Shock cooling - and related damage. is it a myth?

Stating simple facts is not "a bashing game." I've been reading Mike's writings for 15+ years now.

Care to share an example of the something you disagree with Busch on?

From what I've seen he has a pretty solid following and has quite a bit of evidence to back up most of his claims. He's been a great educator on the subject even if he's trying to promote his savvy maintenance business or w/e its called.
 
Care to share an example of the something you disagree with Busch on?

From what I've seen he has a pretty solid following and has quite a bit of evidence to back up most of his claims. He's been a great educator on the subject even if he's trying to promote his savvy maintenance business or w/e its called.
Jim Jones had a following too.
 
No, it's not a Myth, unless you fly someone else's acft. Birds are high wing for a reason. Left of peak only if it's a rental, and you pay for fuel, not your own.
 
Stating simple facts is not "a bashing game." I've been reading Mike's writings for 15+ years now.



I couldn't disagree more. Salesmen are people who can look you in the eye, lie to you, and make you truly believe they're your best friend and being honest.

Anyone can sell something that they truly believe in but it takes a salesman to blow smoke up you azz and make you like it.
The word salesman has gotten a lot of derogatory connotation to it.

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Care to share an example of the something you disagree with Busch on?

From what I've seen he has a pretty solid following and has quite a bit of evidence to back up most of his claims. He's been a great educator on the subject even if he's trying to promote his savvy maintenance business or w/e its called.
disagreeing is one thing and flatly calling out every AP in this board is better than another A&P is another
 
Care to share an example of the something you disagree with Busch on?

Just a couple of his gems over the years on CPA:

He told someone that they didn't need to worry much about their oil not getting up to operating temperature in the winter because the air doesn't hold much moisture in the wintertime when it's cold and therefore water doesn't need to be "boiled out" of the oil like it does in the summer. Someone else on the board had to point out to him that water in the oil was a byproduct of combustion...not moisture in the air.

Then there was his claim that you're costing yourself money if you stop at the SS island to fill up before taxiing on to your hangar. It's a false economy because cold starts are what puts wear and tear on your engine. Somone had to point out to him that the start-up after filling up wasn't a cold start.

I'm not saying that everything Mike espouses is BS, I'm just saying be careful what you believe, don't assume that he's god, and use common sense.
 
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I'm not saying that everything Mike espouses is BS, I'm just saying be careful what you believe, don't assume that he's god, and use common sense.
thats exactly what i am trying to do and i believe other AC owners try to do as well. here is the thing, i am not a mechanic, i dont know what every nuts and bolts do inside the engine, heck i have enough trouble keeping up with things that i am supposed to know inside the cockpit. so as an aircraft owner what are my options?

1. talk to my A&P - is he the end all be all? no
2. talk to other pilots - they all have different opinions that they have heard over the years
3. read books and articles written by prominent people in prominent places - same conflicting information everywhere, most of of the times.
4. use your own reasoning and subscribe to one method until proven otherwise

if you have written a bunch on engines, i would be happy to read them too.
 
I am also curious at what rate the engine actually does cool on shut down. One would think that the airflow would aid in this, but an engine not developing power even though stationary cools quicker based on the article.

“In fact, the real shock cooling comes at the end of the flight when you pull the mixture to idle cutoff and the CHTs drop at more than 100 degrees per minute right away—yet every engine goes through that sort of shock cooling and manages to survive it.”

That seems hard to argue if true.

So he's saying that the CHTs can drop from 350 to 100 in two and a half minutes after shutdown?? I wish. As a mechanic I often get to burn my fingers on engines that were shut down ten minutes before as I'm getting ready to pull sparkplugs and check compression.

So many "facts" from guys who have never actually had to deal with this stuff in any concrete way.
 
i am not a mechanic,

I'm not an A&P either but I've always been pretty mechanically minded. I was tearing dad's lawn mower and tiller engines apart by the time I was 11 or 12. It used to really pizz him off. He'd get home from work, see the lawn mower engine scattered across his shop and say "son, the lawn needs to be mowed on Thursday and that motor better be back together and running by then or you'll be cutting the lawn with the reel mower." That was definitely some motivation...certainly didn't want to cut 3 acres with a reel mower!

Oh, and then, one night, as dad was walking away shaking his head because his 5hp tiller motor was scattered across the shop, he mumbled "son, sometimes I think the best part of you ran down your mother's leg."

I was like a sophomore in high school before it dawned on me exactly WTF he said!! He had a way with words. My favorite, when I'd be whining about something not being fair, "son, you'll find that the only thing fair in life is where the 4H kids take their (bleeping) animals."

I certainly don't know everything but I know enough to be able to sniff out BS. And mike Busch definitely doles out his share.

Dad could sniff out BS too, most of it mine!
 
But you have no airspeed for the cooling. These engines are aircooled, which is a function of airspeed. Plus the higher you are, the colderctge temps.

...but density drops off nonlinearly with altitude, temperature barely does so linearly. IOW, cooling environmentals of air cooled piston engines actually degrade with altitude. it is also why turbo installations do so poorly in pistons in the aggregate. Mass Flow Rate, not temperature, is the driver of cooling capacity in this context.
 
I'm not an A&P either but I've always been pretty mechanically minded. I was tearing dad's lawn mower and tiller engines apart by the time I was 11 or 12. It used to really pizz him off. He'd get home from work, see the lawn mower engine scattered across his shop and say "son, the lawn needs to be mowed on Thursday and that motor better be back together and running by then or you'll be cutting the lawn with the reel mower." That was definitely some motivation...certainly didn't want to cut 3 acres with a reel mower!

Oh, and then, one night, as dad was walking away shaking his head because his 5hp tiller motor was scattered across the shop, he mumbled "son, sometimes I think the best part of you ran down your mother's leg."

I was like a sophomore in high school before it dawned on me exactly WTF he said!! He had a way with words. My favorite, when I'd be whining about something not being fair, "son, you'll find that the only thing fair in life is where the 4H kids take their (bleeping) animals."

I certainly don't know everything but I know enough to be able to sniff out BS. And mike Busch definitely doles out his share.

Dad could sniff out BS too, most of it mine!
dude.. chill. you dont like Mike, its quite evident, from what i have read from your other earlier posts. every now and then pilots make bad landings, doesnt mean he a crappy pilot all the time.
if you are not an A&P, i dont understand how u are calling BS on another A&P. but again, i am just a dump pilot..what do i know.

Bashing other people especially when you are not even in the same domain, doesnt make your point stand.
 
if you are not an A&P, i dont understand how u are calling BS on another A&P
I didn't call BS solo, I watched the aviation community at CPA call BS...on more than one occasion...as outlined... but that definitely gave me a jaundiced eye.
 
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just ask your CFI....she'll know.

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1. I have heard about "shock cooling" my entire flying life. That's over 50 years.
2. I have never seen a cylinder or engine that has been definitively proven to have been damaged by "shock cooling".
3. I routinely fly in very cold winter weather, and have never personally damaged an engine by pulling the throttle all the way back when descending.

Does "shock cooling" exist in aviation. Maybe it does. But I have never experienced it, never seen it, and never seen any proof of it.
That being said, If there are cowl flaps, I use them in cold weather. If there are no cowl flaps, I will bring the engine down to idle at a slower pace in cold weather.
It's like chicken soup. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't.
But I want to be here 50 years from now having the same arguments. :D
 
I didn't call BS solo, I watched the aviation community at CPA call BS...on more than one occasion...as outlined... but that definitely gave me a jaundiced eye.
Cool. I wonder why EAA keeps calling him back

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I didn't call BS solo, I watched the aviation community at CPA call BS...on more than one occasion...as outlined... but that definitely gave me a jaundiced eye.

So, your analysis of Some Guys On the Internet's comments about a particular guy on the internet (Mike) is proof positive?

Wow.
 
You guys are slipping... how has this not been said:

This thread is beating a banned Horse.
 
So, your analysis of Some Guys On the Internet's comments about a particular guy on the internet (Mike) is proof positive?

Wow.

That's not even close to how it played out or what I said. But I know you can never pass up a chance to slam me. Your track record is perfect.

Keep it up! It may ease that extreme case of butt hurt someday.

Edit: seriously, look at how freakin' ludicrous those two claims of his were. He wasn't as well known at that time but he was already portraying himself as the expert's expert over at CPA. It didn't take another A&P or a collective of SGOTIs to see the bogosity, rather a collective of left brained people with mechanical ability, experience and common sense.

To his credit, he has managed to learn over the years from others and transform that learning into a money making machine. But the man seems to lack common sense, he just parrots his learning. His theory on wintertime moisture in oil is a testament to that.
 
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Let's not turn this into a bashing game. Whether he is a salesman or not doesn't matter, every successful person is a sales man, one way or another. He does makes some great point, for example not descending with a full mixture, lycoming has the same recommendation during winter ops and it makes sense. However, POH says keep it full rush. Who do i listen to? The POH that was written 40 yrs back with a single EGT gauge? Or the people who are making a case of finding out what your system is telling u when have an engine monitor? I have also heard recommendations from A&P s that say, always keep EGT below 1425 for O-360. That doesn't make any sense when u have a zillion probes telling u individual cylinder and exhaust temp.


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It’s only bashing if he’s lying about mike. If I said mike is a white male is that bashing. Of course not. Now if I say mike is an excellent sales man but his technical knowledge is not quite as good as he claims. Is that bashing??? I don’t think so.
Saying mike is stupid or you should ignore everything mike says yeah that’s bashing.

Pointing out to other board members quoting mike that just because he speaks with authority does not necessarily mean he is an expert... well that is being a friend and good neighbor in the POAcommunity. That’s not bashing mike
 
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I am also curious at what rate the engine actually does cool on shut down. One would think that the airflow would aid in this, but an engine not developing power even though stationary cools quicker based on the article.

“In fact, the real shock cooling comes at the end of the flight when you pull the mixture to idle cutoff and the CHTs drop at more than 100 degrees per minute right away—yet every engine goes through that sort of shock cooling and manages to survive it.”

That seems hard to argue if true.
Consider the difference in chopping from cruise power to, say 15" MP in one shot with air flowing over the cylinders with a shutdown after incremental power reductions (and cooling) from cruise to descent to pattern to landing to taxi, then to shutdown.

I'm one of those who admits to inadequate knowledge, so I have no opinion, other than to join @Zeldman's
...but I understand engine management.
 
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Regarding shock cooling I have replaced cylinders on one airplane that I think were killed by shock cooling. It was a P baron being flown by new owner with no experience managing high altitude engines. Notice I used the plural of cylinders. 5 new cylinders after two flights in the new plane. We were the shop prior to sell as well. So it was known to be in good condition.

Normally aspirated engines operating in low altitude environments are not at risk in my opinion. It’s the high altitude forced induction variety that are at risk and even then it takes effort to cause a problem.

But we can believe whatever we want to believe. I guess it comes down to cost analysis.

Manage our descent and engine temperature.....free

Chop and drop from 18k in a 421 because you believe and then prove once and for all it’s a bad thing.....very expensive.

Whatever. Do what you want to.
 
those high altitude engines with turbos are more prone to overheating CHTs too.....don't be fooled. That's why inner coolers are added....to allow more power without the heating....even with em....they can easily be overheated.
 
those high altitude engines with turbos are more prone to overheating CHTs too.....don't be fooled. That's why inner coolers are added....to allow more power without the heating....even with em....they can easily be overheated.

That's NOT why intercoolers are added.
 
ain't that the truth.....Every one I attended last year was over flow seating in the largest pavilion.

With his latest conversion to RCM....I get kinda giddy, since I've done RCM before it was cool.....back in the early 90's.

Yeah, but I've seen issues with either how he promotes RCM or how others take it. As I often say, he makes money by telling you not to fix your aircraft. He also oversimplifies decisions that are often complex and can result in extra downtime. That's fine if you don't need the plane, but if you have a plane that works for a living and has a job to do, his methods are often not the right answer. Either way, a lot of times his techniques cost more in the long run.

But, you know that. A lot of others don't.

It’s only bashing if he’s lying about mike. If I said mike is a white male is that bashing. Of course not. Now if I say mike is an excellent sales man but his technical knowledge is not quite as good as he claims. Is that bashing??? I don’t think so.
Saying mike is stupid or you should ignore everything mike says yeah that’s bashing.

Pointing out to other board members quoting mike that just because he speaks with authority does not necessarily mean he is an expert... well that is being a friend and good neighbor in the POAcommunity. That’s not bashing mike

Exactly the point that I've always made. Mike speaks very authoritatively, and he's sure good at selling himself as the be-all end-all know-all of piston aviation. Not saying everything he says is wrong - he's made some very good points and helped a number of people think outside of the box about maintenance. He also has caused his share of problems for GA as a whole, or come damn close to it, and then when others manage to secure victory he takes credit.

More than anything, he was a guy who had a business idea at the right time to make it start, and it's worked well for him.

those high altitude engines with turbos are more prone to overheating CHTs too.....don't be fooled. That's why inner coolers are added....to allow more power without the heating....even with em....they can easily be overheated.

It's true that those high altitude engines are more prone to high CHTs, but that's not why intercoolers are added. Yes, you do generally observe lower CHTs with intercoolers (when properly managed), but the real reason has to do with making more power at altitude for better performance up there and also to improve detonation margins.

Intercoolers have to be balanced against the weight they add, though, which is why not all turbo planes have intercoolers on them and why they're often undersized. Often, the OEMs decided that the weight and complexity of the intercooler wasn't worth it for the benefits on a particular airframe. Note that the Navajos don't have intercoolers, even P-Navajos don't. The Mojave did. Original 340s and 414s didn't have intercoolers, T310s didn't have intercoolers, nor did 320s. Later, Cessna added a very poor intercooler (~30% efficient) to the 340 and 414, which was still enough to help at altitude quite a bit. However, RAM and American Aviation have both improved upon the intercooler performance significantly. AA did it with bigger intercoolers and giant scoops, RAM put scoops on the stock intercooler for the RAM VI conversion, and for RAM VII went with a bigger intercooler with a much improved scoop design.

Cessna got the 421's intercoolers figured out pretty optimally from the get-go, though.

Basically a lot of those earlier turbo piston aircraft weren't expected to be operated as high as some people ended up operating them. The 421 was an exception to that.

But yes, those engines run hotter up high, and are more prone to shortened lifespans by engine management.
 
It’s only bashing if he’s lying about mike. If I said mike is a white male is that bashing. Of course not. Now if I say mike is an excellent sales man but his technical knowledge is not quite as good as he claims. Is that bashing??? I don’t think so.
Saying mike is stupid or you should ignore everything mike says yeah that’s bashing.

Pointing out to other board members quoting mike that just because he speaks with authority does not necessarily mean he is an expert... well that is being a friend and good neighbor in the POAcommunity. That’s not bashing mike

I was referring to this part "
Mike Busch is one helluva salesman but he likely has far less actual mechanical knowledge than most (all?) A&Ps here.
"
I am not an A&P, so when I call one having far less mechanical knowledge than another A&P ... donno.. what do you want to call it? clearly there is a camp here that doesn't like Mike and what he preaches. I do not have enough knowledge to know who is right and who is wrong. now shall we talk about who is a better CFI? Rod Machado or King?
 
I highly recommend attending the Advanced Pilot Seminars in Ada OK. You will learn that the airport big mouth and the OWT's are based generally upon a little bit of fact and a whole lot of "interpretation". They will show you hard data and you will come away with a very good knowledge of how to really manage your airplane engines.
Mike Busch attended three times.
 
now shall we talk about who is a better CFI? Rod Machado or King?

@jesse has them both beat, hands down!!! ;)

I highly recommend attending the Advanced Pilot Seminars in Ada OK. You will learn that the airport big mouth and the OWT's are based generally upon a little bit of fact and a whole lot of "interpretation". They will show you hard data and you will come away with a very good knowledge of how to really manage your airplane engines.
Mike Busch attended three times.

I too would highly recommend these seminars. The Ada boys really have their chit together.

Three times? I'll hold my tongue. :)

EDIT: you know, now that I think about it, it might have been the Ada boys who used to hand MB his azz over at CPA. They were quite active there in the old days too. Someone, I'm not exactly sure who it was, used to go back and forth with Mike all the time. Similar to the way Tom and Glenn do here.
 
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I highly recommend attending the Advanced Pilot Seminars in Ada OK. You will learn that the airport big mouth and the OWT's are based generally upon a little bit of fact and a whole lot of "interpretation". They will show you hard data and you will come away with a very good knowledge of how to really manage your airplane engines.
Mike Busch attended three times.
well.....then, Mike is now an expert. ;)
 
I don't understand the talk to your AP thing.

I mean APs, unless they are also pilot, are not who is talk to about operational matters.
 
So what I heard through the article and the thread is that shock cooling is a myth. Does that mean it really is OK to spray down the engine with cold water when I'm through flying? :D
 
Q for an expert that's torn an engine down - What is the symptom of shock cooling? Cracked jug? scored piston? or?
 
So what I heard through the article and the thread is that shock cooling is a myth. Does that mean it really is OK to spray down the engine with cold water when I'm through flying?
Yes, even if it makes a ting sound and it's not your plane.
 
^because otherwise the POH would prohibit you from flying through rain

**I still can't figure out if horse's thread was real or a troll
 
So what I heard through the article and the thread is that shock cooling is a myth. Does that mean it really is OK to spray down the engine with cold water when I'm through flying? :D

You mean you don't do that now? How do you keep it clean? I use a 90,000 psi pressure washer powered by a surplus R-2800 I bought off of eBay after every flight. Gets the crankshaft really clean and gets all that messy oil off of it. Yeah, I may have ended up with a few more holes in the crankcase than I did when I bought the plane and it's eaten through a few fuel oil hoses but who cares? That's what the pressure washer is for and my engine gets sparkly clean after every flight. Plus more oil consumption is really more better because that way there's always fresh oil in it. I change the hoses once every 40 years whether they need it or not anyway, you know, preventative maintenance.
 
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