Second month on the line

arnoha

arnoha

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arnoha
Well, I had a thread for the first month: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89369

It got a bit derailed, but, hey, par for the course.

How about a second try?

https://n194sp.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/january-was-slow/

Interestingly, myself and the club owner had a chat about those tire prices. Surprise...they came down this month! The $185 tire became a $130 tire. This is much more competitive, and makes me much happier. Many things came down, actually, including oil prices and the bearings for the wheels (now all replaced).

On the other hand, the club owner isn't charging back the student for destroying two tires and a tube. Bleh...still discussing this item with him. The 30% or so left on the tires was worth about $200, which isn't a whole lot of money, of course. Still, I hadn't put student negligence into my cost model!

Interestingly, I now have a witness to the flatspot flight. It was as was suspected. Landed very long after a high and fast divebomb approach. Hard bounce on the mains, small bounce on the nose, and locked brakes down the runway. Real pilots go around!
 
Ouch. Sorry to hear you're having these issues, anywhere else you could lease back your plane?
 
The biggest issues aren't related to the club. And that's getting better. I should really have stated all the good things about the club, too. All you've heard are the complaints.

It's a clean club and flight school. They pride themselves on professional and courteous service...and it actually happens. Both for the owners and the renters. They organize seminars, tower tours, breakfasts, and the like. The owner of the club has been nothing but kind to me and has put up with my first-time-owner problems. He's always been accessible and he's intelligent and savvy. For all the complaints about dollars, I have no complaints about the quality of service or any worries about the safety of my aircraft. None of the other clubs on the field have the polish of Trade Winds.

The other stuff would happen at any club. Stupid pilots play stupid games with planes. I knew that going in, and I'm not attached to the plane in any sentimental way. January was going to be a bad month for everyone as far as hours went. I can't blame the club for any of that.

I'm a long way from dumping Trade Winds. I'll have to remember to throw some good in with the bad, but, like most people, I very quickly take that stuff for granted!
 
If you're going to be going through tires a lot (which I suspect you will), consider retreads. I think they're about $60 a piece. I use Wilkerson, but Dessers are popular too.
 
Brad Z said:
If you're going to be going through tires a lot (which I suspect you will), consider retreads. I think they're about $60 a piece. I use Wilkerson, but Dessers are popular too.
Click to expand...

can't you just cut the brake lines? Tires will last a lot longer.
 
denverpilot said:
Savvy enough to make sure he keeps his customers at your expense.
Click to expand...

That.

All the leasebacks I've seen have the flight school cover tires, oil changes, student level wear and tear, only thing the owner covers are things like major overhauls and some other large scale scheduled mx.
 
I was working for a shop that took care of a flight school. The retreads were on all of the planes and we never had seen a failure of them.
 
arnoha said:
Well, I had a thread for the first month: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89369

It got a bit derailed, but, hey, par for the course.

How about a second try?

https://n194sp.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/january-was-slow/

Interestingly, myself and the club owner had a chat about those tire prices. Surprise...they came down this month! The $185 tire became a $130 tire. This is much more competitive, and makes me much happier. Many things came down, actually, including oil prices and the bearings for the wheels (now all replaced).

On the other hand, the club owner isn't charging back the student for destroying two tires and a tube. Bleh...still discussing this item with him. The 30% or so left on the tires was worth about $200, which isn't a whole lot of money, of course. Still, I hadn't put student negligence into my cost model!

Interestingly, I now have a witness to the flatspot flight. It was as was suspected. Landed very long after a high and fast divebomb approach. Hard bounce on the mains, small bounce on the nose, and locked brakes down the runway. Real pilots go around!
Click to expand...

I read your blog post. Skip the vertical card compass...it's not worth the money. Even Cirrus uses a whisky compass.

Also, isn't an average 11 gallons per tach hour a bit high for fuel burn? Is anyone leaning the mixture?
 
Brad Z said:
I read your blog post. Skip the vertical card compass...it's not worth the money. Even Cirrus uses a whisky compass.

Also, isn't an average 11 gallons per tach hour a bit high for fuel burn? Is anyone leaning the mixture?
Click to expand...

Im a big fan of a vertical cards, especially for IFR planes.

11GPH is about right for that plane
180hp plane at 70%

180/2 = 90PPH at 100%

90PPH/6lbs per gal = 15GPH @ 100%


15GPH x .7. = 10.5GPH at 70%
 
Retreads are probably what are going on the plane next. I'll see what the pace is. This is the first pair of tires on the plane, so one data point does not make a trend. To the owner's credit, he indicated that he would be fine with me picking up parts as needed for whatever price I could get them for. He'll store and install them for me, so I should pick up some retreads and hold them for the airplane.

It's a wet lease, so I cover everything. There are no dry leases available anywhere near here. There's plenty of clubs in the area (more than a dozen) and they are all wet lease. I don't lack for options and they all come with their own drama. Of the two airports I would likely have homed at RHV and PAO:

RHV
Trade Winds: Oriented as a school, both part 61 and 141. Does rentals and behaves as an FBO as well. Has large attached shop. Fleet of SP's. Higher end pricing. OpenAirplane.
Aerodynamic: Rental and part 61. Specializes in tailwheel. Has no recent aircraft except a couple LSA. Low end pricing. Attached shop.
Squadron 2: Mostly a rental club. Variety of aircraft. Know less about them.
Nice Air: Specializes in Asian students, Part 141. Older aircraft, no SP.

PAO
West Valley Flying Club: Where I learned. Large club and Part 61. Variety of aircraft. Non-profit. Drama with owners, perpetually. Long-standing feud with Advantage.
Advantage: Higher end, for-profit club. Otherwise similar to WVFC. Long-standing feud with WVFC.
Advanced Flyers: Splinter from WVFC when owner got frustrated and started his own club. Owns most aircraft personally, but some leaseback.
Sundance: Long standing club, older aircraft and pilots. Know less about them.
MaxG Aviation: Specializes in aerobatic aircraft and instruction.

Trade Winds gets the hours and it has a fleet of 8 SPs. That fleet of identical aircraft massively helps get people in the door since you know there will always be a plane available to you. The other thing is the shop deals with a lot of them. At $110/hour, the rate is reasonable, and I've found the charged hours are relatively low, as these guys do this all day long.

I didn't throw a dart at a chart of clubs. It was a reasoned decision. I can't fault Walt; we're both trying to run a business. Sometimes our motivations align. Sometimes they don't. When they don't, we negotiate. So far, only two months in, I've already seen changes I've asked for.

Like I said, it's mostly good with the club. Most of the losses have to do with the weather and also mx items I missed on purchase. For instance, it may be that I was a bit overcharged for bearings, but I bought the plane with all bad wheel bearings! I have to remember to state the good with the bad, or folks only see the bad.
 
Brad Z said:
I read your blog post. Skip the vertical card compass...it's not worth the money. Even Cirrus uses a whisky compass.

Also, isn't an average 11 gallons per tach hour a bit high for fuel burn? Is anyone leaning the mixture?
Click to expand...

If my whiskey compass were good, I would skip it. But it's not. I'm not sure what's wrong with it, but it's impossible to read. Something has polluted the fluid, and that has stained the numbering.

If I'm going to replace the compass, might as well make a vertical card, right?

And, yeah, no one is leaning. Welcome to the rental market. You have to build in that fact into the price knowing that no one will bother with that when they're not paying for fuel. This I knew going in (because I was lazy as hell about it when renting, too).
 
James331 said:
Im a big fan of a vertical cards, especially for IFR planes.

11GPH is about right for that plane
180hp plane at 70%

180/2 = 90PPH at 100%

90PPH/6lbs per gal = 15GPH @ 100%


15GPH x .7. = 10.5GPH at 70%
Click to expand...


11 GPH is NOT about right for that engine or that plane. It's about 2-3 GPH more than the plane should be burning. Someone is either not paying attention to the mixture or it's being flown "around the pattern" a whole lot where you usually don't tweak that all that much.

You should be able to get 9-10 GPH if you do anything, and 8 if you REALLY play with the mixture and power.

Granted, I'm sure the 11 GPH was an average so it's possible it could have burned more or less, but 11 GPH at cruise is just horrible.
 
arnoha said:
If my whiskey compass were good, I would skip it. But it's not. I'm not sure what's wrong with it, but it's impossible to read. Something has polluted the fluid, and that has stained the numbering.

If I'm going to replace the compass, might as well make a vertical card, right?

And, yeah, no one is leaning. Welcome to the rental market. You have to build in that fact into the price knowing that no one will bother with that when they're not paying for fuel. This I knew going in (because I was lazy as hell about it when renting, too).
Click to expand...

I'm on my second VCC, and managed several airplanes in my prior flying club with them. I WANT to like the compass, as it does have a better presentation...but...they can be notoriously finicky. They have tiny mechanical parts that don't handle vibration very well. In comparison a whisky compass is just a ball in kerosene.

Besides, with GPS, you compass isn't the sole device to figure out your heading if you loose your vacuum system.
 
Our flying club uses the Condor tires. We buy them in bulk. I believe they are marketed to the flight training environment...

I locked one up briefly when I was a new pilot. Was surprised that I didn't run the tire. No visible flat spot or vibration.
 
arnoha said:
Well, I had a thread for the first month: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89369

It got a bit derailed, but, hey, par for the course.

How about a second try?

https://n194sp.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/january-was-slow/

Interestingly, myself and the club owner had a chat about those tire prices. Surprise...they came down this month! The $185 tire became a $130 tire. This is much more competitive, and makes me much happier. Many things came down, actually, including oil prices and the bearings for the wheels (now all replaced).

On the other hand, the club owner isn't charging back the student for destroying two tires and a tube. Bleh...still discussing this item with him. The 30% or so left on the tires was worth about $200, which isn't a whole lot of money, of course. Still, I hadn't put student negligence into my cost model!

Interestingly, I now have a witness to the flatspot flight. It was as was suspected. Landed very long after a high and fast divebomb approach. Hard bounce on the mains, small bounce on the nose, and locked brakes down the runway. Real pilots go around!
Click to expand...

By the way, your plane might fly more if the rental outfit added it to their website fleet list:

http://www.tradewindsaviation.com/rent-an-airplane/fleet/
 
Caramon13 said:
11 GPH is NOT about right for that engine or that plane. It's about 2-3 GPH more than the plane should be burning. Someone is either not paying attention to the mixture or it's being flown "around the pattern" a whole lot where you usually don't tweak that all that much.

You should be able to get 9-10 GPH if you do anything, and 8 if you REALLY play with the mixture and power.

Granted, I'm sure the 11 GPH was an average so it's possible it could have burned more or less, but 11 GPH at cruise is just horrible.
Click to expand...

I'll note the book number at 75% cruise is 10.5 GPH, so it's not that far off.
 
Caramon13 said:
11 GPH is NOT about right for that engine or that plane. It's about 2-3 GPH more than the plane should be burning. Someone is either not paying attention to the mixture or it's being flown "around the pattern" a whole lot where you usually don't tweak that all that much.

You should be able to get 9-10 GPH if you do anything, and 8 if you REALLY play with the mixture and power.

Granted, I'm sure the 11 GPH was an average so it's possible it could have burned more or less, but 11 GPH at cruise is just horrible.
Click to expand...

The math I showed you is pretty basic and widely accepted rule of thumb numbers for NA piston pounders, also for a FBO plane which doesn't really get flown on real cross countries (like hours on end) and spends most of it's time in the local area on maneuvers or in the pattern, 11GPH isn't going to sound any alarms with this CFI.

Brad Z said:
By the way, your plane might fly more if the rental outfit added it to their website fleet list:

http://www.tradewindsaviation.com/rent-an-airplane/fleet/
Click to expand...

kVVKVq4KFqMhy.gif


Brad Z said:
I'm on my second VCC, and managed several airplanes in my prior flying club with them. I WANT to like the compass, as it does have a better presentation...but...they can be notoriously finicky. They have tiny mechanical parts that don't handle vibration very well. In comparison a whisky compass is just a ball in kerosene.

Besides, with GPS, you compass isn't the sole device to figure out your heading if you loose your vacuum system.
Click to expand...

The VCC in my float plane has been holding up just fine, been in it since the last owner did a huge panel upgrade, years ago.

I agree with the OP, if you got a whiskey compass that goes TU might as well upgrade to a VCC, price wise it isn't much of a difference and performance it's a good step up, besides any instrument students the plane gets will thank you for it :D
 
A reminder that the number listed is per tach hour. Pulling the power back to fly at less than 75% won't materially affect the number. And there is no constant speed prop that would make the math complicated. The Hobbs hour number is actually just over 7 GPH, despite mostly being a training plane that no one leans. And, yes, it hops up and down the pattern all day long. I think there have only been a few XC flights in the last couple months.

I'll try the VCC. If I'm replacing it inside of 1000 hours, yeah, I'll rethink. I'm hoping the presence of the VCC will make my aircraft just a little more pleasant to rent, driving some traffic to it. There is one other aircraft on the line with a VCC, but it's G1000, so hard to compare numbers. (The G1000 aircraft don't fly as much as the six-pack ones.) Also complicating the math is that the one with the VCC also has an AoA gauge, which would have more effect on rentals.

Actually...speaking of that...

Anyone have experience with AoA gauges? I should probably start a new thread on that...unless there is one already. I've thought about it for my plane as another item to drive students to it, but I don't know if the money spent will pay back in extra rentals. But I love the idea of having the tool.
 
arnoha said:
A reminder that the number listed is per tach hour. Pulling the power back to fly at less than 75% won't materially affect the number. And there is no constant speed prop that would make the math complicated. The Hobbs hour number is actually just over 7 GPH, despite mostly being a training plane that no one leans. And, yes, it hops up and down the pattern all day long. I think there have only been a few XC flights in the last couple months.

I'll try the VCC. If I'm replacing it inside of 1000 hours, yeah, I'll rethink. I'm hoping the presence of the VCC will make my aircraft just a little more pleasant to rent, driving some traffic to it. There is one other aircraft on the line with a VCC, but it's G1000, so hard to compare numbers. (The G1000 aircraft don't fly as much as the six-pack ones.) Also complicating the math is that the one with the VCC also has an AoA gauge, which would have more effect on rentals.

Actually...speaking of that...

Anyone have experience with AoA gauges? I should probably start a new thread on that...unless there is one already. I've thought about it for my plane as another item to drive students to it, but I don't know if the money spent will pay back in extra rentals. But I love the idea of having the tool.
Click to expand...

I've been looking at AOAs too. I'm not sure you'll see a ROI necessarily for renters, although the instructors may prefer it for teaching. I think its a good safety tool, just like 4 point seat harnesses, and perhaps that's enough of a reason right there. It would be nice if insurance companies cut a break on safety devices like that, but I suppose they figure folks will compensate safety in some other way.

By the way, I was reading your squawk sheet:

The control lock decal is hard to read. That’ll be $100 to replace.
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Ouch! Don't you have a labelmaker? :)
 
Or a simple pin with a remove before flight flag :D
 
Brad Z said:
By the way, I was reading your squawk sheet:



Ouch! Don't you have a labelmaker? :)
Click to expand...

Yes, of course. This is a minor item of disagreement between the club owner and myself. I see both sides. He likes his planes clean and consistent. Broken windows and all that. Strips of labelmaker all over the plane do not constitute clean and consistent. He believes it's part of what keeps his airplanes pumping out 70+ hours per month in the summer.

I don't care too much. I'm fine with the labels, and I'd do that if it were up to me. They are supremely functional. I'm considering applying the labels myself and seeing if he flags it on the 100-hour as something to replace, or just shrugs it off and lets it go.

The contract allows him to conduct repairs under 1AMU without approval, as the ability to keep the plane flying without my direct input on every little thing is important to actually being profitable. So, this is one he's allowed without my approval. Together, we're learning each other's tastes so that we operate well together at some point in the future. It's not bad now, just a little higher touch than should be required.

In the grand scheme of things, $100 isn't going to break me. It's a balancing act what I choose to fight and what I don't. I fought on the seats, pulling the cost for fixing those from $2200 to around $800. And ignored the seat recline, putting off $3000 in cost. And lobbied about the part pricing and saw that come down the next month. I won't really fight $100 for dumb decal.
 
James331 said:
Or a simple pin with a remove before flight flag :D
Click to expand...

Shockingly, an airworthiness item. It must say exactly what is in the POH. On a personal aircraft? I totally let it go forever; even a ramp check would have to be anal as hell to flag that. But, as a plane frequently visited by DPE's, it's got to be right.

See above for my post on labelmaker making it right.
 
dell30rb said:
Our flying club uses the Condor tires. We buy them in bulk. I believe they are marketed to the flight training environment...

I locked one up briefly when I was a new pilot. Was surprised that I didn't ruin the tire. No visible flat spot or vibration.
Click to expand...

That flatspot that I have a picture of in the blog was from having the tire locked basically from touchdown to stop. I've had brief lockups while learning to land, too. Usually it's not a big deal because it's early in the landing when the wings are providing some lift and it's easy to lock it up. But the lack of force on the tire means damage is also minimal. Now, if you lock it up to a full stop like my renter did, the last half of the stop with the wings doing nothing will do far more damage.
 
arnoha said:
That flatspot that I have a picture of in the blog was from having the tire locked basically from touchdown to stop. I've had brief lockups while learning to land, too. Usually it's not a big deal because it's early in the landing when the wings are providing some lift and it's easy to lock it up. But the lack of force on the tire means damage is also minimal. Now, if you lock it up to a full stop like my renter did, the last half of the stop with the wings doing nothing will do far more damage.
Click to expand...

Man you're understanding!
 
In having your aircraft man handled, nearly totaled and paying for all the damage.

As a student pilot I never flat spotted a tire, non of any of the students I've had as a CFI have ever flat spotted a tire.

If I rented a plane and not only flat spotted, but burnt through the dang thing, I'd fully expect to pay for the damages, if I were the school I'd already start repairing the plane and preparing to explain to the owner, I'd also try to bill the renter and be willing to eat it if I couldn't recoup from my client.

This was the result of a school making a mistake and allowing someone who should never of PICed your plane to gain control of it, it's a mistake they are not taking responsibly for, I just don't understand why you're so OK with all of this. What's next? Someone prop striking it, buckling your firewall and you paying for that too?
 
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arnoha said:
Yes, of course. This is a minor item of disagreement between the club owner and myself. I see both sides. He likes his planes clean and consistent. Broken windows and all that. Strips of labelmaker all over the plane do not constitute clean and consistent. He believes it's part of what keeps his airplanes pumping out 70+ hours per month in the summer.

I don't care too much. I'm fine with the labels, and I'd do that if it were up to me. They are supremely functional. I'm considering applying the labels myself and seeing if he flags it on the 100-hour as something to replace, or just shrugs it off and lets it go.

The contract allows him to conduct repairs under 1AMU without approval, as the ability to keep the plane flying without my direct input on every little thing is important to actually being profitable. So, this is one he's allowed without my approval. Together, we're learning each other's tastes so that we operate well together at some point in the future. It's not bad now, just a little higher touch than should be required.

In the grand scheme of things, $100 isn't going to break me. It's a balancing act what I choose to fight and what I don't. I fought on the seats, pulling the cost for fixing those from $2200 to around $800. And ignored the seat recline, putting off $3000 in cost. And lobbied about the part pricing and saw that come down the next month. I won't really fight $100 for dumb decal.
Click to expand...

I know it's only a $100, but it adds up over time and I presume your goal is to make money. I applaud the owner for trying to keep things consistent but we're talking about label forgawdsake on a item that will be stowed away in flight. If he's charging you to replace that, lord knows what the next thing is. And with a $1,000/ month of repairs without authorization, you're giving him a license to print money. From what I'm reading things are off to a really bad start.

I'm not one to be critical of other people's dealings, but you've put it all out there for us. I hope this venture becomes profitable for you, but I've seen a lot of leaseback planes go off the the rental line after 6-12 months becomes it was soaking the owner--even when the planes flew a lot.

Unrelated, why am I annoyed that this venture is referred to as a "club"? It doesn't sound like there's equity ownership for anyone other than the owner.
 
James331 said:
In having your aircraft man handled, nearly totaled and paying for all the damage.

As a student pilot I never flat spotted a tire, non of any of the students I've had as a CFI have ever flat spotted a tire.

If I rented a plane and not only flat spotted, but burnt through the dang thing, I'd fully expect to pay for the damages, if I were the school I'd already start repairing the plane and preparing to explain to the owner, I'd also try to bill the renter and be willing to eat it if I couldn't recoup from my client.

This was the result of a school making a mistake and allowing someone who should never of PICed your plane to gain control of it, it's a mistake they are not taking responsibly for, I just don't understand why you're so OK with all of this. What's next? Someone prop striking it, buckling your firewall and you paying for that too?
Click to expand...

Oh, just because I haven't strung out the school I rent my plane through publicly does not mean there hasn't been...discussion. It's not a closed topic yet, but I'd have to be pretty stupid to air my dirty laundry on a public, indexed, searchable board. Or on my plane's blog, which I actively market to the students. The emails between me and the club owner are private. :wink2:

I will say this: It's important to me that the club, and not the owner, be the arbiter of this to the renter. If I'm a renter and I peg a particular owner as being a hard-ass, I won't rent that plane. At another club where I used to rent, we had an aircraft where the owner stuck me for a minimum rental amount for a plane that wasn't going to be rented at all that weekend without me. I never rented either of his aircraft ever again. Neither did any of my friends. When I complained, the club told me directly, "It was the owner's choice." It was totally inside the rules to charge me. And it's my prerogative to avoid the aircraft.

However, if the club makes the decision to charge the renter and is consistent with the rules, my aircraft does not become pariah just because someone had some bad luck with it. If I have to, I'll eat $200 (the prorated amount) to keep the peace. And I'll be grumpy about it with the club owner.

But this is as close as you'll get to knowing just how grumpy.
 
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Brad Z said:
I know it's only a $100, but it adds up over time and I presume your goal is to make money. I applaud the owner for trying to keep things consistent but we're talking about label forgawdsake on a item that will be stowed away in flight. If he's charging you to replace that, lord knows what the next thing is. And with a $1,000/ month of repairs without authorization, you're giving him a license to print money. From what I'm reading things are off to a really bad start.

I'm not one to be critical of other people's dealings, but you've put it all out there for us. I hope this venture becomes profitable for you, but I've seen a lot of leaseback planes go off the the rental line after 6-12 months becomes it was soaking the owner--even when the planes flew a lot.

Unrelated, why am I annoyed that this venture is referred to as a "club"? It doesn't sound like there's equity ownership for anyone other than the owner.
Click to expand...

See above post for a touch of color. ^^^^

I'm putting it all out there because I want people to see what it's really like. Well, maybe with some filters, as previously mentioned. I'm not completely stupid.

And club...that's my mistake. I need to stop that right now. Walt does not refer to his business as a club. That's my bad habit. I previously rented from West Valley Flight Club, which is a non-profit and built much more like a club. After that, I just got used to calling all the rental outfits clubs. I need to stop.
 
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Would you be interested in sharing some more info with me about your lease back? I own a flight school here in CA and I am interested in getting some planes on leaseback to provide more options for my students. I currently contract with a local college for flight training but they provide their own fleet of 4 aircraft. As I get more and more public students (non college associated) I am finding the need for more aircraft than my current personal 3. Out of the 7 planes on my line, I can only offer 3 to the public and only 1 of which is really suited for private/instrument students.

I'm looking for some input from owners who are doing it so I can make sure I get it right and be attractive to aircraft owners. I havn't been able to find a bunch of "good" info online so your thread really hits home as to what I am looking for.
Making everyone happy is a priority of mine. I think your feedback can help me accomplish that. I would really appreciate your feedback as a training aircraft lessor. Feel free to PM me.


Thanks
Thomas
 
Thomas R. said:
Would you be interested in sharing some more info with me about your lease back? I own a flight school here in CA and I am interested in getting some planes on leaseback to provide more options for my students. I currently contract with a local college for flight training but they provide their own fleet of 4 aircraft. As I get more and more public students (non college associated) I am finding the need for more aircraft than my current personal 3. Out of the 7 planes on my line, I can only offer 3 to the public and only 1 of which is really suited for private/instrument students.

I'm looking for some input from owners who are doing it so I can make sure I get it right and be attractive to aircraft owners. I havn't been able to find a bunch of "good" info online so your thread really hits home as to what I am looking for.
Making everyone happy is a priority of mine. I think your feedback can help me accomplish that. I would really appreciate your feedback as a training aircraft lessor. Feel free to PM me.


Thanks
Thomas
Click to expand...

Yes, of course. I'll PM my you email address. I'd be thrilled to have perspective on the other side of the fence, too. Where are you located?

Notes:

  1. I'm a first time owner, so no direct ownership perspective.
  2. First time leaseback, so no perspective there, either.
  3. Never owned a school.
So, take anything I say with the grain of salt it deserves. I don't have the experience to know when I'm being reasonable or unreasonable just yet.
 
Write a leaseback that's fair and leaves the owner a little bit ahead (don't have to make much, but you're operating it) and you'll do okay. I'm sure there are leaseback examples online and I'm sure somebody here has signed every one of them at some point (and can tell you which ones sucked).
 
mkosmo said:
Write a leaseback that's fair and leaves the owner a little bit ahead (don't have to make much, but you're operating it) and you'll do okay. I'm sure there are leaseback examples online and I'm sure somebody here has signed every one of them at some point (and can tell you which ones sucked).
Click to expand...

I agree entirely. Im 32 year's old and have made it this far by not being greedy. I'm very fair with my students and instructors I pay the most to my cfis out of any school on the field on the field and I charge the least for airplanes and instruction out of any school on my field. I will make a new thread on the topic as I do not want to hijack his thread
 
arnoha said:
I'll note the book number at 75% cruise is 10.5 GPH, so it's not that far off.
Click to expand...

Actually, just got a refined usage for the last month. It was 10.8 USG per tach hour. That's right in line with the 10.5 book number, given that student pilots don't lean worth a damn. I'm doing 7.8 per Hobbs, which is also reasonable.
 
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