Scared silly in a GA plane.
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dell30rb
Final Approach
Hold the airplane at your normal climb attitude, power and airspeed, and wait for it to dissipate. Usually you'll fly out of it or into an updraft in a relatively short time.
In my case I was several thousand feet agl and not quite to the mountains yet. I had airports below and behind me... had the downdraft continued or gotten stronger I was ready to 180. Since I had plenty of fuel I would probably have gone back till I got out of the downdraft, climbed wayy up high and then headed back for the mountains.
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Anthony
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Anthony
Clear air turbs? Rotors? Were you near any mountains? Not talking about those hills in PA or WV either. Actual mountains.
AdamZ
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Adam Zucker
Out west they recommend crossing mountains at an angle 45* or somthing rather than straight on. Makes it easier to turn back
Clear air turbs? Rotors? Were you near any mountains? Not talking about those hills in PA or WV either. Actual mountains.
He is in NC. NC has the highest point east of the Mssissippi.
Anthony
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AdamZ
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I thought "he" was in Jersey? Highest elevation is like 14 ft or something.
Yeah thats why they call it Cherry HILL
dell30rb
Final Approach
Yup if I had flown direct I would have gone right over Mt. Mitchell, 6,600. Since I had the headwind and downdrafts I picked another route that would take me to the right of the big mountain.
Coming home I flew directly over the mountain at 11,500 with a nice 160kt groundspeed.
I'm going to be making this trip soon in a 152.. really hope I don't get those headwinds again.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
redtail
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Hahaha I did that on my first flight practicing stalls. I pushed the yoke full forward at the stall break!
CFI recovered, talked me through the process again and had me try another one. Did the same damn thing a second time..lol. At that point he decided that was enough for the day. Scared the crap out of myself seeing a windshield of earth. When he landed, I was sweating bullets. Started wondering if I was cut out for this flying stuff after all...lol. Next lesson a few days later, it all clicked. That was the scariest thing I've experienced in an airplane.
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Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
Reading these stories, it's clear that at 300 hours I haven't truly paid my dues yet. Hopefully fate will accept small easy payments...
bigblockz8
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Gore
Scariest flight...The one time I rode with CAP in a 182. My friend was assigned to move the aircraft from the avionics shop and I hitched a ride with him and a cadet with a CPL. On the way home I fell asleep and woke up while they were doing accelerated stalls. I nearly lost my breakfast and bladder thanks to G's. Never heard an airplane sound like a 2-33 glider boxing the wake.
They wanted to do a spin but luckily 2/3 of us said, and I quote, "H*LL NO!"
I've never flown with that friend again. May not sound like much of a flight of terror but anyone who has ever boxed wake and knows the sound and sensations might get why I didn't like it.
Worth noting that Vne and G's have a way of disagreeing, one has to be broken first.
They wanted to do a spin but luckily 2/3 of us said, and I quote, "H*LL NO!"
I've never flown with that friend again. May not sound like much of a flight of terror but anyone who has ever boxed wake and knows the sound and sensations might get why I didn't like it.
Worth noting that Vne and G's have a way of disagreeing, one has to be broken first.
denverpilot
Tied Down
So how did you "ride" with CAP? There is a lot of paperwork involved in getting a non-member on board, which has to be approved by the Wing Commander or higher. (Doesn't pass the smell test, unless your friend was breaking regulations, or you were a member.)
saracelica
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saracelica
I think I've shared this somewhere else....but I got the crap scared out of me. A friend got his license with our flying club and got checked out by the scariest/toughest DPE around. He eventually bought a POS 150/152 airplane. He called it "his pickup truck" He found it just as reliable. Anywho, he calls asks if I want to go up and around the area. Sure why not...so what direction shall we go. I chose West since I always go to the East in training flights. So we get strapped in he taxies up with a radio that was original to the airplane (1970's?) the GPS isn't current (which it doesn't have to be but I'm use to having one) and we go back taxi on the runway (nice mid morning 10a but not busy) he points to a certain point on the runway and says this is where I usually take off from and he continues back taxing. Full throttle off we go. We get to the "point" and he pulls back on the yoke. All I could think was "Plane wasn't ready yet! You got an extra 200lbs in here!!!" but the plane told him (with the stall horn) We go up and get Flight Following with KTOL. We're going along and he notices the clouds getting lower "I'll just pop over them real quick" I'm sure several other red flags occured before this point but I protested and said "That's okay why don't we just go back I forgot I have something I got to do and I can't get stuck somewhere" He claimed he couldn't either but he suggested again about "popping over the clouds" I protested louder and eventually he turned the POS plane around. We landed but I had my eyes closed on short final all the way to the ground. I kissed the ground when we got back (literally!) I swore I'd never fly with him again. I wonder if he knows how stupid the comment was....
Was a little nervous flying with this other guy who has a Saratoga. He never "called out" Gear down like the other people who fly the airplane. I wondered for about 15 seconds if we were going to land on the belly of the plane. We didn't. I'm quite particular who I fly with - no point in ending up dead over a sightseeing tour.
Was a little nervous flying with this other guy who has a Saratoga. He never "called out" Gear down like the other people who fly the airplane. I wondered for about 15 seconds if we were going to land on the belly of the plane. We didn't. I'm quite particular who I fly with - no point in ending up dead over a sightseeing tour.
jesse
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I fly plenty of 1970 150s with expired gps databases or generally no gps at all and I wouldn't call them a "pos". As far as the degree of concern with regards to the clouds I'd have had to see it.
I dont know how popping over clouds or not having someone say "gear down" is going to kill you. There are typically lights in an airplane and a big lever that says "DOWN" that should be quite obvious.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Incorrect... Although, as with most things in aviation, "It depends."
In general, the answer is to *decrease* pitch which seems counterintuitive... But what goes up must come down and vice versa. A "normal climb attitude" is at a relatively slow airspeed, and if you cannot outclimb the downdraft, you want to get out of it as quickly as possible, so you pitch down and increase your airspeed. Then, when you reach an updraft you pitch up, decreasing airspeed, so that you stay in the updraft portion longer.
Your altitude will be all over the place, but you'll end up with a net gain in energy from the up and downdrafts, vs. a net loss in energy if you maintain a constant altitude or neutral if you maintain a constant attitude/airspeed.
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
I hit them from time to time. I set a specific point of decision at which time I must execute a sharp turn away from the terrain, no excuses. Usually I'm flying at 45 to the ridge already, just for this eventuality. I also go to Vx (at our altitudes it's close to Vy anyway) and watch the oil, but that's not important. The important point is not to get boxed into a situation when there is no escape, by way of wishful thinking.
P.S. Kent is considering an entirely different scenario when maneuvering away from the ridge that generates the wave in question.
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TangoWhiskey
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You mean I can't tell about the times I scared the poop out of MYSELF?
Can you list such an airplane as "no accident history" when you sell it??
AdamZ
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Adam Zucker
Wow not sure I've ever seen a necro post come back to life so vigorously!
Aztec Driver
Line Up and Wait
Sitting in the backseat with two pilots up front, Mr. PIC and owner of the club Tiger decides he wants to practice his instrument scan and proceeds to cover up the entire left side of the cockpit windscreens with paper charts, nearly blocking all areas for the other two of us to see. All of this in reasonably busy eastern Maryland airspace. After what seemed an eternity of not being able to see traffic, we finally convinced him to remove the paper.
Then he proceeds to enter the traffic pattern to Easton inside the pattern of a 172 that was already flying the pattern. Makes every turn inside the 172 until final, where he ends up turning just behind them. The Tiger is faster than the 172' so we are catching up to him, all the while flying the entire final leg with the stall horn blaring. I was expecting the high gravity well of the trailer park on final to suck us in, but it never did. If the 172 had not done a touch and go, we would have been on the runway at the same time within 500 feet.
Never again.
Also scared myself in an inadvertant thunderstorm penetration.
Never again.
Then he proceeds to enter the traffic pattern to Easton inside the pattern of a 172 that was already flying the pattern. Makes every turn inside the 172 until final, where he ends up turning just behind them. The Tiger is faster than the 172' so we are catching up to him, all the while flying the entire final leg with the stall horn blaring. I was expecting the high gravity well of the trailer park on final to suck us in, but it never did. If the 172 had not done a touch and go, we would have been on the runway at the same time within 500 feet.
Never again.
Also scared myself in an inadvertant thunderstorm penetration.
Never again.
Aztec Driver
Line Up and Wait
Wow, didn't notice the dates, darn. I posted this stuff in this same thread two years ago.
dell30rb
Final Approach
I had not considered that. However in my case i think I did well just maintaining Vy and firewalling it. Had i sped up I would have been going down at 1000fpm, not comfortable when you have mountains filling your windscreen. I may try that technique sometime when flying solo.
zaitcev
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Please don't do it, do what I said instead. Kent's technique is what you use against flatland microburst though - because if you exit its shaft at Vy and enter the dispersal area, suddenly you have a massive tailwind which may even stall you.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
For the given scenario, thousands of feet above the ridge, I think lowering the nose is likely the correct solution - But without being in the cockpit, it's impossible to tell. But the question was about attitude, and lowering the nose in a downdraft is highly counterintuitive but often helpful.
Like I said, "it depends." There are so many different possibilities to this scenario that it's impossible to say what the right thing to do is every time. The surrounding terrain, the vertical speed of the downdraft, and the lateral size of the downdraft all go into the equation for what the "right thing to do" is. And the lateral size of the downdraft is something you'll have to guess based on terrain, winds aloft, time of day, sun angle, etc unless there's precip or other visible stuff in the air too.
For crossing a ridge, definitely do it at a 45... And it'd be a good idea to take a full-on mountain flying course to learn all the other things to do. I highly recommend Mountain Canyon Flying in McCall, ID - It was an awesome experience, with both lots of learning and lots of fun. And until I did that, I had no idea how much I didn't know before. If you're going to fly around terrain, it's a good thing to do.
dell30rb
Final Approach
I was already 3000 feet above the ridge when i got the downdraft and i was 15 miles from it.
Crossing the appalachian mountains at a 45 seems a bit conservative. Might even be worse because it will increase the time you are over the rough terrain
denverpilot
Tied Down
15 miles is a long way out to be executing an escape plan but that depends a lot on the size and depth of the mountain wave.
What were the winds aloft that day?
Now that you've shared how far away and how high you were, you weren't in close enough to the terrain to even be needing mountain flying techniques, really.
The 45 degree rule is for pass crossings in good weather when you're on "final approach" to the pass and want to make sure you don't have to make a complete 180 degree turn to take your "out" toward lower terrain. Usually utilized for crossings much lower than 3000' AGL. Typically 1000'. If the aircraft is struggling and weather is perfect, 500'.
15 miles out and 3000' up, you were experiencing mountain weather (mountain wave) but not doing mountain flying.
Typically, being surprised by a weather phenomenon that big means there was a lack of weather prep before leaving the ground in respect to what wind does over any major ridgeline. That 1000'/min also could have easily turned into 1000'/min upward if you were on the upwind side.
Picture the rocks and boulders in a stream the last time you watched some kayakers or tubers floating past in whitewater. The dips and leaks, valleys and swirls of the water over and around the big rocks. Kayak getting "stuck" on the upriver side of a boulder. Or getting slammed in a wave that "stands" behind the boulder and doesn't dissipate or flow downstream.
Water over rocks, and large areas of wind over mountain ranges act quite similar. Now you're in your airplane "paddling" upstream. Where are you going to get "rocked" and be in the downdraft? Is there an updraft ahead when "paddling" downstream? After you cross that boulder are you going to get slammed down into a hole on the other side?
This "visualization" and "feel" for the wind is the biggest reason to do a mountain checkout with a very experienced mountain instructor. They've seen it. Know where the swirls are. Etc.
In your case, you seem to have been caught off guard by a much bigger phenomenon -- the winds aloft charts plus a knowledge of what angle to those winds the mountain range was, would have been a pre-flight red-flag (or an invitation to go soaring for the non-powered mountain wave glider junkies) before departure that big sustained updrafts on the windward side and downdrafts on the leeward side, were likely.
It gets easier to "see" it on the charts with practice, and a few flights like yours where you go home and pull up the charts and say "where did that huge downdraft come from?"
There's a reason the word air is in airmanship!
Gotta learn what the atmosphere is doing...
dell30rb
Final Approach
Winds aloft were over 55 kts at 10,500.
I was on the leeward side, so I initiated the climb early. I was expecting strong updrafts and downdrafts near the mountains due to the strong winds so my goal was to get way up high early. I was in no danger however I was surprised to catch a strong downdraft like that so far from the mountains. By climbing early I was hoping to avoid them altogether.
I was on the leeward side, so I initiated the climb early. I was expecting strong updrafts and downdrafts near the mountains due to the strong winds so my goal was to get way up high early. I was in no danger however I was surprised to catch a strong downdraft like that so far from the mountains. By climbing early I was hoping to avoid them altogether.
denverpilot
Tied Down
ROFL! Yup... 55 knots at 10,500... that was likely mountain wave. Wheeee...
15 miles away like that, you could have been in just the first of many waves...
There's a natural "waveform" (I bet someone here knows the math) for any particular height of obstruction and wind speed, but you may have continued another 5 miles or so and then found yourself in the updraft part of it, going up as fast as you went down.
The problem is... then you might have found the next downdraft in closer -- and it could be even more violent or just stronger... or just "more of the same".
Most folks won't go West of here in a single into the Rockies if the winds aloft are over 25. And that's high for some, even. I've heard everything from 15-25, but never higher.
I won't claim to be an expert on YOUR mountains, though -- you'd have to talk to some local folks for that. Sometimes when mountain wave sets up, there's some places where the mountains have natural gaps that break it up a bit, and ways to enter it to have it help you do all that climbing you wanted, and put you in a nice position to break out of the top of it and turn into the massive headwind to get over to the other side. Just depends on topography and wind speed and direction.
Was there any visible moisture that day for clues/cues? Rotor clouds just off the face of the mountain range? Visible waves or standing lenticular above or ahead of your downdraft location? Sometimes you can visibly see the waves, if the clouds and moisture levels help out a bit.
Amazing if you think about how much air moving it takes to measure 55 knots of it going by (if you were suddenly, magically on a platform at 10,500' standing there getting blown by a 55 knot wind), and how it interacts with the terrain below as it smashes toward the low pressure that was somewhere behind you, in your case. Huge forces at play. A 3000 lb. airplane is just a bathtub floaty toy to that kind of air moving along.
Jay Honeck
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When I was a young, new pilot, I had a good friend who was a young, new CFI. He knew I would fly anytime, anywhere, and would often call me if to ride along if he had an interesting flight planned. We had many great times.
One day he asked me to be "ballast" in the back of a guy's Cherokee 180. The owner was an older student pilot (way older than me then, but way younger than me now) who was "getting close" to his checkride.
Sure, why not? Bad move.
This guy absolutely could not land. He came in hot. He came in slow. He flared too high. It was clear, from my terrifying position in the back seat, that he did not have any feel for the plane at all -- but it was his plane to break.
The last landing of the day was truly more of a crash. He flared waaaay high, we inevitably got slow, my brain is screaming "power!" -- and my CFI friend is just sitting there, with his hands in his lap! I'm trying to raise the plane with my sphincter, to no avail -- and then the bottom drops out completely....
WHAM! I have never hit so hard, ever, before or since. We ballooned back up into the air, much to my amazement (I thought for sure the struts would come through the wings) -- and we got slow AGAIN. WHAM! Back down.
This time it stuck. There were no pilot-induced-oscillations, because we were fully stalled. I was scared to death, and absolutely FURIOUS at my CFI friend for just SITTING THERE AND LETTING IT HAPPEN.
Over beers later I laid into him. He apologized, but said that he'd tried everything to get this guy ready for the check ride, and he just could not get him to land properly. He was hoping that my extra 190 pounds would "help him flare"...and he figured it was the guy's own plane, so WTF?
NEVER AGAIN!
One day he asked me to be "ballast" in the back of a guy's Cherokee 180. The owner was an older student pilot (way older than me then, but way younger than me now) who was "getting close" to his checkride.
Sure, why not? Bad move.
This guy absolutely could not land. He came in hot. He came in slow. He flared too high. It was clear, from my terrifying position in the back seat, that he did not have any feel for the plane at all -- but it was his plane to break.
The last landing of the day was truly more of a crash. He flared waaaay high, we inevitably got slow, my brain is screaming "power!" -- and my CFI friend is just sitting there, with his hands in his lap! I'm trying to raise the plane with my sphincter, to no avail -- and then the bottom drops out completely....
WHAM! I have never hit so hard, ever, before or since. We ballooned back up into the air, much to my amazement (I thought for sure the struts would come through the wings) -- and we got slow AGAIN. WHAM! Back down.
This time it stuck. There were no pilot-induced-oscillations, because we were fully stalled. I was scared to death, and absolutely FURIOUS at my CFI friend for just SITTING THERE AND LETTING IT HAPPEN.
Over beers later I laid into him. He apologized, but said that he'd tried everything to get this guy ready for the check ride, and he just could not get him to land properly. He was hoping that my extra 190 pounds would "help him flare"...and he figured it was the guy's own plane, so WTF?
NEVER AGAIN!
Clark1961
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This should probably be in a new thread.
Using the winds aloft at the peaks as part of a go/no go decision has proved interesting. I've found myself in unforecast winds much higher than the rule-of-thumb 30 knots (or somewhere between 15 and 25 for the numbers above). I get actual winds from the ADC in the Aspen so I've got a little different perspective than the typical light GA aircraft in the hills.
I've taken a couple different approaches and continued the flight. In one case I just kept climbing to 16,500. I figured IFR MEAs were probably a good minimum altitude. In another case, when I was low on oxygen, I just got low. Down around 1,000 AGL. I could see standing clouds above me and didn't want any part of that at all. It was a bumpy ride but nothing more than continuous light (no objects flying around the cockpit). I just stayed away (laterally) from the standing clouds and didn't get into anything violent.
What I've learned is that the winds aloft guideline is good for planing but the actual winds can be quite different and challenging.
I have encountered significant mountain wave. It's concerning because the rotors can be below it. On the other hand, there may be no rotors. Certainly the presence of rotor clouds tells one to stay away from those altitudes & locations. I'm coming around to the thought that just staying away from the visible rotors is probably a fairly safe way to fly on those days. It won't be a smooth ride but it probably won't be dangerous. Note that I still plan flights using the 30 kt at the peaks maximum. I just think there may be ways to deal with higher than forecast winds. Maybe need to factor in temp/dewpoint spread info from real or synthetic soundings to know how likely clouds are to form in the rotors.
Anthony
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Yep. If you take the CPA Mountain Flying Course, they advise that, and for a good reason as you know. There is no reason to push it through the mountains with higher winds and/or questionable weather. Most of our little planes are marginal performers at altitudes above 10K feet, and what some people don't remember is that while a rock may be a rock, your plane performs a lot less at 12,500 Ft (or higher) than 5,000 Ft.
The only time I got a little nervous around the mountains was flying under virga on the eastern side of Pikes Peak. Never, freaking again.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I flew around the mountains in small airplanes when the winds were higher than 15-25 but like Clark I sometimes climbed higher (the airplanes were turbocharged). The worst turbulence I have experienced, though, was trying to do mapping jobs in locations on the lee side of the hills at lower altitudes in higher winds when I should have given up.
dell30rb
Final Approach
None that day, it was dry and cold air. I wound up being able to climb to 10,500 and cross in smooth air. That's like 5,000ft above the highest peak, because I also deviated to the right to avoid Mt. Mitchell (highest east of Mississippi). I wouldn't have crossed at a lower altitude with winds like that, especially after getting hit with the downdraft at 8000 feet.
I did get the "wave" updraft next, I had a 500 fpm boost for a minute or so.