Several Sport Pilot Questions

[michael Killacky]

I'm venturing into an area where I have less knowledge than usual, so I'll ask a bit of advice. A good friend of mine wanted to start training for his PPL, but, unfortunately, will have to go the Sport Pilot Route. As many of you know, LSA airplanes are few and far between on rental lines. A good local instructor suggested beginning his training in a 152, and if he decides he likes it, finding an LSA to buy and transitioning into it. Sounded really good to me, any other opinions out there?

Secondly, any ideas on where to find an LSA? Doesn't seem to be many on the usual sites. He's not intrested in a kit, he'd like something ready to fly. Ideas?

I know I will have to ask this question at the local FBO, but what thoughts do y'all have concerning buying a newer LSA and putting it on the line for a leaseback. Seems to me that this could be a decent option if the FBO was interested.

Finally, and Doc Bruce touched on this on the red board, but somewhere deep in my Rev. Jim memory (borrowed from Ed Guthrie) I seem to remember a Counsel opinion that stated, in part, That using a disqualifying medication wasn't disqualifying as a Sport Pilot. I beleive that a letter from the FAA would help clear up any confusion on the part of the instructor. I did tell my friend to get a letter stating he was fit to operate a motor vehicle from his PCP, but a Counsel opinion would be nice to see.


You know I'd post here a lot more, but this letter took about 1/2 hour to type. How do you people do it?


All opinions and thoughts are welcome,

Mike

 

[Cap'n Jack]

IMHO-
-Look at the leaseback sticky in this forum.

-As I understand it, a driver's license is all you need for be fit for sport pilot in general. There are probably som disqualifying conditions. Look in the back issues of AOPA magazine and Flying- both did a reasonable job explaining the ins & outs of the sport flying rules.

-Some current certified aircraft fall under LSA- Piper Cub, Ercoupe, and a few others. These can be inexpensive compared to a new plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

A good local instructor suggested beginning his training in a 152, and if he decides he likes it, finding an LSA to buy and transitioning into it. Sounded really good to me, any other opinions out there?

The only sticky point would be that unless he obtains a Third Class Medical and regular Student Pilot certificate, he will not be able to solo the 152.

Secondly, any ideas on where to find an LSA? Doesn't seem to be many on the usual sites. He's not intrested in a kit, he'd like something ready to fly. Ideas?

Try http://www.sportpilot.org/, http://www.lama.bz/, and http://www.lightsportaircraft.com/.

I know I will have to ask this question at the local FBO, but what thoughts do y'all have concerning buying a newer LSA and putting it on the line for a leaseback. Seems to me that this could be a decent option if the FBO was interested.

If there's a demand for such an aircraft, and you can get two or three on the line (a single copy of an unusual type aircraft often languishes on a rental line -- scheduling problems, no backups during maintenance, etc), it could work out well, provided you fully understand the issues involved in leasebacks -- see Jason Hegel's point paper on that.

Finally, and Doc Bruce touched on this on the red board, but somewhere deep in my Rev. Jim memory (borrowed from Ed Guthrie) I seem to remember a Counsel opinion that stated, in part, That using a disqualifying medication wasn't disqualifying as a Sport Pilot.

I don't think you can find such a letter, as it would depend on the medication, and whether the FAA's chief doc thought that medication (or the condition requiring its use) "would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner." The individual and his/her physician can make a decision on that matter, but that is always subject to review by the Federal Air Surgeon (not to mention a civil court jury of 12 people picked at random off the street) if something bad happens.

I beleive that a letter from the FAA would help clear up any confusion on the part of the instructor.

It might, but you'd probably have a lot of trouble getting it. Dr. Bruce can probably give more detailed and more reliable input on this.

I did tell my friend to get a letter stating he was fit to operate a motor vehicle from his PCP, but a Counsel opinion would be nice to see.

I do not think such a letter from his primary care physician would meet the requirement quoted above from 14 CFR 61.53(b). I think the letter would have to say the medication/underlying condition "did not make the person unable to operate [whatever aircraft is proposed] in a safe manner." I'm sure there are plenty of conditions which would not allow one to safely operate a motor vehicle but could make one unable to safely operate an aircraft. Also, by signing such a letter, the individual's doctor would be betting his/her malpractice insurance on being right, as s/he would be the second name on the lawsuit by injured parties if his/her patient crashed a light sport plane with such a letter on record.

In addition, I do not see the FAA Chief Counsel issuing a ruling on one individual's medical condition -- I believe that would be deferred to the Federal Air Surgeon, and that may be a case where the FAS's sense of caution would tend towards a "no" answer out of general principles, especially if it was one of the invariably disqualifying conditions (epilepsy, bipolar disorder, psychosis, etc) or one of the "special issuance required" conditions (diabetes requiring medication, heart attack, etc, unless the individual has passed the medical tests normally demanded for special issuance). But again, Dr. Bruce may have a better handle on this than I.

 

[bbchien]

It might, but you'd probably have a lot of trouble getting it. Dr. Bruce can probably give more detailed and more reliable input on this.

I do not think such a letter from his primary care physician would meet the requirement quoted above from 14 CFR 61.53(b). I think the letter would have to say the medication/underlying condition "did not make the person unable to operate [whatever aircraft is proposed] in a safe manner." I'm sure there are plenty of conditions which would not allow one to safely operate a motor vehicle but could make one unable to safely operate an aircraft. Also, by signing such a letter, the individual's doctor would be betting his/her malpractice insurance on being right, as s/he would be the second name on the lawsuit by injured parties if his/her patient crashed a light sport plane with such a letter on record.
.......But again, Dr. Bruce may have a better handle on this than I.

The AME and third class standards were intended to be completely removed from medical certification decisionmaking. The only place where it overlaps is the person denied a third class medical, and that is because the FAA then has reason to know that 61.53 is not satisfied. IF FAA did not make SP grounding after a third class pilot denial mandatory, then FAA would be open to all sorts of lawsuits.

The level of expertise involved is that of your local medical advisor, who is normally your personal physician. Ron is correct, most docs will NOT be comfortable with the statement "OK to operate an aircraft". They typically have NO IDEA what the physiologic problems are, let alone know the difference between flgiht above and below 10,000 feet (LSA). But most will sign a statement "OK to operate a motor vehicle." After all, the patient arrive in a motor vehicle and likely drove to the doc's office. And, an LSA IS a motor vehicle, leaving the lawyers to argue the point.

There is no chief counsel opinion on the matter. And, the Federal Air Surgeon did NOT want to create a fourth class medical and has been silent on the matter since creation of the the new LSA regs.

Most LSA CFIs know to ask if a Third Class denial or failure of appeal exists....but not all!

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron is correct, most docs will NOT be comfortable with the statement "OK to operate an aircraft". They typically have NO IDEA what the physiologic problems are, let alone know the difference between flgiht above and below 10,000 feet (LSA). But most will sign a statement "OK to operate a motor vehicle." After all, the patient arrive in a motor vehicle and likely drove to the doc's office. And, an LSA IS a motor vehicle, leaving the lawyers to argue the point.

I guess the question is whether the FAA would consider a letter saying "OK to operate a motor vehicle" as constituting knowing that one's medical condition does not "make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner" if the person had one of the Federal Air Surgeon's "disqualifying" conditions:

• lDiabetes requiring medication
  
  [*]lHeart attack
  
  [*]lAngina pectoris
  
  [*]lCoronary artery disease
  
  [*]lHeart valve replacement
  
  [*]lPsychosis
  
  [*]lPersonality disorder (overt acts)
• lBipolar disorder
• lEpilepsy
  
  [*]lUnexplained disturbance of consciousness
  
  [*]lUnexplained transient loss of CNS function
  
  [*]lSubstance dependence, abuse, or misuse in last two years

Traditionally, we flight instructors trusted whether or not our students have a significant medical condition (we're talking big stuff, like a past heart attack, not whether a head cold makes them unfit to fly today) to the AME who signed their Third Class medical. Now, with LSP, we no longer have that assurance. I wonder whether LS CFI's are asking such questions before releasing LS students for solo flight, and how they're deciding based on the answers.

As for myself, after this discussion (although I'm not currently doing an LS training), I'd probably be asking any LS students I got whether they "know or have reason to know" they have one of those conditions. If they said "yes," but presented an "OK to drive a car" letter from their doctor, I do not think I'd sign such a person off for solo on the basis of that letter if the medical condition was on the Federal Air Surgeon's "disqualifying" list. Further, you can be sure I'd ask about the specific condition, and flatly refuse to sign if the person refused to disclose.

 

[kevin47881]

Here are a couple sites for LSA:

www.usjabiru.com

www.newplane.com
​

 

[Ed Guthrie]

....

• lDiabetes requiring medication

...
As for myself, after this discussion (although I'm not currently doing an LS training), I'd probably be asking any LS students I got whether they "know or have reason to know" they have one of those conditions. If they said "yes," but presented an "OK to drive a car" letter from their doctor, I do not think I'd sign such a person off for solo on the basis of that letter if the medical condition was on the Federal Air Surgeon's "disqualifying" list. Further, you can be sure I'd ask about the specific condition, and flatly refuse to sign if the person refused to disclose.

Ron, we have this conversation every few months, and, as usual, you prove you are unable to learn ("a change in behavior"). The FAA's chief doctor has stated specifically that diabetes is not disqualifying for sport pilot. You continue to ignore that fact. Most of your other statements fall in the same bin--out of date, out of facts, and totally incorrect.

Either get up to speed, Ron, or STFU.

 

[bbchien]

trusted whether or not our students have a significant medical condition (we're talking big stuff, like a past heart attack, not whether a head cold makes them unfit to fly today) to the AME who signed their Third Class medical. Now, with LSP, we no longer have that assurance. I wonder whether LS CFI's are asking such questions before releasing LS students for solo flight, and how they're deciding based on the answers...

Ron I did some consulting for a MN Crystal based flight school. They settled on the same statement from the family doc.

Bascially FAA wants NO control and therefore no liability of LSA medical because it's a liability quagmire. The docs don't want it either, esp. those with no credentials in Aviation Medicine. I don't want it either, because I do have credentials and would be endorsing a lower level standard than the currently defensible Federal Third Class standard.

When of the airmen ask, I simply tell them to have their doc write the "motor vehicle" statement and bring it to the CFI. All the CFIs ask me this as well......

Either get up to speed, Ron, or STFU.

That's a bit hard, Ed, c'mon. Ron's a great resource and like any O-3 in peacetime, knows the book inside and out. It's just that on this one, FAA chose to try to close the book......

 

[michael Killacky]

Thanks for all the replies. Bruce, I brought the conversation over to stay out of the eventual SSRI quagmire that usually results "over there". I really appreciate you answering on both sites. For the others, some great posts and thanks for the help. I really do apprecite it. I just wish I could type a little better, I'd be a lot more active. I have lotsa opinions and the princess tells me only some of them are wrong.

 

[poadeleted20]

The FAA's chief doctor has stated specifically that diabetes is not disqualifying for sport pilot.

Perhaps you are responding to something other than what I wrote above. However, if you reread my post, you'll see I did not say what you said I said.

First, I said "diabetes requireing medication," not diabetes in general. Also, my statement specifically involved someone whose diabetes required medication to control, and whose physician merely wrote "OK to operate a motor vehicle," not "OK operate a light sport aircraft." Finally, I said only that there was a question I did not think the FAA had answered, and that I would not sign off a student for light sport solo based on a letter that said only "OK to operate a motor vehicle," not "OK operate a light sport aircraft." Therefore, I suggest you check your facts and get back to us, but here are a couple of quotes from the Federal Air Surgeon to help you:

If I suspect I have a significant medical condition, but have never had an FAA medical certificate denied, suspended, or revoked, can I exercise sport pilot privileges using my current and valid driver’s license, if otherwise qualified?​

Response by the Federal Air Surgeon​

Long-standing FAA regulation, § 61.53, prohibits all pilots--those who are required to hold airman medical certificates and those who are not--from exercising privileges during periods of medical deficiency. The FAA revised § 61.53 to include under this prohibition sport pilots who use a current and valid U.S. driver’s license as medical qualification. The prohibition is also added under §§ 61.23 (c) (2) (iv) and 61.303 (b) (2) (4) for sport pilot operations.​

You should consult your private physician to determine whether you have a medical deficiency that would interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties.[emphasis added]​

Provided I otherwise qualify and have never sought FAA medical certification, am I authorized to exercise sport pilot privileges on the basis of a current and valid driver’s license if I have a chronic medical condition such as diabetes?​

Response by the Federal Air Surgeon​

You should consult your private physician to determine whether you have a medical deficiency that would interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties. You may exercise sport pilot privileges provided you are in good health, your medical condition is under control, you adhere to your physician’s recommended treatment, and you feel satisfied that you are able to conduct safe flight operations. [emphasis added]​

Doesn't seem to have any blanket statement saying "diabetes is not disqualifying for sport pilot," and I don't see anything saying "healthy enough to drive is healthy enough for light sport flying." Based on that, I stand by what I said above -- I would not sign off for solo in a light sport aircraft a person with diabetes requiring medication for control based merely on a letter from a doctor merely stating "OK to operate a motor vehicle." And while you can disagree with my personal stance as stated above, you can't call that statement anything but 100% truthful. You want to sign them off? Feel free -- it's your ticket and your assets.

In addition, after reviewing the FAS's FAQ's on the subject (see the link below), I still do not think my question above ("whether the FAA would consider a letter saying 'OK to operate a motor vehicle' as constituting knowing that one's medical condition does not 'make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner' if the person had one of the Federal Air Surgeon's 'disqualifying" conditions'") has been answered by the FAA. So, until the FAA provides an explicit answer to that question, or new written guidance saying "motor vehicle = light sport aircraft" for this purpose (or you can point me to either), my position on signing folks off for light sport solo will not change -- if you have one of the disqualifying conditions, no solo on my signature unless you have a physician's letter using the FAS's own words ("no medical deficiency that would interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties"). Does that preclude another CFI from taking a more relaxed posture? Of course not. But not me.

See http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/sportpilots/ for more information on this subject.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

That's a bit hard, Ed, c'mon. Ron's a great resource and like any O-3 in peacetime, knows the book inside and out. It's just that on this one, FAA chose to try to close the book......

Ron has been repeatedly shown the FAA's official medical statements/guidance regarding LSA, including a Q&A which specifically states that diabetes IS NOT DISQUALIFYING FOR LSA. Ron continues to spread the word to prospective LSA pilots that diabetes is disqualifying for LSA. At this point nothing is "a bit hard" with respect to telling Ron Levy that he is incompetent on this topic and should cease handing out bad advice.

You folks may think he's an assest, but anyone who scares away prospective pilots is a problem. Period. You can coddle the problem, you can ignore the problem, but it is still a problem.

 

[KennyFlys]

I'm more than an amateur here with regard to FAA regs, medical and being a CFI. But, even if diabetes is not disqualifying, isn't a CFI responsible for letting a LSA certificate candidate continue if he observes unhealthy maintenance of one's diabetes? If I knew one had diabetes but continually saw them in swings with diet and mood as a result of eating choices, that would give me cause for concern.

The last thing I'd want is a student have a diabetic seizure during a solo or after being certificated. I speak from my own observation of my mom not eating healthy while having diabetes.

Even just the recommendation a pilot candidate seek a recent medical review from their own physician in coordination with an AME would be wise in my opinion. Again, you're protecting that student and you're also protecting your own ticket to teach.

 

[steingar]

I thought LSA was a driver's license medical. No letters, no nothing. There is a catch 22 in that you can't do it if you were refused a medical, but if you just let your medical lapse you can.

 

[Areeda]

I've just started researching the Sport Pilot training stuff and this thread is an eye opener to say the least.

I hadn't even considered the instructor's responsibility to determine if the prospective pilot is fit to fly.

I was naively thinking that "self-certification" and "between the pilot and his physician" would leave me out of it. I am certainly not qualified to make any but the grossest distinctions between fit and unfit. E.G. if he keeps passing out in the cockpit and I have to bring him back and land I probably shouldn't sign him off for solo, or if he has a 3rd class medical or better my problem is his skill level.

Do current SP instructors ask medical history questions? If so what do you cover? Besides asking an AME like Dr. Bruce, how do you decide what is OK and what is not?

This is a completely new topic for me.

Joe

 

[docmirror]

Another ametuer hour guy here, and I hate posting in a testosterone charged environment, but here goes. My understanding of the SP regs say 'self-certification'. Now, I do agree that someone with an obvious medical condition that refuses to self-ground should be dealt with harshly by the CFI corps during SP training.

But, if the guy shows up, can stand on his feet, hop in and out of a LSA, control the plane, and operate the limited systems by de-facto standards he's qualified medically for the SP rating.

Now, the diabetes argument raises it's head, because lots of guys that have it want to fly, and don't want to hassle with the SI, or other hoops for the 3rd class. This is again from Capt Ron on the subject, via the FAS: You may exercise sport pilot privileges provided you are in good health, your medical condition is under control, you adhere to your physician’s recommended treatment, and you feel satisfied that you are able to conduct safe flight operations.

If it's under control through diet and exercise, or through injections three times a day, that's it. It qualifies. As long as it's "under control". So, you feel good, your blood sugar(or however it's checked) is okay, and you have a CFI(not Ron) who is comfy with your abilities, I say go fly!

As much as it pains me to quote Clinton, this is a clear case of 'don't ask, don't tell' regarding medical certification for flying via SP. Maybe the experiment will turn out badly, and maybe we'll have almost no ill effects(NPI) from the regs the way they are written. The FAA has spoken, in this case by not speaking in an effort to get the ultralight crowd under some kind of regs. The UL guys shouted mighty loud about ANY kind of medical quals, and for once the FAA seemed to listen. Enjoy it, and start training.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We recently have had three LSA planes added to the flight lines in the local DFW area FBOs. The are booked quite a lot due to the attractive rental prices. One has already been smashed by a student. There is talk that two more will be added in the region in the near future. I would think a good name-brand LSA would do well as a leaseback, given all the normal caveats that apply to any airplane leaseback. Don't expect to earn money, expect your plane to suffer greater than normal wear and tear, expect higher costs for mx, and insurance, and expect loss of personal use for it being scheduled, etc.

I'm all for the LSA/SP idea to succeed. It's one of the few bright spots of GA, and I'll be getting involved one day, so keep it simple.

 

[JimNtexas]

"But, even if diabetes is not disqualifying, isn't a CFI responsible for letting a LSA certificate candidate continue if he observes unhealthy maintenance of one's diabetes?"

When did the CFI syllabus include medical diagnosis training?

 

[docmirror]

SP student; "I wanna fly that cute little white plane".
SP CFI; "ever been denied an FAA medical certificate".
SP student; "nope".
SP CFI; "Lemme see your driver's license".
Student; "here ya go".
CFI; "how do you feel".
Student; "Fine, a bit excited".
CFI; "Been drinkin' recently"?
Student; "nope".
CFI; "Let's go fly that sucker".
Student; "Yee-ha!". (I'm in TX)

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As many of you know, LSA airplanes are few and far between on rental lines. A good local instructor suggested beginning his training in a 152, and if he decides he likes it, finding an LSA to buy and transitioning into it. Sounded really good to me, any other opinions out there?

Sounds like a great idea. Most of the "new" LSA's seem to be roughly $100K, but as someone else mentioned you could buy a J-3 or a Taylorcraft or an Ercoupe or something like that for a lot less.

Secondly, any ideas on where to find an LSA? Doesn't seem to be many on the usual sites. He's not intrested in a kit, he'd like something ready to fly. Ideas?

Well, of course there's the Cessna Skycatcher but it'll be a couple years before he could get one of those. Cirrus' SRS looks like it'll be a great little plane but again, there's a wait right now.

One of the LSA's that I think looks the best is the SportCruiser from http://www.sportaircraftworks.com/

There's an amphib called the Freedom that's really neat too: http://www.lsa-aero.com/

I also got a chance to fly the Evektor SportStar and CubCrafters' Sport Cub at OSH this year. The Sport Cub is still a cub and probably not the greatest trainer but it'll work and he'll have a cool airplane. The SportStar handled really well and was a great combination of fairly docile yet fun. It'd make an excellent trainer-to-keep type of airplane.

http://www.cubcrafters.com/
http://www.evektoramerica.com/

Whatever you do, DO NOT let him even think about the Allegro 2000. That plane takes every bad misconception about LSA's and makes it come true: Flimsy parts (especially the wingtips and prop), exposed control rods (complete with "Do not touch the red rods!" stickers), fuel tank underneath the pilot's seat, and many bicycle parts. It did NOT do well on the rental line at RYV, and I could see why - One look at it and I thought "I am NEVER going to get in one of those!" In fact, it tainted my opinion of LSA's for a while until I saw some good ones.

I know I will have to ask this question at the local FBO, but what thoughts do y'all have concerning buying a newer LSA and putting it on the line for a leaseback. Seems to me that this could be a decent option if the FBO was interested.

I think if done right it could be a very good thing. If nothing else, it'll help defray costs (again, provided it's done right). I think a lot of the flight schools out there don't "get" the whole sport pilot thing, and those that do are cashing in big-time. Aviation is suddenly being opened to a much larger market, and there are not nearly enough rental LSA's available yet so initial demand should be fairly high if there's even the slightest effort at marketing at the local level.

Sean O'Donnell, Kate's Able Flight student, is going through this process right now. PM her (skyflyer8) and get some contact info, Sean is a great guy and I'm sure he'd be happy to give your friend some information and tips.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I was naively thinking that "self-certification" and "between the pilot and his physician" would leave me out of it.

It seems to me that adding something to the solo endorsement limitations like "student self-certifies that he/she meets the medical and other requirements of FAR 61 subpart J" would keep you off the hook.

 

[tonycondon]

so it sounds to me like the CFI can attempt to play AME or can allow the pilot to self certify like the regs call for?

 

[KennyFlys]

"But, even if diabetes is not disqualifying, isn't a CFI responsible for letting a LSA certificate candidate continue if he observes unhealthy maintenance of one's diabetes?"

When did the CFI syllabus include medical diagnosis training?

The CFI isn't making a diagnosis but merely observing behavior with known information of the candidate's health. If the student appears to ignore their own health, how would they handle the aircraft after certification and carrying that passenger?

There's quite a burden placed on the CFI's judgment.

Tony, I'm all for self-certification as long as everytime I see the student they can pass the IMSAFE rule.

 

[poadeleted20]

including a Q&A which specifically states that diabetes IS NOT DISQUALIFYING FOR LSA.

Again, would you kindly show us the Federal Air Surgeon statement which says, specifically, "diabetes IS NOT DISQUALIFYING FOR LSA"? I've quoted the FAS's FAQ file above, and I can't find such a statement in it (unless you are reading between the lines). If you can point to such a statement, that would certainly end the argument, even if such a statement would appear to contradict a plain reading of the FAS's FAQ on the subject.

As for the self-certification issue, I would ask how a person whom the FAA does not yet deem capable of deciding for himself when and where he may fly (i.e., a LS student pilot) can be reasonably expected make his own determination that one of the "Big 15" medical conditions "would (not) interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties," to quote the Federal Air Surgeon, especially if his own physician isn't willing to sign his name to that exact statement. Certainly someone like Bruce Chien, who is a flight instructor, physician, and AME can probably come to a justifiable decision as to whether a student with medical condition which would disqualify him from any aviation medical certificate can safely pilot a light sport airplane.

However, lacking Bruce's medical knowledge, I don't feel I can make that determination and then defend it before the FAA or a court of law. If I were to allow that student to fly, I am afraid someone might say that I was (in Tony's words) playing AME -- after all, the only things the student knows about safe piloting are what I taught him/her, and it's too easy for the FAA or a juror to decide ex post facto that if the student thought s/he was safe to pilot a light sport plane, and turned out to be wrong, it must have been because of something I taught him/her.

That said, if the FAA says in writing that a statement from the student pilot's physician that despite one of the "Big 15" conditions, that person is "OK to operate a motor vehicle" is sufficient to meet the "would (not) interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties" test, then I'd be willing to sign off on such a person for light sport solo. But until that statement comes out, I believe signing off such a student for solo carries too much risk, and not enough return, for me to do it.

 

[kevin47881]

Speaking to diabetes and SP...as a class 3 medical holder and an insulin dependent diabetic, if I chose to discontinue the annual S.I., could I just switch to SP as there is a long history with the FAA (7 years) of good control and the fact that a medical has not been denied?
​

 

[Areeda]

Ron,

I'm not sure if you teach SP. I don't, yet. I want to learn.

I assume from your posts that do (or would) ask a prospective student about their medical history at least the 15 disqualifying conditions. What else? Perscription medications?

How do you decide if it's "under well enough control" ?

-------------------

Dr. Bruce:

What do you think a SP intructor's responsibility is in this situation?

-------------
Sounds like I have some resposibility for something I have no qualifications for. Should I just stay away from it?

Joe

 

[bbchien]

The intent of FAA was to reduce the fly/no fly decision to a doctor's letter, and inquiry about presence of final 3rd class medical denial (or not).

Unless the CFI is a doctor, asking about the 15 known disqual. diagnoses is useless. Coronary disease may not be DQ-ing- after all we do SIs all the time. We even certify heart transplants. Manic depressive disease- well the problem is even many docs aren't ready or able to run the criteria for that or the difference with a related dysthymic disorder.

Epilepsy- FIT or Faint?
You can't really even do it by what medicines they're on, Say the guy is on Neurontin, which can be quite effective for diabetic neural changes in the long extremities (pain). You look it up and it's listed for epilepsy. Now what do you do?

On and on it goes.



I would look at the note generated by the doc. If in your opinion the candidate is squirrely or just isn't consistent, you DON'T sign them off for solo. You send them to ANOTHER CFI for a reassessment. This even happens at ERAU to their "legacy" candidates. They well eventually fail, hopefully before they take somebody with them.

You can only do what you can do. Ron tries a bit harder than most. So for Ron, I say leave it to the personal physician. Take his word for it. If you're really really concerned, you can send the guy to an AME OFF of 8500-8, but that's a quagmire. The obligations of a CFI who is also an AME are mind boggling. You woulnd't happen to know personally of one, now would you?

Just use the family doc note. Several flight schools have asked me about this and are doing just that. Just put a copy of that note in next to his "he showed me his passport and is a US citizen" note, too for TSA.

Sigh.

And yes, Kevin5189S, that is EXACTLY what to do.....eventually.

 

[Dean]

Speaking to diabetes and SP...as a class 3 medical holder and an insulin dependent diabetic, if I chose to discontinue the annual S.I., could I just switch to SP as there is a long history with the FAA (7 years) of good control and the fact that a medical has not been denied?
​

I have a close friend who is an insulin dependent diabetic and is a commercial helicopter pilot/CFI for one of the largest helicopter businesses in the south. He's been flying for 10 years with no problems.

 

[Dean]

And rumor has it that there is an insulin dependent diabetic holding a second class medical with a commercial helicopter license. If the FAA has allowed one, how can they deny others if they have a good history of having no problems?

 

[poadeleted20]

And rumor has it that there is an insulin dependent diabetic holding a second class medical with a commercial helicopter license. If the FAA has allowed one, how can they deny others if they have a good history of having no problems?

Beats me (although I'm not a aeromedical expert like Dr. Bruce, who probably can explain why), but they do. So if the person's own doc won't sign off on the person flying light sport aircraft why should I bet my own professional standing and personal assets before the FAA or a court of law that medically speaking, driving = flying?

 

[bbchien]

I have a close friend who is an insulin dependent diabetic and is a commercial helicopter pilot/CFI for one of the largest helicopter businesses in the south. He's been flying for 10 years with no problems.

If you will PM me his name, and dob, I can check it out on the database. But I think your friend is in a world of hurt.

About a year ago in inquired on behalf of an ATP in the Southwest who has same. I was told flatly, "no, it's a third class program". I could be wrong but....if this guy is legal, he's got some sort of a waiver the basis of which I could not imagine.

 

[kevin47881]

Thanks Dr. Bruce. Looks like I owe you another 6 pack of Kaliber
​

 

[Henning]

If you will PM me his name, and dob, I can check it out on the database. But I think your friend is in a world of hurt.

About a year ago in inquired on behalf of an ATP in the Southwest who has same. I was told flatly, "no, it's a third class program". I could be wrong but....if this guy is legal, he's got some sort of a waiver the basis of which I could not imagine.

Even with those implanted pumps you can't get a second?

 

[Henning]

Originally Posted by KennyFlys
I'm more than an amateur here with regard to FAA regs, medical and being a CFI. But, even if diabetes is not disqualifying, isn't a CFI responsible for letting a LSA certificate candidate continue if he observes unhealthy maintenance of one's diabetes? If I knew one had diabetes but continually saw them in swings with diet and mood as a result of eating choices, that would give me cause for concern.

The last thing I'd want is a student have a diabetic seizure during a solo or after being certificated. I speak from my own observation of my mom not eating healthy while having diabetes.

Even just the recommendation a pilot candidate seek a recent medical review from their own physician in coordination with an AME would be wise in my opinion. Again, you're protecting that student and you're also protecting your own ticket to teach.

Beats me (although I'm not a aeromedical expert like Dr. Bruce, who probably can explain why), but they do. So if the person's own doc won't sign off on the person flying light sport aircraft why should I bet my own professional standing and personal assets before the FAA or a court of law that medically speaking, driving = flying?

I think you are taking a dangerous stand. Much better to say "I am not a doctor, nor do I have any medical training. The FAA does not require an AME/FAA issued medical and places the full burden of medical certification on the SP Pilot. It is nowhere in my training nor certification issued to me by the FAA to determine medical matters." The first time you do make a medical call, you lose the ability for that statement to hold up in front of a jury or judge as the case may be.

 

[bbchien]

The amazing part of the pumps: the manufacturer refuses to provide software to "glucose lock" your system. Only software that cuts the pump off if you are at a certain low level and declining.

It's a liability thing.

 

[michael Killacky]

Here's a little bit of an update for ya'. I called AOPA on Tuesday and presented the question as to whether or not my friend's condition would prvent him from Sport Pilot. Basically, as I see it, we have Doc Bruce one one side saying SP is OK. On the other hand is Ron Levy, saying that a known 3rd class disqualifying condition also disqualifies under SP. ( Do I have this summary right?). Both highly respected opinions!!

So, I laid this all out for the AOPA and they said that, pretty much, you're into uncharted waters and neither answer is right nor wrong. She was unable to give me any clear cut direction as to whether my friend should begin SP training. Clear as mud, heh.

So, for all you CFI's, If a Sport Pilot candidate asked you for training, and told you that he was on an SSRI for post traumatic stress syndrome, would you train him and sign him off for solo once you were comfortable with his flying. As an aside, the candidate exhibits no signs of any type of disoorder either physical or mental.

As a disclaimer, my friend is fully aware that I have have revealed his condition and not his identity on a public forum.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[docmirror]

Wow, this thread really took a left turn fast! We went from supposing a controlled diabetic(not from the OP, admittedly) being able to fly SP to a PTSD with SSRIs being allowed to get an SP rating.

Lots of worm cans here. I can see why the AOPA deferred judgement on this one. It's just too convoluted. Certainly this calls for a medical opinion. first, no FAA medical denied, check. Next, has a current state driver's license, check. Next, shows no obvious debilitating signs of illness(welll?). Don't know on this one. Last, find an AME, DO NOT fill out the 8500 form, and ask him for a workup on the candidate. Have him provide a statement that the candidate is or is not capable of flying an LSA type plane. Find a CFI willing to accept the challenge.

Whole new ballgame folks.

 

[poadeleted20]

[/i]I think you are taking a dangerous stand. Much better to say "I am not a doctor, nor do I have any medical training. The FAA does not require an AME/FAA issued medical and places the full burden of medical certification on the SP Pilot. It is nowhere in my training nor certification issued to me by the FAA to determine medical matters." The first time you do make a medical call, you lose the ability for that statement to hold up in front of a jury or judge as the case may be.

Exactly what I intended to say -- and further, since the only thing the LS student pilot knows about flying is what I, his flight instructor, taught him, who gets the blame if he makes a bad decision about whether a condition that is disqualifying for a medical certificate is still "safe" for light sport flying after his own doctor refuses to say that it is OK?

 

[poadeleted20]

On the other hand is Ron Levy, saying that a known 3rd class disqualifying condition also disqualifies under SP. ( Do I have this summary right?).

No. What I said is that if the person has a condition that is disqualifying for a medical certificate, and the person's personal physician refuses to agree that the condition "would (not) interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties" (to use the Federal Air Surgeon's own words), then I would not allow that person to solo on my signature unless the FAA says that "OK to operate a motor vehicle" (the wording Bruce indicated a non-aviation-savvy doctor might sign) is equivalent to "would (not) interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties."

So, I laid this all out for the AOPA and they said that, pretty much, you're into uncharted waters and neither answer is right nor wrong. She was unable to give me any clear cut direction as to whether my friend should begin SP training. Clear as mud, heh.

Exactly my concern. As has been said here before, student pilots fly on their instructor's ticket, and absent clearer guidance, it ain't worth risking my ticket to get a person with one of those 15 conditions into the air alone.

So, for all you CFI's, If a Sport Pilot candidate asked you for training, and told you that he was on an SSRI for post traumatic stress syndrome, would you train him and sign him off for solo once you were comfortable with his flying. As an aside, the candidate exhibits no signs of any type of disoorder either physical or mental.

Only if the candidate's doctor said that the condition "would (not) interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties," just as the Federal Air Surgeon said in his FAQ file. No lesser wording (e.g., "OK to operate a motor vehicle") would satisfy me since I am not qualified to make that aeromedical judgement (and neither is my student, who isn't even qualified to make much if any aviation judgement).

 

[KennyFlys]

I threw my AME a question on this scenario the other morning. He's a vascular surgeon who quit to fly charter part-time and do aeromedical exams part-time. He's the only AME I saw in the area who had an ATP certificate.

On my scenario as a CFI, he said I'd be observing him for just a small part of his life and that's far from a fair assessment. But, if the question of diabetes came up with regard to qualifying for a Third Class Medical, he'd say have the student come see him for a review.

As long as a Form 8500 isn't completed, it's merely a consultation between a physician and his patient and nothing needs to be reported to the FAA. That would allow an opportunity to determine if a waiver may be obtained for a Third Class before putting the question to the FAA and ruining the chances for an LSA ticket.

Diet-controlled diabetes is pretty common and easy to pass. Pill-controlled brings up more questions but as long as there's a positive history of control, a waiver should be no problem. He did tell me there are only a few hundred insulin dependent pilots and all of them are only Third Class Medicals. That falls in line with what Dr. Bruce is saying above.

So, if you have a student on the edge between obtaining a Third Class or going with LSA, a consultation with an AME without involving the 8500 could be the way to go without ruining the chance for even an LSA ticket.

Dr. Bruce, do you agree with that idea?

 

[Henning]

who gets the blame if he makes a bad decision about whether a condition that is disqualifying for a medical certificate is still "safe" for light sport flying after his own doctor refuses to say that it is OK?

A doctor not say "It's Ok" is not synonimous with the doctor saying "It's Not OK". If the Doctor doesn't know enough to stop it, how do you? And thats' where you get yourself into multiple binds, because the first time you do that, you take on the roll of Medical Expert. Now, three students down the line, the one you don't refuse crashes and burns and medical considerations are found, you are being sued for 10 times your insurance policy value and the plaintiffs attorney turns to you and says "Well, if you're not a medical expert, then why did you refuse to train Mr. XXX and Mr. YYY back in.... due to their medical condition which no doctor disqualified them for either?" ...and the jury just hung you.

You are buying problems you don't want. If a doctor wants to disqualify them, let the doctor disqualify them. A lack of an approval certificate is not a disqualification certificate. Don't take on rolls that aren't in your pervue.

 

[N621j]

Here's the problem that I see. There are a group of pilots that are very knowledgable and experienced who know the regulations inside out and backwards. The sport pilot and LSA regs, in many many areas, are vastly different and give much more freedom to pilots and manufacturers. The FAA has taken a hands off approach, and by design will stay out of the fray. Do standard certification requirements have any bearing on LSA aircraft? No. Is the FAA involved when you want to modify your LSA down the road? No. Does the FAA dictate what equipment you can put in your LSA? No. Why would standard medical requirements have any relation to a SP? If a CFI knowingly sends a solo student off in a plane with a non-certified engine, non-certified instruments and with major modifications done without any input from the FAA, is the CFI liable because none of the standard certification or airworthiness requirements have been met? Accept the regs for what they are, an attempt to make a place for pilots to fly relatively simple aircraft safely in an environment largely free of the mountains of regulations imposed in more traditional flight.