Set up for tailwind landing

benyflyguy

benyflyguy

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benyflyguy
I’m planning on going into S37 tomorrow and the runway is favored 28 in light winds as it sloped. So I got to thinking, I might need to make a tailwind landing. I kinda went through my steps and thought process. Now I have done only a few in my IFR training. For private i never did them.
The first step I usually do is avoid them! But with a light tail 4-5 kts I might have to do it. I am well aware they can chew up runway. This place is 2700 (not my usual 5000). Can’t fly in super Low as there is public road right behind threshold. Tempting to use more flaps and power and bring myself down a bit steeper. But full flaps with a tail I think can be trouble
So I’m thinking I just need to be real tight about it. Watch my airspeed. And just stick with 20deg of flaps. In the Am winds should be light
I’m flying a 182 with fam and half fuel.
I’m I overthinking it. Chances are it winds will be favorable. But luck favors the prepared.
 
You're overthinking it. Don't land with a tailwind. Use full flaps. 2700 is no big deal. Don't forget to eat at Joni's.
 
I'm not sure why you'd avoid full flaps with a tailwind at all, much less one that light. Watch your airspeed is the main thing.
 
The airplane won't know there's a tailwind until you touch down. A few mph isn't something I'd be concerned about. I take a mild downwinds all the time if the approach favors it.
 
GeorgeC said:
You're overthinking it. Don't land with a tailwind. Use full flaps. 2700 is no big deal. Don't forget to eat at Joni's.
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lol. taking family to Dutch wonderland for afternoon and might check joni’s out before heading up. I always fly on a full stomach !
 
benyflyguy said:
Tempting to use more flaps and power and bring myself down a bit steeper. But full flaps with a tail I think can be trouble
So I’m thinking I just need to be real tight about it. Watch my airspeed. And just stick with 20deg of flaps. In the Am winds should be light
I’m flying a 182 with fam and half fuel.
I’m I overthinking it. Chances are it winds will be favorable. But luck favors the prepared.
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Sorry, what? If you are landing with a tailwind, you should use a short-field technique, including full flaps and the approach speed specified in the POH. Otherwise you are just compounding the problem exponentially.
 
dmspilot said:
Sorry, what? If you are landing with a tailwind, you should use a short-field technique, including full flaps and the approach speed specified in the POH. Otherwise you are just compounding the problem exponentially.
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Ok thank I can do and have practiced short field landings. I just don’t correlate it with a tailwind landing. I do think I’m overthinking it.
I’ve been working so hard on setting my landings to really have a nice gradual flare with stall horn blaring and touching down so softly. I’ve had a good run.
I forgot to mention this is the first time my wife has agreed that flying is a better idea and this is her first flight with me for a trip. 25 min flight vs 2 hour drive. Hard not to fly ! So nothing can go wrong!!
 
@benyflyguy some short fields you don't try for a greaser because of length, etc. You get it on the ground, brake etc and get the plane stopped. And the proper technique is written in your POH, a short field landing most likely with full flaps. A C182 can handle it with ease. You could always go up with a CFI and review it if you're apprehensive about performing it too.
 
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benyflyguy said:
I’m planning on going into S37 tomorrow and the runway is favored 28 in light winds as it sloped. So I got to thinking, I might need to make a tailwind landing. I kinda went through my steps and thought process. Now I have done only a few in my IFR training. For private i never did them.
The first step I usually do is avoid them! But with a light tail 4-5 kts I might have to do it. I am well aware they can chew up runway. This place is 2700 (not my usual 5000). Can’t fly in super Low as there is public road right behind threshold. Tempting to use more flaps and power and bring myself down a bit steeper. But full flaps with a tail I think can be trouble
So I’m thinking I just need to be real tight about it. Watch my airspeed. And just stick with 20deg of flaps. In the Am winds should be light
I’m flying a 182 with fam and half fuel.
I’m I overthinking it. Chances are it winds will be favorable. But luck favors the prepared.
Click to expand...

Never did them in training. Passengers. 2700 when your used to much more. Why am I having ‘negative waves.’ Probably no big thang, you expect the winds to be light. You’ll get lots of good techniques and advice here. I would advise you to have the ‘every approach is to a go around until proven otherwise’ mindset. Don’t let it be a surprise.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Make sure you ain’t gonna be worrying about gas if you decide you should decide to go somewhere else if you decide to after a couple tries
 
It's important to be on speed and on glidepath for the runway, and to have a predetermined point on the runway where you'll be on the ground and no later. Not the time to worry too much about stretching it out and kissing the runway, get it on and start braking, no need to do a carrier landing either though.
 
I wouldn’t suggest a downwind landing EVER, but if it’s an absolute must than do it, just be vigilant of your airspeed. If it’s only a few knots you’ll barely notice much of a difference anyway.

As @mscard88 said, as much as we love to kiss the earth on every landing, there are times when it’s just not feasible. Exercise your short field techniques and get her on the ground. My home base is 3,000’ so 2,700’ isn’t much less. A normal approach should be doable unless terrain doesn’t allow.
 
luvflyin said:
Never did them in training. Passengers. 2700 when your used to much more. Why am I having ‘negative waves.’ Probably no big thang, you expect the winds to be light. You’ll get lots of good techniques and advice here. I would advise you to have the ‘every approach is to a go around until proven otherwise’ mindset. Don’t let it be a surprise.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Make sure you ain’t gonna be worrying about gas if you decide you should decide to go somewhere else if you decide to after a couple tries
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I never did them for my ppl. We have done a few in my IFR training and one recently. I have already practiced near full wb as well quite a bit. I have a great alternate 6 miles away with 7000’
Agree approach with go around in mind at all times. If it is feeing right, put her down.
 
benyflyguy said:
I never did them for my ppl. We have done a few in my IFR training and one recently. I have already practiced near full wb as well quite a bit. I have a great alternate 6 miles away with 7000’
Agree approach with go around in mind at all times. If it is feeing right, put her down.
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Cool. Have fun. What’s Dutch wonderland?
 
luvflyin said:
Cool. Have fun. What’s Dutch wonderland?
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It’s an amusement park. Smaller. Competes with Hershey but is a bit smaller kid oriented. I have a 7 and 9 yo. Grew up in that area and is a focal point for family to meet, brother fam two hour drive, sister fam 2 hour drive..me 25 min flight ;););)
 
I still need to take my kids there, that and the train museum.
 
GeorgeC said:
I still need to take my kids there, that and the train museum.
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They have a steam train in the likeness of Thomas that tours there from time to time. Stasburg is very nice day.
 
Why experiment with something that you are not accustomed to do with your wife on board? You should be falling all over yourself to make the flight as normal as possible. Land into the wind, accept the slope.

Bob
 
The airplane won’t know it’s a tailwind, your ASI won’t care, but your ground speed will be faster, just bring it in at the proper speed for your weight and configuration.

Personally I don’t think you’ve really made a good case for not landing the other runway though, I’ve made plenty of tailwind landings (actually teach them pre solo), but it’s normally reserved for one way in one way out type strips.
 
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2700ft is cake in a 182. Practice landing with 30-40º. I just feel it out and add more flaps if necessary
 
Don’t lose sight of why downwind is recommended in light winds; slope. I assume 27 slopes up which is good relative to hitting your spot and shortening your landing roll.

My home field (8NC8) is grass, sloped and wind shaded. It’s not a one way strip by any means but the slope make downhill takeoffs on 32 and upslope landings preferred up to a downwind component of say 10knots. I’ve watched people miss landings because they insisted on landing upwind and down slope, when a downwind upslope landing is significantly easier.

We have tall trees on the upslope runway. It was clear to me that if you came over the trees with minimal clearance and 1.3 Vs plus/minus 10 knots, and chopped the throttle, it was impossible to land long no matter what the tailwind might be (wind gradient is a factor as well).

Nothing makes it easier to hit your spot and minimize your roll than an upslope.

You are overthinking it but you may be under thinking the distraction factor of a passenger, given the anxiety you’ve already expressed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Ryanb said:
I wouldn’t suggest a downwind landing EVER, but if it’s an absolute must than do it, just be vigilant of your airspeed. If it’s only a few knots you’ll barely notice much of a difference anyway.

As @mscard88 said, as much as we love to kiss the earth on every landing, there are times when it’s just not feasible. Exercise your short field techniques and get her on the ground. My home base is 3,000’ so 2,700’ isn’t much less. A normal approach should be doable unless terrain doesn’t allow.
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Strange...out west, there are a number of "one way" airports, where you may not have the option, that a tailwind landing may be the only. Wind speed is definitely a limiting factor. I try to practice tailwind/quartering tailwind as long as the winds are 10 are less. Anything greater, someplace else or land normally into the wind. Why? Because I know there will be times there won't be an option.
 
murphey said:
Strange...out west, there are a number of "one way" airports, where you may not have the option, that a tailwind landing may be the only. Wind speed is definitely a limiting factor. I try to practice tailwind/quartering tailwind as long as the winds are 10 are less. Anything greater, someplace else or land normally into the wind. Why? Because I know there will be times there won't be an option.
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Pretty much exactly what I said, no?
 
Land into the wind. I have been into Smoketown many times and the grade is barely noticeable. Would never consider it a factor. Take that 182 out and play. 2700’ is at least twice but more like three times what she needs.
 
swingwing said:
Land into the wind. I have been into Smoketown many times and the grade is barely noticeable. Would never consider it a factor. Take that 182 out and play. 2700’ is at least twice but more like three times what she needs.
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This is probably what I should have asked first. It’s good to hear the slope is not really a concern. I’ll fly over and see what the wind sock sayy and LNS metar!
 
benyflyguy said:
This is probably what I should have asked first. It’s good to hear the slope is not really a concern. I’ll fly over and see what the wind sock sayy and LNS metar!
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How big is the slope? What’s the surface?

There definitely is a cross over point between when you’d accept the tail wind vs the slope, but in a 182 you shouldn’t be chewing up much runway if you can hit your spot with full flaps, thus the normal short field techniques plus whatever percentage the slope adds, can be better landing into the wind.

Once it gets too steep or there’s an obstacle at one end that can’t be outclimbed, then it becomes a “one way” runway as @murphey mentioned. We have some here.

All depends on the tailwind and the angle of the slope and what shape your brakes and tires are in, plus what kind of surface it is.

Land slow into the wind almost always beats landing downwind, but there’s exceptions.
 
Looks like it’s 2750 x 50, runway 10 has a displaced threshold for both a pole and a public road 9’ from the start of the runway, and it has a 1.3% slope, from the available info.

Runway 10 approach slope is 31:1 to the displaced threshold over the obstacle, which I assume is the “pole” listed in the AF/D.

Sounds like you need a steep approach and slow to do Runway 10, just going by the published data.

I bet a lot of people screw that up in light headwinds and have gone off the end in things that can’t land in 2750’ going downhill as the runway keeps “dropping away from them” in the flare and they burn up half the runway, still flying.

Thus... the hint to use the uphill direction in light winds.
 
At 95F, pressure altitude 3000 ft and 4.5 KTS headwind, a 182 has a ~1450 ft over a 50 ft obstacle distance. Even if you fly a terrible short field approach, cross the threshold at 65 KIAS and 50 ft agl, you have a +50% safety margin.
 
Ryanb said:
I wouldn’t suggest a downwind landing EVER, but if it’s an absolute must than do it, just be vigilant of your airspeed.
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I bring students to a nice long runway when winds are 5 - 10 it’s and show them a tailwind landing. They are usually shocked with how much runway is used up before that plane even wants to touchdown.
 
Clip4 said:
At 95F, pressure altitude 3000 ft and 4.5 KTS headwind, a 182 has a ~1450 ft over a 50 ft obstacle distance. Even if you fly a terrible short field approach, cross the threshold at 65 KIAS and 50 ft agl, you have a +50% safety margin.
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I assume that’s without adding the percentage required by the POH for the slope.

It’s not going to be 50% with that added, but it won’t be particularly difficult IF you don’t float half the runway while the ground drops away from you.

Most folks teach in that case to have a “must be on the ground by” point and if not, go around.

Assuming there’s standard runway markings, one wouldn’t even have to “eyeball” it, just pick the spot by the paint line distances or the 1000’ it piblished distance to the touchdown zone marker if one is available.

Otherwise eyeball it and make sure the wheels are on the ground on a runway sloped downhill before the planned spot and don’t spare the brakes.

The book number for a short field assumes your brakes and tires are working as well as they did the day they left the factory... and the surface is decent or corrected for, too.

That runway says it’s good asphalt so surface doesn’t look like it’d be a modifier.
 
murphey said:
Strange...out west, there are a number of "one way" airports, where you may not have the option, that a tailwind landing may be the only. Wind speed is definitely a limiting factor. I try to practice tailwind/quartering tailwind as long as the winds are 10 are less. Anything greater, someplace else or land normally into the wind. Why? Because I know there will be times there won't be an option.
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It occurs to me that typical eastern US flight conditions are on average different than typical western conditions. Wind gradient due to obstructions and density altitude being two big ones.

I know that I’m always thinking eastern and southeastern US ‘typical’ conditions...
 
I think it’s already been said, tailwind is not going to affect aircraft performance it just means the ground will be moving past faster. Really no different than landing in a high density altitude situation.
 
Bill Watson said:
It occurs to me that typical eastern US flight conditions are on average different than typical western conditions. Wind gradient due to obstructions and density altitude being two big ones.

I know that I’m always thinking eastern and southeastern US ‘typical’ conditions...
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Lots easier to operate on the east coast.
 
In your effort to “grease it” and impress your wife and your own ego, don’t get so focused that you force the landing. If it doesn’t look right, GO AROUND and reevaluate your options. The winds may not be light when you get there (imagine that. An incorrect forecast. :rolleyes:) an up slope landing might be the better choice. And with 2700’ an upslope will help slow you down on rollout, with minimal (if any) braking. (My 2 cents)
 
Clip4 said:
At 95F, pressure altitude 3000 ft and 4.5 KTS headwind, a 182 has a ~1450 ft over a 50 ft obstacle distance. Even if you fly a terrible short field approach, cross the threshold at 65 KIAS and 50 ft agl, you have a +50% safety margin.
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Remember that it's a 50% safety margin over "book" numbers with a "book" airplane using, probably most importantly, "book" technique. I've flown with a lot of pilots who say "I always give myself a 50% safety margin," most of whom,fortunately, never operate off of anything less than 5000 feet because their technique consistently overruns their "50% safety margin".

Always best to know how your takeoffs and landings compare to the book numbers, and then add whatever safety margin you desire to that.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Remember that it's a 50% safety margin over "book" numbers with a "book" airplane using, probably most importantly, "book" technique. I've flown with a lot of pilots who say "I always give myself a 50% safety margin," most of whom,fortunately, never operate off of anything less than 5000 feet because their technique consistently overruns their "50% safety margin".

Always best to know how your takeoffs and landings compare to the book numbers, and then add whatever safety margin you desire to that.
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I calculated a +50% safety margin using a DA far greater that what he was going to experiance and a really bad technique. If you want book, he has a +80% safety margin.
 
Clip4 said:
I calculated a +50% safety margin using a DA far greater that what he was going to experiance and a really bad technique. If you want book, he has a +80% safety margin.
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Well, that's kinda my point...we don't know how his technique compares to book, so any safety margin calculation is pretty much useless.
 
Brakes fail too. Best to know they’re working early. Get on ‘em in that scenario and make sure before there’s not enough length for a go around.

It’s just a “max performance” landing. Everyone SHOULD be able to do one, but a man has to know his limitations.

If the equipment and human are up to it, that airport looks infinitely “do-able” in a heavy Skylane. The machine will certainly do it.
 
Everyone here is focusing on the length, but at half the length, I would hazard a guess it’s also narrower than the OP is used to. That can really mess with your sight picture and make a short field landing even more challenging.
 
Post flight analysis.

Trip down great. Smooth. Decreased vis for haze not a factor. Kid threw up some water as I was overflying field and establishing on downwind. Sorta rushed my legs and got down a little fast and steep. Didn’t like the picture so just did go around!!! Second attempt was good enough. Short field landing technique is not a pretty greaser but landed safely. And with plenty of space to stop at the first turn off. You do stop quickly going up hill! ( taking off downhill was a delight, I felt like I was on a catapult)

Weather in PA was marred with airmass t-storms all day. Little and big cells just popping and burning out. Planned on heading back to hzl by 2 but weather wasn’t going to agree in hzl. By 4 the route was porked. Fortunately we had Dutch wonderland to chill and spend a lot of time. And my wife found the Tanger outlets as a way to burn some time and make up the wb for the fuel I burned coming down.

Today’s take home lesson was being patient with the weather. Easily could have seen it getting bad and try to rush and get caught. Instead hung out and waiting and watched. Ended up taking off and headed east to miss some dissapating cells and turn north when looked clear.

Back at hzl gave my fam the greaser I was looking for.

Overall great day. First time getting family
In plane and on a trip. Victory.
 
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