Scud-running: Definitely Bad, but is it legal?

SbestCFII

SbestCFII

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CFII Scott - The IFR Coach
So consider this. You're at a civil airport with no instrument approaches with relatively flat terrain. So it's Class G airspace up to 1200' AGL. The ceiling is 1000' and the visibility is three miles (basic VFR). Since in Class G airspace below 1200' the visibility and cloud clearance requirements 1 sm. and clear of clouds. Assuming no obstacles, could you technically and legally make this "scud-run" to another, similar airport?

Also consider that, since class E doesn't start until 1200' could you fly IFR in the clouds at 1100' without a clearance?

It might technically be legal, but I wouldn't do it.

Comments?
 
Here in the Midwest they are putting towers up higher than that pretty frequently. Not always on the charts. Not a good plan to fly that low around here. Used to have friends who did that. Didn't work out for them.
 
Is it over a "congested area"?
 
Yup

Its done all the time, would be smart to be IFR capable just incase though.
 
Definitely keep the obstacle database updated on your GPS if you are doing this...

The only time I have had to do this was when I was a new pilot and the weather got a jump on me. It was pretty unsettling, I would not do it intentionally. Basically heard the GPS constantly giving "obstacle" and "terrain" alerts.
 
Generally I wouldn't scud run but I wouldn't rule it out either. If we're talking a ceiling of 1,000 feet over water or unpopulated flat land and I'm reasonably sure it isn't going to close in on me, and it's a fairly short flight, I might.

In the second scenario, bear in mind that it wouldn't be uncommon to leave an airport in Class G, in IMC, enroute to a cleared routing. The clearance you have wouldn't technically be effective until you entered Class E.
 
Underneath you're good to go. I'm not quite sure how you handle Class G IFR like that or if it's technically possible. It's not something I would choose to take off into, but it's kind of a grey area that's the basis of a lot of "Roll your own" approaches into ranch strips and such. I hesitate to call it IFR because it's not really covered under the Rules. Can you be self directed in the clouds in Class G? It's a contentious point, but I don't recall a rule against it. With SVT and ADS-B though this is the future of ATC, has always been since the NextGen concept began. "Free flight" and "HITS" is the plan, traffic and terrain avoidance info being aircraft system based.
 
bullwinkle said:
Definitely keep the obstacle database updated on your GPS if you are doing this...

The only time I have had to do this was when I was a new pilot and the weather got a jump on me. It was pretty unsettling, I would not do it intentionally. Basically heard the GPS constantly giving "obstacle" and "terrain" alerts.
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You don't want a pipeline job then. Lot's of scud running, and even on beautiful days, you're still flying along at 100'AGL.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Generally I wouldn't scud run but I wouldn't rule it out either. If we're talking a ceiling of 1,000 feet over water or unpopulated flat land and I'm reasonably sure it isn't going to close in on me, and it's a fairly short flight, I might.

In the second scenario, bear in mind that it wouldn't be uncommon to leave an airport in Class G, in IMC, enroute to a cleared routing. The clearance you have wouldn't technically be effective until you entered Class E.
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I think he intends in the second scenario to complete the flight in IMC while remain in G and never filing or getting a clearance. Say from one ranch strip to a buddy's ranch strip down the way, you both have RYO approaches worked out.

I think it's legal although frowned upon by many.
 
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SbestCFII said:
So consider this. You're at a civil airport with no instrument approaches with relatively flat terrain. So it's Class G airspace up to 1200' AGL. The ceiling is 1000' and the visibility is three miles (basic VFR). Since in Class G airspace below 1200' the visibility and cloud clearance requirements 1 sm. and clear of clouds. Assuming no obstacles, could you technically and legally make this "scud-run" to another, similar airport?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Also consider that, since class E doesn't start until 1200' could you fly IFR in the clouds at 1100' without a clearance?
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No. You'd have to be at a cardinal altitude correct for direction of flight and no lower than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 miles, and 200' obstacles are assumed to be everywhere away from airports with IAPs. You'd also need an IAP at your destination to descend out of those clouds and you ruled that out.
 
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narchee said:
Is it over a "congested area"?
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Even if it is, you could fly it at 1100 AGL legally, unless there are buildings higher than 100 feet.

That is, unless there is some phantom 700 AGL Class E airspace (e.g., around a helipad or closed airport).

Not that it's a good idea to be constrained into a 200 foot zone with possible obstructions.
 
I've done it in the Comanche when the ceilings were 800. Of course it was in the UP.
 
I used to do this sort of thing form time to time, but the proliferation of cell towers has pretty much put the kibosh on it. Actually, it isn't the towers I worry about. They're often lit and are quite visible in daylight even if not. The guy wires not so much.
 
steingar said:
I used to do this sort of thing form time to time, but the proliferation of cell towers has pretty much put the kibosh on it. Actually, it isn't the towers I worry about. They're often lit and are quite visible in daylight even if not. The guy wires not so much.
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Most cell towers I come across don't use wires.
 
Henning said:
I think he intends in the second scenario to complete the flight in IMC while remain in G and never filing or getting a clearance. Say from one ranch strip to a buddy's ranch strip down the way, you both have RYO approaches worked out.

I think it's legal although frowned upon by many.
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One could feasibly do that in some of the airspace up North of here where the class G ceiling can go quite high, of course that would be incredibly stupid. Although, with modern SVT devices, that could probably be pulled off.
 
Sac Arrow said:
One could feasibly do that in some of the airspace up North of here where the class G ceiling can go quite high, of course that would be incredibly stupid. Although, with modern SVT devices, that could probably be pulled off.
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Yeah, if you can program in a HITS route runway to runway, the feasibility exists, though I would like a live obstruction look ahead radar sensor to provide a non-database source of obstruction data.
 
For me it would depend on how well I knew the route in question. I have done it many moons ago before I had my IR, I'm not real comfortable scud running, but if I know the area I would consider doing it.
 
I might consider it, if and only if, I had pretty good confidence that the weather at my departure airport was not going to get worse.

I found myself in a rather uncomfortable situation on my first leg of taking delivery of the Waco. I had planned to fly from Tullahoma to Chattanooga. I awoke that morning to unforecasted IFR across western Tennessee. Ceiling finally lifted to about 1500 AGL and I took off. Weather at CHA was clear skies. Terrain between THA and CHA is rising (Cumberland Plateau). Ceiling was not and the biplane was not IFR capable. Distance wise I was not that far from Chattanooga, but I kept getting lower and lower and then when the yellow X's on the Garmin Aera became red X's, I decided enough was enough and did a 180 return to THA. The fact that I was less than 100 miles from where the Planes of Fame Hellcat crashed scud running along I-40 certainly added to my uneasiness.

If you are going to take the chance on marginal circumstances, you need to make sure you have outs.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I might consider it, if and only if, I had pretty good confidence that the weather at my departure airport was not going to get worse.

I found myself in a rather uncomfortable situation on my first leg of taking delivery of the Waco. I had planned to fly from Tullahoma to Chattanooga. I awoke that morning to unforecasted IFR across western Tennessee. Ceiling finally lifted to about 1500 AGL and I took off. Weather at CHA was clear skies. Terrain between THA and CHA is rising (Cumberland Plateau). Ceiling was not and the biplane was not IFR capable. Distance wise I was not that far from Chattanooga, but I kept getting lower and lower and then when the yellow X's on the Garmin Aera became red X's, I decided enough was enough and did a 180 return to THA. The fact that I was less than 100 miles from where the Planes of Fame Hellcat crashed scud running along I-40 certainly added to my uneasiness.

If you are going to take the chance on marginal circumstances, you need to make sure you have outs.
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Good call, really easy to get suckered into rising terrain. If you know the passes in the region you can usually get through, but when you can't, you're screwed.
 
Not around me. We do not have the fuzzy side of blue, only the magenta stuff.
 
roncachamp said:
No. You'd have to be at a cardinal altitude correct for direction of flight and no lower than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 miles, and 200' obstacles are assumed to be everywhere away from airports with IAPs. You'd also need an IAP at your destination to descend out of those clouds and you ruled that out.
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Cardinal altitudes for direction of flight dont start until 3000' AGL and the 1000' minimum is only for populated areas. If you're instrument rated, and in class G airspace you can be in IMC without a clearance. Smart? I dont think so. Legal? Yup.
 
StinkBug said:
Cardinal altitudes for direction of flight dont start until 3000' AGL and the 1000' minimum is only for populated areas. If you're instrument rated, and in class G airspace you can be in IMC without a clearance. Smart? I dont think so. Legal? Yup.
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Cardinal altitudes for direction of flight don't start until 3000' AGL only for VFR operations, see FAR 91.179(b). Minimum IFR altitudes are covered in FAR 91.177, you will not find any mention of populated areas there. You cannot legally be in IMC without a clearance where the floor of controlled airspace is 1200' AGL or less, there just isn't enough room.
 
Henning said:
You don't want a pipeline job then. Lot's of scud running, and even on beautiful days, you're still flying along at 100'AGL.
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Sure...for money.

No need risking life and limb to overpay for a hamburger. :D
 
Sac Arrow said:
Generally I wouldn't scud run but I wouldn't rule it out either. If we're talking a ceiling of 1,000 feet over water or unpopulated flat land and I'm reasonably sure it isn't going to close in on me, and it's a fairly short flight, I might.

In the second scenario, bear in mind that it wouldn't be uncommon to leave an airport in Class G, in IMC, enroute to a cleared routing. The clearance you have wouldn't technically be effective until you entered Class E.
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Good point. Out west, you also might also be in Class G higher than 1200' flying in IMC without a clearance (IFR rated and current of course). As a side "benefit" of NextGen, some of that airspace may one day be Class E.
 
bullwinkle said:
Sure...for money.

No need risking life and limb to overpay for a hamburger. :D
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What if you are trying to get your airplane to the IA to start the annual on time because you don't want to call the FSDO and ask for a ferry permit???
 
Theboys said:
Here in the Midwest they are putting towers up higher than that pretty frequently. Not always on the charts. Not a good plan to fly that low around here. Used to have friends who did that. Didn't work out for them.
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Indeed. But in your case, I know you'll be filing and flying IFR and not having to worry about any of that. How's the new biz going?
 
Fearless Tower said:
What if you are trying to get your airplane to the IA to start the annual on time because you don't want to call the FSDO and ask for a ferry permit???
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It all depends. My usual rule is 1500ft ceilings, that gives me 1000AGL with 500ft cloud clearance. If the circumstances are right I'd push that down a bit, but only with caution.

I did launch into this, it was pretty scud-ish:

weather_zpse5d38007.jpg
 
For me it also depends on the visibility underneath - at a mile every 20ish seconds things come out of the scuz in a hurry.
 
bullwinkle said:
It all depends. My usual rule is 1500ft ceilings, that gives me 1000AGL with 500ft cloud clearance. If the circumstances are right I'd push that down a bit, but only with caution.

I did launch into this, it was pretty scud-ish:

weather_zpse5d38007.jpg
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Heck, that's a nice day for pipeline, plenty of vis below and a nice layer to keep you from roasting in the plane.
 
Henning said:
Underneath you're good to go. I'm not quite sure how you handle Class G IFR like that or if it's technically possible. It's not something I would choose to take off into, but it's kind of a grey area that's the basis of a lot of "Roll your own" approaches into ranch strips and such. I hesitate to call it IFR because it's not really covered under the Rules. Can you be self directed in the clouds in Class G? It's a contentious point, but I don't recall a rule against it. With SVT and ADS-B though this is the future of ATC, has always been since the NextGen concept began. "Free flight" and "HITS" is the plan, traffic and terrain avoidance info being aircraft system based.
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Indeed. Some things like this still really grey. I mean, IFR makes is easy with no worries about being out-of-bounds rule-wise. It's not a great idea, but then again, it's not technically illegal either. As an IFR pilot, I dread the idea of someone departing a field into the scud like this when I'm trying to enter or leave the scud to the same field and neither myself or ATC is really aware.

Prior to getting my rating, I had a few run-ins with "low flight" around the airport and encountering lowering conditions enroute over uncongested and non-mountainous terrain. Always went to the closest airport for a precautionary landing though and occasionally left via rental car. Never really explored or discussed it much though. However, I am working on a draft IFR handbook for my students and found myself thinking more on the subject as I started reviewing "Special VFR." It's really just flying with Class G vis. and cloud clearance requirements, only on an ATC clearance. Other than entering Class B airspace, that's the only other time a VFR pilot really needs a clearance from ATC.
 
bullwinkle said:
It all depends. My usual rule is 1500ft ceilings, that gives me 1000AGL with 500ft cloud clearance. If the circumstances are right I'd push that down a bit, but only with caution.
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It was a joke. Reference to the Preplanned Ferry Permit thread that has departed controlled flight.
 
Now this is the kind of day I love taking my new instrument students up into. I had this one guy back in early 2013 from Miami...never flew in a cloud. First mission, I launched him into a 700' overcast with light rain. Didn't see daylight again for over an hour. He took it like a champ. Since then he's gotten his commercial and is working on his multi with an eye for CFI. He'll do well too and I have gained another pilot friend in Florida.
If you're out there...Hey Ivan!
 
I delivered a plane a few years back from N TX to Indy on Memorial weekend. I wanted to do the delivery cuz I could go to the 500 race for free. As soon as I hit Tulsa it was 12-1400' AGL solid overcast. I called FS and asked them if there was anything better between me and Indy, and they said it's the same stuff all across the central midwest. So, I'm just motoring along around 8-900', looking at cows, and barns, and fields for miles and miles. Few stops for gas, and more cows, barns fields interspersed by a couple of towers to dodge.

Clear of clouds, avoid the built up cities and it wasn't so bad. Not very good fuel econ, but hey - I saw the race, and had a good enough time.
 
docmirror said:
I delivered a plane a few years back from N TX to Indy on Memorial weekend. I wanted to do the delivery cuz I could go to the 500 race for free. As soon as I hit Tulsa it was 12-1400' AGL solid overcast. I called FS and asked them if there was anything better between me and Indy, and they said it's the same stuff all across the central midwest. So, I'm just motoring along around 8-900', looking at cows, and barns, and fields for miles and miles. Few stops for gas, and more cows, barns fields interspersed by a couple of towers to dodge.

Clear of clouds, avoid the built up cities and it wasn't so bad. Not very good fuel econ, but hey - I saw the race, and had a good enough time.
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I guess most planes will slow down well enough to easily see the bad stuff coming. I can run my airplane at 60kt easily, and the world goes by pretty slowly at those speeds. Though that does keep you under the scud for more clock time.
 
I believe it makes a big difference "where" you do it. three pilots this week in the north west showed us that is not the place.
 
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