Service weapon recomendations for law enforcement [NA]

jason

jason

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Jason W (FlyNE)
My younger brother has been hired on with the local police department. He starts academy in about 6 weeks. He's been looking around trying to pick out his service weapon.

I told him I knew where I could find a good number of gun people and LEOs. What say you? Any recomendations for him? He currently has his eye on a Glock .45.

EDIT: Also, does anybody know of any good web boards for LEOs? Like a PoA for cops? :)
 
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The model 21 or the 37?

I like the grips on the 37 better.

What does the police force he is going to working for say as it pertains to weapon choices? Do they only authorize certain types, brands, calibers, etc?
 
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smigaldi said:
The model 21 or the 37?

I like the grips on the 37 better.
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I asked him and he wasn't totally sure. I have a feeling it was the 37. He's a big guy (6' 6" - 270 lbs.) with big hands. So I suppose that we should take that into consideration.
 
Doesn't the department specify acceptable weapons?

We had a reasonable choice of handguns at my agency, as long as they were 9MM. I think that .45 is now acceptable too. Subguns and long guns were specified, and were issued, not personal weapons.
 
I don't consider myself an expert, but I think I'd look for something in a .40 ACP over a .45.

What fits/feels good to one can vary a lot. He should find someone with a variety and try as many as he can before he buys.


Trapper John
 
Most departments select the gun or range of guns for you. Make sure he checks what is on the approved list.
 
You want the same weapon as the rest of the force on the street. That way, any other cop can toss you a clip if you need it. The military figured that out centuries ago -- the Russians even chambered their weapons so they could use NATO ammo but we couldn't use theirs.
 
Model 38 S&W :D It worked for me the first few years.

That aside, I am a big fan of the .45 ACP round. If you need more than eight or nine rounds in a shooting incident, you should have had your long gun in the first place :yikes:

I have used the Glock and the Sig Sauer chambered in .45ACP. I like both of them, though even after ten years carrying the Sig everyday (due to policy) I am still partial to the Glock. At least for work. As for the submodels of those brands, he should simply hold them both, dry fire a while, maybe take them on the range and see which ones fit his hand.
 
What Ron says definitely applies to uniformed officers - I've never seen a department that didn't specify and issue those guys their sidearms, for the reason Ron mentions. But if it's a very small force it may not be an issue. Still, even for the tiny department, there's usually a list of acceptable weapons, just for legal/liability reasons.
 
TMetzinger said:
Doesn't the department specify acceptable weapons?

We had a reasonable choice of handguns at my agency, as long as they were 9MM. I think that .45 is now acceptable too. Subguns and long guns were specified, and were issued, not personal weapons.
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I imagine there are, Tim. He's not yet totally familiar with their requirements. He just got hired on and his class isn't even full yet, so I'm sure he hasn't asked all of the relevant questions. Right now he thinks that they prefer a .45 over a 9mm. I'm asking this question on his behalf so that he can go out and browse. He'll verify compliance before he actually buys anything.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Model 38 S&W :D It worked for me the first few years.

That aside, I am a big fan of the .45 ACP round. If you need more than eight or nine rounds in a shooting incident, you should have had your long gun in the first place :yikes:

I have used the Glock and the Sig Sauer chambered in .45ACP. I like both of them, though even after ten years carrying the Sig everyday (due to policy) I am still partial to the Glock. At least for work. As for the submodels of those brands, he should simply hold them both, dry fire a while, maybe take them on the range and see which ones fit his hand.
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I carried the M9 in the military, and kept it as my first handgun. Switched to a Sig P239 later, and I like it, but I'm _still_ a little uncomfortable with the lack of a positive mechanical safety. I understand the philosophy, and I know that the trigger must be positively engaged for the weapon to fire, but still.... On the other hand, I'm much more aware of the condition of this weapon just because of the fact that there's no "safety".
 
TMetzinger said:
What Ron says definitely applies to uniformed officers - I've never seen a department that didn't specify and issue those guys their sidearms, for the reason Ron mentions. But if it's a very small force it may not be an issue. Still, even for the tiny department, there's usually a list of acceptable weapons, just for legal/liability reasons.
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Our local LEOs have a list of acceptable weapons to pick form and then are given a check to obtain one from a local gun shop
 
TMetzinger said:
I carried the M9 in the military, and kept it as my first handgun. Switched to a Sig P239 later, and I like it, but I'm _still_ a little uncomfortable with the lack of a positive mechanical safety. I understand the philosophy, and I know that the trigger must be positively engaged for the weapon to fire, but still.... On the other hand, I'm much more aware of the condition of this weapon just because of the fact that there's no "safety".
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I think a lot of ex-military and old school types (though I suppose if I carried a revolver I am "old school - sigh) feel that way about the safety. OTOH, folks like me who never carried a handgun with a manual safety don't have anything to miss.

Nineteen years without a AD *Knocks on wood*
 
I'm a big fan of Glocks. I have a Glock 30, but mostly as a concealed carry (it's the subcompact double stack .45 ACP variant). It also happens to be comfortable for me given my scrawny nature. Given the fact that your brother is a big guy, he might be better off with the full-sized .45 ACP (think it's a 21?). My cube mate just recommended an XD, he said he loves his.

I like the .45 ACP round a lot. I have a Browning Hi-Power (9mm), which is also a great gun, but all my holsers are for the Glock for a reason.

The best thing for him to probably do is try out a bunch of guns, see which one fits the best for him and also works in terms of ammo size.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm a big fan of Glocks. I have a Glock 30, but mostly as a concealed carry (it's the subcompact double stack .45 ACP variant). It also happens to be comfortable for me given my scrawny nature. Given the fact that your brother is a big guy, he might be better off with the full-sized .45 ACP (think it's a 21?). My cube mate just recommended an XD, he said he loves his.
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The 21 is slightly bigger than the 37. The grips on the 37 are contoured for three fingers whihc I think makes it a better feel. But we all have different hads. Since I have very little feeling in my fingers from an old injury things do feel very strange to me and I really like it when stuff feels secure ion my hands. So it is always best to go try out the various models.
 
BTW, I was under the impression that police academies do not allow cadets to pick out and bring their own weapons. It is my understanding that they issue you what they want you to have for training, and don't look kindly on those who show up with their own gun (especially if it's loaded). After training, when you go to your department, things may change. Therefore, I think the best option is for young brother to walk into training with everything, and only the things, on the list of stuff they tell you to bring with you. Once he's gone through the academy training, he'll have a better idea of what sidearms may suit him best, as well as what his department's policies are.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, I was under the impression that police academies do not allow cadets to pick out and bring their own weapons. It is my understanding that they issue you what they want you to have for training, and don't look kindly on those who show up with their own gun (especially if it's loaded). After training, when you go to your department, things may change. Therefore, I think the best option is for young brother to walk into training with everything, and only the things, on the list of stuff they tell you to bring with you. Once he's gone through the academy training, he'll have a better idea of what sidearms may suit him best, as well as what his department's policies are.
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Thanks for the advice, Ron. I concur. As I've said, this discussion is very preliminary and very premature. He's going to do more research before finalizing and purchasing his service weapon. He's not yet eligible for whatever assistance they'd give him anyway. I just knew that we had a number of LEOs on the board and they'd have an opinion, even if it was limited to what was allowed by their department. In the end, he's browsing and I wanted to help him narrow his list...even if it is just for fun at the moment. The department will obviously have the final say.
 
Ron Levy said:
You want the same weapon as the rest of the force on the street. That way, any other cop can toss you a clip if you need it. The military figured that out centuries ago -- the Russians even chambered their weapons so they could use NATO ammo but we couldn't use theirs.
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Kind of like their 82 mm mortar? Could fire our 81 mm rounds, but not the other way around.
 
FlyNE said:
In the end, he's browsing and I wanted to help him narrow his list...even if it is just for fun at the moment. The department will obviously have the final say.
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Not only will the department have the final say, they will TELL him exactly what he will buy. There will be no browsing, nor likely any "list". Departments like uniformity.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, I was under the impression that police academies do not allow cadets to pick out and bring their own weapons. It is my understanding that they issue you what they want you to have for training, and don't look kindly on those who show up with their own gun (especially if it's loaded). After training, when you go to your department, things may change. Therefore, I think the best option is for young brother to walk into training with everything, and only the things, on the list of stuff they tell you to bring with you. Once he's gone through the academy training, he'll have a better idea of what sidearms may suit him best, as well as what his department's policies are.
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Anthony said:
Not only will the department have the final say, they will TELL him exactly what he will buy. There will be no browsing, nor likely any "list". Departments like uniformity.
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Not necessarily. Small rural and suburban departments often give a lot of flexibility in this area...and state POST academies see a wide variety of recruits come through from many different departments with a decent variety of handguns that they must be trained on. It is entirely possible that he will have a choice of not only caliber and model, but brand. But he should find out before he invests :smile:
 
Well put Bob.
As others have stated, it is very department and academy specific as to what they want and allow. At the academy especially, as Ron stated I would only bring what they tell you too and ONLY that to start with. You can always buy things later.
Depending on which academy it is, some are run like a military boot camp, getting on the bad side the first day is not a good thing.
Many moons ago when I was an LEO, you had to qualify with a revolver before you were even allowed to TRY and qual with a semi.
Good luck to him and keep us posted.

Mark B.
 
Seeing Roger's post made me think of one more thing. Tell him to try MANY different weapons before he buys one.
Just because it shoots nice, it can be a REAL PAIN to sit in a car with and if it is heavy??? That gets OLD really fast when you are wearing it 8-20 hours a day.
Most guys (including me) when they first went on the street they had ALL kinds of stuff on their duty belt. Within a few months, you are complaining because you HAVE to carry so much stuff because your hips bother you so much from all the weight.
I went through probably 5 or 6 different duty weapons before I found one that I was happy with. But there was always a "rookie" to sell the old one to. LOL

Mark B
 
I agree that the agency will most likely either issue him a specific duty weapon, or give him a list of acceptable officer-owned weapons. I wouldn't go out an buy anything until after he's checked with his range officer. Odds are they won't even discuss what weapons they should/should not be carrying on or off duty until well in to the academy and at the point of starting firearms training. In my experience that has been well past the half way point of the academy.

If he wants to start shopping for off duty weapons though, tell him to find a range that lets you try out several house guns to get a feel for what fits well in his hands.

Every agency is going to be very different on firearms policies. As a street cop, my agency initially issued us weapons and gave us the option of purchasing those weapons through the dept if we wanted too, but that was our only choice of weapon to carry. They ran in to some issues with some officers not being able to properly fire the one model issued though. Mostly some of the smaller framed officers..women primarily, but some of the smaller guys had problems as well. They eventually went to an acceptable list of officer owned weapons or the choice of carrying the department issued weapon. I honestly have no idea what they even issue these days.

My current agency doesn't issue weapons, and I've developed an acceptable list, but it's mostly of acceptable calibers, not specific models per se (although there is the language "upon approval of the Chief Law Enforcement Officer" written in to the policy to make sure some goof ball doesn't show up at qualification with an Uzi to carry on duty :nono: :rolleyes:).

Also, does anybody know of any good web boards for LEOs? Like a PoA for cops?
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None anywhere near the PoA participation level. Policeone.com has both public and secured forums. The secured forums are LEO only and they verify employment before giving access. Lots of good info on the resource pages for verified users though.

Policemag.com has forums, but their total posts in a year probably isn't equal to what PoA has in a day or two. Not sure what other info they have on the site though, because you have to subscribe to Police Magazine to get access to most of it, and I let my subscription lapse a long time ago.
 
One other note: If he has a choice, he should go to his friendly neighborhood gun store and handle every last one on the list. Above all, the gun must feel good in his hands for him to shoot well with it. It's hard to get a gun that won't be reliable and accurate these days as long as he sticks to the name brands, so it comes down to the other factors.

There are perennial arguments about capacity vs. stopping power. His department has probably made that choice for him, but if not, I'd recommend anything but a 9mm Parabellum pistol. That the Europeans think that's a high power weapon shows how little they know about guns. I'm a fan of .40 S&W, but I respect those who make the trade (a bit more punch, a bit less capacity) for a .45 ACP.
 
FlyNE said:
My younger brother has been hired on with the local police department. He starts academy in about 6 weeks. He's been looking around trying to pick out his service weapon.
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The first piece of advice I would offer to anyone starting out in LE is that rather than looking for a "service weapon", he should be looking for "service weapons".

By that, I mean he should be planning on also having a backup gun in addition to his primary duty weapon. The fastest reload is usually a backup.

One nice thing about Glocks is that you can use the magazines from the full size guns in the mid-size and compact guns, which is a very nice feature.

The Glock 21 .45 ACP magazines fit in a Glock 30, for example. The Glock 22 .40 cal magazines fit in a Glock 23 and a Glock 27. I and a lot of people I know who really depend on pistols like Glocks.

There are a lot of flavors out there, however, and if one sticks to a major name gun, one should have excellent reliability. There are times you can scrimp. Purchasing duty guns is not one of those times.

Two pieces of unsolicited advice: Night sights. Have him mount them on every gun he carries on duty. Worth every penny of their cost. Pistol mounted lights are very handy on the main gun, too.

As a cop, you can not ever have too many guns, knives, or flashlights on you. Murphy rides along on every shift.
 
RogerT said:
Is he in Lincoln? I've got an HK 9mm he's welcome to shoot if he's
just getting an idea.
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Yes, he just got hired on in Lincoln. I'll let him know of your offer. I wouldn't be surprised it he took you up on it. It would probably be good for him to get some range time in before academy starts.

Thanks!
 
smigaldi said:
Glock (Austrian), SIG SAUER (Swiss), Heckler & Koch (German), Mauser (German) are these some of the gun manufactures of Europe that know little about guns?
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Not to mention Beretta (Italy) the oldest gun manufacturer in the world, CZ (Czech Republic), FN (Belgium), Tikka and Seiko (Sweden) among others.
 
Anthony said:
Not to mention Beretta (Italy) the oldest gun manufacturer in the world, CZ (Czech Republic), FN (Belgium), Tikka and Seiko (Sweden) among others.
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Yeah, thanks I was just thinking off the top of my head.

I think Jay was being more than a little unfair and maybe letting some of his personal bias towards things of a European nature in on that post. Now the parabellum is an underpowered gun to be sure but it is no reason to condem European gun smiths. Us gun smiths have had their share of gun-lemmons. I did not even get into some of the world class shotguns the Europeans have made. They make some of the best ever.
 
smigaldi said:
I think Jay was being more than a little unfair and maybe letting some of his personal bias towards things of a European nature in on that post. Now the parabellum is an underpowered gun to be sure but it is no reason to condem European gun smiths. Us gun smiths have had their share of gun-lemmons. I did not even get into some of the world class shotguns the Europeans have made. They make some of the best ever.
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I wasn't condemning European gunsmiths; as you note, they make fine weapons. (My carry pistol is a Glock 27.) There are far more Europeans who don't know much about guns, but pretend to; that's how the 9mm Parabellum became the NATO standard. Europeans in general don't know much about guns, even many of the folks who are supposed to.
 
Nothing wrong with a 9MM in a modern JHP +P round. The gun culture in Europe has declined in the past 50+ years due to all the silly restrictions and gun bans. A few generations have been brainwashed and really don't know what shooting is all about. Except for the Swiss of course.
 
Anthony said:
Nothing wrong with a 9MM in a modern JHP +P round.
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Colonel Jeff Cooper had it right when he invented the power factor for IPSC. (Aside: I've heard it said that IPSC shooting is the most fun you can have with your clothes on. It's certainly up there on the scale, even if it doesn't involve an airplane.) There's a reason for the division between major and minor power factor, and the scoring advantage to major power factor, and especially that no 9mm load, even if it technically makes major, will be counted that way: getting up to reasonable power requires chamber pressures that are just too high.

The gun culture in Europe has declined in the past 50+ years due to all the silly restrictions and gun bans. A few generations have been brainwashed and really don't know what shooting is all about. Except for the Swiss of course.
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Yeah. The current Europeans generally just don't get it. I've never understood that, especially when they have the sterling example of the Swiss right in front of them.
 
Ron Levy said:
You want the same weapon as the rest of the force on the street. That way, any other cop can toss you a clip if you need it. The military figured that out centuries ago -- the Russians even chambered their weapons so they could use NATO ammo but we couldn't use theirs.
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Amazing insight Ron!

I am a former full-time officer and am going back into the Reserves.

Trust me, you want what the majority of officers are using if at all possible. With that said however make sure it FITS correctly in his hands. Worry less about model/caliber than fit.

This is hard to explain, but he will get as close to that weapon as his wife/girlfriend. He will wear it, clean it, shoot it, and possible take a life with it. He needs to have it fit him....not some random caliber/make.
 
He'll probably end up with a Glock like most of the other LEO's out there.
 
www.10-8forums.com
www.1911forum.com
www.warriortalk.com

The 10-8 forum is pretty much specifically LEO. There are a few non-LEO on there by invitation only I think.

As CrashAxe mentioned, reliability is the most important factor. It has to be working if it's needed. There are some really good American firearms companies as well: Kimber, Springfield Armory, Wilson Combat, to name a few. And many of them offer LEO discounts if asked.

Training above and beyond what he gets in the academy is really important as well. www.uspsa.org and www.idpa.com are competitive shooting organizations, but still provide opportunities to learn more about weapons manipulations.

Books and videos by authors like Massad Ayoob, Walt Rauch and Ken Hackathorn are also good resources.
 
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