Seminole Down Near Brunswick, GA

I thought these things were supposed to happen in threes. Seems like it has been raining airplanes the last couple weeks.
 
Sheesh. All the best to those aboard and their loved ones.

Article said it is believed to be one of ATP's planes out of Jacksonville. stink.
 
WBI Flyer said:
Sheesh. All the best to those aboard and their loved ones.



Article said it is believed to be one of ATP's planes out of Jacksonville. stink.
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Damn. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that unlike some pilot mills, ATP has a pretty good safety record.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I thought these things were supposed to happen in threes. Seems like it has been raining airplanes the last couple weeks.
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Trying to figure that out. There is a new one everyday.
Maybe weather is getting nice so people are going up again after being down for the winter and are rusty.
 
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ATP's safety record is par for the course as I understand it. - above the average pilot pool. The deal is that when you earn your CFI, everyone goes to Jacksonville to "train" to standards as an ATP CFI - then time-building... as a CFI for at one of ATP's schools (or elsewhere if you get a gig). Everyone rotates through Jacksonville for 30 days or more.


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I can't remember if commercial cert. comes before or after Jacksonville. I looked hard at the program before deciding it was not even remotely appropriate for me as a father and husband.

​
It seems the last few days a lot of folks have been catching dreams that they were not chasing. That stinks.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
Maybe weather is getting nice so people are going up again after being down for the winter and are rusty.
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I think that has a lot to do with it. The president of our local flying club put out an e-mail last month asking why no one is flying, and went on about adjusting 'fleet size' to the activity level....

I wanted to send a reply... "look out the window dumbass"
Winter was much worse than usual here. Local newspaper said Raleigh used 4300 tons of salt/sand this year. The preceding three yrs combined, only 500 total used.

It didn't help that he sen't the email on a 30 degree day when it was sleeting.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Trying to figure that out. There is a new one everyday.
Maybe weather is getting nice so people are going up again after being down for the winter and are rusty.
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I think you are very correct!

We have a trip each weekend for the next two...pending weather. But, I knocked the rust off last Fri and will again Thursday before taking my precious family up. I top off fuel, strap dogfood and birdseed into the two rear seats and baggage area to get the weight up and cg more aft. Takes about an hour and 12 gallon of 100LL. Be safe and practice those accelerated stalls and slow flight up high. Keep at it until you "feel" the plane and react correctly every time.
 
dell30rb said:
I think that has a lot to do with it. The president of our local flying club put out an e-mail last month asking why no one is flying, and went on about adjusting 'fleet size' to the activity level....

I wanted to send a reply... "look out the window dumbass"
Winter was much worse than usual here. Local newspaper said Raleigh used 4300 tons of salt/sand this year. The preceding three yrs combined, only 500 total used.

It didn't help that he sen't the email on a 30 degree day when it was sleeting.
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Then add to that 100LL at $5-$7/gallon, higher food prices and utility bills.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Damn. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that unlike some pilot mills, ATP has a pretty good safety record.
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Their safety record is fairly decent considering the size of the operation. I think this is their third fatal accident. One was a mid-air down in FL with, IIRC, a Riddle plane. Another was a fatal stall-spin accident in a Seminole near Raleigh, I believe. Based on what I understand this flight was one of their crew cross-country time build flights. Once students have their CMEL and instrument rating they are paired up with another student in a Seminole to build time. There's a lot of preparation and second opinions that take place before they're deemed qualified and safe to fly with another student. Time will tell what happened here, but it sure doesn't look good. :(
 
May have been doing engine out approach,could have been vmc roll. Have to wait for ntsb findings . May they rest in peace.
 
N923RS.

KJQF-KCRG. Direct puts them right over the crash site. Flight Aware blocked.

METAR KBQK 242255Z AUTO 04012G18KT 10SM SCT021 OVC036 12/08
A3007 RMK AO1=

News reports say they were on an IFR flight plan, but no Mayday call was received before going off radar.

They found a piece from the battery and luggage floating on the surface 45 min after it went down.
 
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I have a buddy who worked at ATP and still is in touch with some of the guys over there. He said that almost immediately after they get their IFR tickets, they send two newly-minted instrument rated pilots on a gigantic XC moving planes around the country. All time prior to that is with a CFI (except for the minimum solo requirements). According to my friend, a lot of people internally have said that launching two low-time pilots with very little twin, solo, or actual IMC time seems like a recipe for disaster.

Very very sad. RIP :(
 
dwalt said:
I have a buddy who worked at ATP and still is in touch with some of the guys over there. He said that almost immediately after they get their IFR tickets, they send two newly-minted instrument rated pilots on a gigantic XC moving planes around the country. All time prior to that is with a CFI (except for the minimum solo requirements). According to my friend, a lot of people internally have said that launching two low-time pilots with very little twin, solo, or actual IMC time seems like a recipe for disaster.

Very very sad. RIP :(
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That's not entirely accurate. Unless things have changed since I worked there, they aren't allowed to depart or land in IFR conditions, and every flight needs to be approved by a company dispatcher. The weather at the time of the crash also seems to have been solid VFR. To my knowledge this would be the first fatal crash involving ATP's crew XC time build program, and they launch a LOT of flights.
 
I think there is some merit to his statement. Im not here to badmouth anyone but to present some honest insight. I went through the program, during my xc building there were tines where I honestly felt I was rushed and sent into deterioating conditions. One particular instance we were sent to crg when the outlook called for ifr conditions which both of us had agreed on and presented to the flight planning office. Long story short, they did not see an issue and coerced us into flying to crg. Upon descent we were quickly pushing through some ifr and I had to make the decision to quickly request an approach. Whether we were allowed to fly into ifr can.be debated but we were required to and I feel I msde the right call. I had to take over during the approach because I did not feel my co pilot was trained thoroughly enough to execute down to minimums. This was the first time I started to question the amount of training and experience atp puts their pilots through before sending them on their way in multi engine aircraft. I fortunately had great support and a good team so theres no weight to near on the training staff more so on the program. I believe the instructors i had were great later in the program but there was always a sense of urgency to push pilots through with min flying hours. I am an mei and cfii now and I would never imagine signing off someone for a cmel with less than 100 hours in the aircraft at least, not just supplemented with a simulator. yes, I do believe freshly minted pilots have no place flying long xc routes with minimal training. It is a recipe for disaster though I am glad it does not happen more often. This is three now, something in their practice needs to change.
 
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N801BH said:
First post......

Welcome to POA...:cheers:

Ps.... Anyone.... Have they found to plane and crew yet??? :dunno:
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Thank you sir. Long time lurker but i felt compelled to comment an issue that has always bothered me. Yes, they've recovered the aircraft, N923rs from the water. Two bodies were found strapped to their seats. I am eagerly waiting for the ntsb report!
 
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R. Chopra said:
Thank you sir. Long time lurker but i felt compelled to comment an issue that has always bothered me. Yes, they've recovered the aircraft, N923rs from the water. Two bodies were found strapped to their seats.
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:sad::sad::sad::sad:
 
N801BH said:
:sad::sad::sad::sad:
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Yes, it is very tragic. They were apparently international students here for training. Once the ntsb report is published, I will sort through. If pilot error is attributed to the cause, we may have something else entirely to dissect. RIP to the two pilots.
 
In one of the newspaper reports it said a witness heard the engines running,,, that a bang and then the engines running again ,then another bang.. kinda like an inflight break up...

Regardless,,, it will be an interesting NTSB write up..
 
The latest is that it suffered an in-flight breakup. I'm fairly certain the investigation is going to point towards a bird-strike or some sort of serious mechanical failure. I know there's at least one documented case where a goose hit a PA-44 horizontal stab in cruise and took out the plane in a very similar manner.

The area the aircraft went down in is right around where ATC would typically start giving you a descent for CRG. The weather was VFR so I seriously doubt it was pilot disorientation, and overflying a marsh just adds to the risk of hitting migratory birds. I don't believe pilot error will be a factor in this one.
 
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matthammer said:
... I know there's at least one documented case where a goose hit a PA-44 horizontal stab in cruise and took out the plane in a very similar manner.
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Possibly this one: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20071102X01708&ntsbno=CHI08FA027&akey=1

"... Microscopic examination and DNA testing by forensic ornithologists identified the material on the wing skin section as remains of a Canada goose. ..."

Some kids from the University of North Dakota. 2 fatal.
 
How do they know it was an inflight breakup? The witnesses didn't see it come apart. The debris comment is too vague. Also, 8000MSL to 300 AGL in 4 minutes is hardly an orbital re-entry. I expect the fuse' of a an arrow/seminole to come to Earth a hell of a lot faster than 2000FPM with the wings detached.
 
hindsight2020 said:
How do they know it was an inflight breakup? The witnesses didn't see it come apart. The debris comment is too vague. Also, 8000MSL to 300 AGL in 4 minutes is hardly an orbital re-entry. I expect the fuse' of a an arrow/seminole to come to Earth a hell of a lot faster than 2000FPM with the wings detached.
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I'm just guessing here, but the prelim says that several witnesses saw debris falling from the clouds. To me, that sounds like in-flight breakup, often after loss of control.
 
"According to representatives of the flight school, the pilots had flown into JQF earlier from CRG and had an airplane change for the flight back to CRG."

I agree with the thought that this is probably either a bird strike or maintenance issue. Interesting that they did an airplane swap. I wonder if this one was going into maintenance or had just come out of maintenance.
 
Blackhawk said:
"According to representatives of the flight school, the pilots had flown into JQF earlier from CRG and had an airplane change for the flight back to CRG."

I agree with the thought that this is probably either a bird strike or maintenance issue. Interesting that they did an airplane swap. I wonder if this one was going into maintenance or had just come out of maintenance.
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Leaving JQF for CRG, it was most likely on its way in for maintenance. CRG is one of ATP's main maintenance locations.
 
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