me to do an annual, I'll sign it off as I see it.

You as a buyer ask me to do an annual, ain't going to happen because you have no control over the airworthiness of the aircraft and have no right to ask me to do anything concerning the airworthiness of the aircraft.
 
stevenhmiller said:
I had a pre-buy inspection done on my plane. The shop missed some items that turned out to be very expensive to repair. The exhaust shroud was in very bad condition and totally needs replacing, and the alternator belt is badly cracked, almost all the way through. These were very visible from the outside and did not require disassembly to see.

I called the shop and their response was, "oh well. Sorry." Who can I file complaints with? I filed a complaint with the FAA Hotline Reporting.
Where else can I file complaints to get them investigated?
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Are you serious? The alternator belt needing replacement is causing you agida? Is this your first airplane?
 
paflyer said:
Are you serious? The alternator belt needing replacement is causing you agida? Is this your first airplane?
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I don’t know how it is on the OPs aircraft, but on mine the alternator belt replacement is a major deal.
 
steingar said:
I don’t know how it is on the OPs aircraft, but on mine the alternator belt replacement is a major deal.
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On every Lycoming I see, the prop must be removed to get it done.... not a pilot do. just saying 3 hours at least.
 
Tom-D said:
On every Lycoming I see, the prop must be removed to get it done.... not a pilot do. just saying 3 hours at least.
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I’ve seen some shops that will put a second/spare belt on over the prop shaft and tie it off so they don’t have to pull the prop the next time the belt needs to be changed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Tom-D said:
On every Lycoming I see, the prop must be removed to get it done.... not a pilot do. just saying 3 hours at least.
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That I know; annoying, sure, but so "expensive" that it's worth a POA rant? I suppose the case can be made that if the AP missed something as obvious as this, what else got overlooked?

Hopefully the OP put enough aside to cover the usual shakedown stuff for the next coupe of cycles.
 
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paflyer said:
That I know; annoying, sure, but so "expensive" that it's worth a POA rant?
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That is the thread title, after all... where to complain. LOL. Apparently the answer is ... here. And you’re still out your money on a bad one. :)
 
Fearless Tower said:
I’ve seen some shops that will put a second/spare belt on over the prop shaft and tie it off so they don’t have to pull the prop the next time the belt needs to be changed.
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Without an STC or field approval. My God, man, the airplane will fall out of the sky into the schoolyard full of innocents. Think of the children, the children, man!!
 
Fearless Tower said:
I’ve seen some shops that will put a second/spare belt on over the prop shaft and tie it off so they don’t have to pull the prop the next time the belt needs to be changed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Yeah, my Arrow had that thing tied off to the engine when I bought it. I had my AP remove that crap when I got it home; it was tied with a fuel line as part of the fitting job. I'm sure people have their reasons, but to me it wasn't worth it. If I'm that concerned that the belt won't make it to the next annual, I just replace it at annual. It's not a big to do for me.

weirdjim said:
Without an STC or field approval. My God, man, the airplane will fall out of the sky into the schoolyard full of innocents. Think of the children, the children, man!!
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I hear ya, and I may or may not be guilty of "helping" with certain mx items on my airplane; I'm also as anti-part23 in present form as they come. But I'm telling ya in this case it could cause you to fall out the sky, if you saw how it was tied off to the airplane I bought. Part of the reason we even have that visual inspection AD on the fuel lines on Lycos is because dumb dumbs end up tying their trinkets to them like it's a cloth line. In typical fashion, the govt reacts in "one ****s their pants, we all get to wear diapers" manner.
 
Tom-D said:
Then you'd say wrong.
I do your pre-buy as an annual, find it unairworthy, Would you as a seller allow me to place that entry in the log?
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Never. Lot's of shops make mistakes and if it is a big ticket item I'm getting a 2nd or even 3rd opinion. Just sold my Tiger. In my situation below, inspection was at a place used 3 times (for this aircraft during it's 40 years in service) and a supposed "top Tiger" facility in the nation. "Boutique" Tiger shop was given EXPLICIT instructions by me regarding the pre-buy:

1. Inspection Only - paid for by buyer
2. Seller not paying for anything at this point
3. After list is compiled and worked out with buyer, buyer will purchase aircraft and they can do as they please
4. Airworthy items will be the only items responsible to the seller, and not repaired until approved.

Buyer indicated they wanted an annual when they purchase. I told them fine, get one or have the pre-buy converted after they own it. After purchase, shop did whatever they had to in addition to the pre-buy (not much at that shop), and buyer left with an annual. There's a service bulletin on Tigers that many mechanics misread and think it is a recurring item, and it's not.
 
Tom-D said:
""" What entry? You're going to "declare" a currently in annual aircraft unairworthy? """

You as a seller ask me to do an annual, I'll sign it off as I see it.

You as a buyer ask me to do an annual, ain't going to happen because you have no control over the airworthiness of the aircraft and have no right to ask me to do anything concerning the airworthiness of the aircraft.
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So how would you word that entry?
 
James331 said:
So how would you word that entry?
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Inspected aircraft as requested yada yada
no mention of any Annual.
no mention of any airworthiness.
You enter only what you did, nothing more.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I’ve seen some shops that will put a second/spare belt on over the prop shaft and tie it off so they don’t have to pull the prop the next time the belt needs to be changed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I would love to see a poll of how many folks had a belt break on a plane they owned. I'm just now replacing a belt I installed 14 years ago because I found a small separation at the splice and had the prop off for unrelated reasons.
 
bnt83 said:
I would love to see a poll of how many folks had a belt break on a plane they owned. I'm just now replacing a belt I installed 14 years ago because I found a small separation at the splice and had the prop off for unrelated reasons.
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I’ve only owned one airplane with a belt driven alternator. I had one belt fail. It was on my Baron during a x-country trip, so no big deal. I had a second alternator and being a Continental, it was an easy fix when I got to my destination.

All the other airplanes I’ve owned use generators.
 
Tom-D said:
Inspected aircraft as requested yada yada
no mention of any Annual.
no mention of any airworthiness.
You enter only what you did, nothing more.
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You had findings, positive or negative, you aren't going to mention that? Why even make the log book entry then?
 
GlennAB1 said:
You had findings, positive or negative, you aren't going to mention that? Why even make the log book entry then?
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I believe any descrepencies are normally noted on a separate piece of paper.
 
James331 said:
I believe any descrepencies are normally noted on a separate piece of paper.
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When you are hired by the buyer, you owe them the list of discrepancies. that's about all. Morality wise, you owe the seller no damage.
 
Tom-D said:
When you are hired by the buyer, you owe them the list of discrepancies. that's about all. Morality wise, you owe the seller no damage.
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And if you find serious airworthiness issues that cause your buyer to walk away... what about the morality concerning the next buyer that may not have a pre buy done or a pre buy that doesn't uncover what you've found?
 
I have no faith in OSU's maintenance based on my direct experience with them. You're better off calling Lane at CMH or an indy you can trust.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I’ve seen some shops that will put a second/spare belt on over the prop shaft and tie it off so they don’t have to pull the prop the next time the belt needs to be changed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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You should see what the belt is like after three or four years of being strapped to a hot crankcase. It might last long enough to get you home. Not much longer. The rubber is cooked.
 
Update.
The shop in question offered an acceptable resolution.
To all who commented, this was supposed to be an extensive inspection. I'm in New York and the plane was in Ohio. I could not be there for the inspection, but spent many hours on the phone talking to the manager of the shop before, during and after the inspection. The total inspection with repairs took 3 days.
 
and now you're going to leave us hanging? CLIFF HANGER THREAD ENDING!
 
Tom-D said:
Inspected aircraft as requested yada yada
no mention of any Annual.
no mention of any airworthiness.
You enter only what you did, nothing more.
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Tom why would you respond to some of the know-it-all types that will never listen to your expertise or any others trying to educate them. I know your trying to help out some of the good people on the board but you need to ignore some of the self-proclaimed know-it-all ones.
 
stevenhmiller said:
Update.
The shop in question offered an acceptable resolution.
To all who commented, this was supposed to be an extensive inspection. I'm in New York and the plane was in Ohio. I could not be there for the inspection, but spent many hours on the phone talking to the manager of the shop before, during and after the inspection. The total inspection with repairs took 3 days.
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Glad it worked out OK
 
bnt83 said:
I would love to see a poll of how many folks had a belt break on a plane they owned. I'm just now replacing a belt I installed 14 years ago because I found a small separation at the splice and had the prop off for unrelated reasons.
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Owned or flew?

Had an alternator belt bust on a rental Skyhawk once. Was pretty much a non-event other than there was no charging going on, so the avionics were going to slowly kill the battery.
 
brien23 said:
Tom why would you respond to some of the know-it-all types that will never listen to your expertise or any others trying to educate them. I know your trying to help out some of the good people on the board but you need to ignore some of the self-proclaimed know-it-all ones.
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Because you can't educate any of them if you don't talk to them all.
This board doesn't work that way.
 
GlennAB1 said:
And if you find serious airworthiness issues that cause your buyer to walk away... what about the morality concerning the next buyer that may not have a pre buy done or a pre buy that doesn't uncover what you've found?
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Unless performing a pre-buy inspection somehow makes Tom responsible for that aircraft until the end of time, it isn't his problem.
 
Grum.Man said:
Wow a shop does a half a$$ pre-buy and everyone attacks the guy here... amazing. To others points, unless it was done as an annual or 100 hr inspection there isn't much you can do short of warning others and reporting to BBB.
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He never stated any specifics. Did he ask the a&p to do a complete check or just eyeball it? How much did he pay? It's amazing how many people think a mechanics time is worth nothing.
 
You can sue them for negligence - proving they violated the standard of care - what is the standard of care? There is none.

Which is why the ONLY decent prebuy is an annual inspection. Remember- it is an inspection. Not a repair of every squawk they find. YOU have to pay for it.

Of course, if you look through the posts you will see the results of my last effort at due diligence.

The seller wanted zero liability and was trying to insulate himself by buying another airplane first- and giving that seller his airplane so that the seller for paperwork process was not the true seller but the poor schlub who 'sold him' his airplane - with not even a promissory note but a handshake.

Suffice to say that deal did not close - because I was not willing to offer fair market value to a straw man seller. Yes- the airplane is still for sale. . . .
 
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