https://www.firstcoastnews.com/arti...rsday/77-06a7bff8-53f0-4bac-b9bd-1614550b4404
in my neck of the woods. I don't know anything more about it though
in my neck of the woods. I don't know anything more about it though
Saint Augustine FL, (KSGJ) 3/23/23
- Thread starter Brad W
- Start date
the only update I've seen is that both passengers are (or at least were) in the hospital with extensive injuries...and the dog was being treated by a vet.
and they were taking off from the short runway
and they were taking off from the short runway
Kenny Phillips
Final Approach
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2018
- Messages
- 5,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Kenny Phillips
2,400' runway, takeoff run listed in book as 1100', so should have been plenty. Made it about 1/3 nm from the end of the runway.
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
It seems KSGJ gets more than its share of aviation incidents. Or am I wrong?
sourdough44
En-Route
Capngrog
Pre-takeoff checklist
You aren't wrong. Here's a list of the ones I recall:
- 06/29/2022; C-152 on an instructional flight - two fatalities;
- 03/02/2022; Extra NG - one fatality;
- 03/23/2023; Piper Malibu, the subject of this thread. Fortunately there were not fatalities resulting from this one.
TrueCourse
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2019
- Messages
- 944
- Display Name
Display name:
TrueCourse
This accident sparked my curiosity because it wasn't big news like some accidents. I missed this thread until now.
Winds at SGJ were reported 140@10 during taxi out and 140@12 before takeoff. Temp about 25C. He requested RWY 24. It looks like the pilot normally used RWY 13 or RWY 31. I only can see a few landings on RWY 24, and no takeoffs on RWY 24 looking back as far as last summer. So, it was not routine to use that runway. He taxied out of the hangars near taxiways D4 and D southwest side of airport. RWY 13 was active.
RWY 24 is 2701'. There is a short perimeter fence and a light pole after takeoff before the highway, and according to the AFD numerous trees 742' from DER left and right of centerline, up to 100 feet AGL (trees look shorter straight down the centerline).
I haven't flown the Malibu Mirage but looked up a few performance numbers. I only saw data for Flaps 0 or Flaps 20, but not 10. Operators of this type can speak to the real world view of this takeoff.
For FLAPS 0 and 4000 lb TOW (fuel tanks about 1/2 full) the performance graphs show ground roll of 1675' or 1825' (roughly) using the tailwind of 3KT (per reported wind) or tailwind of 5KT (as an example). If FLAPS 0 and Max TOW ground roll is shown as 1875' to 2025', depending on tailwind component noted above.
For FLAPS 0 and 4000 lb TOW the graphs show takeoff distance over 50' obstacle of 2900' to 3025' (roughly) depending on tailwinds as noted above. If FLAPS 0 and Max TOW it's 3200' to 3300',depending on tailwind component.
For FLAPS 20, no matter the weight, the graphs show ground roll of 1325' to 1425' depending on tailwind (3KT or 5KT) and T/O over 50' obstacle of 2500' to 2625.
I ask myself, did he think about the crosswind component more than the tailwind component? Did he realize the significant impact of the tailwind for the takeoff and actually use the charts? Were flaps 0, 10 or 20 used? Was it a rolling or static start to the takeoff?
The pilot and passenger survived, their dog eventually died. I also saw a story about them loosing their son in a car accident a little over 10 years ago.
Winds at SGJ were reported 140@10 during taxi out and 140@12 before takeoff. Temp about 25C. He requested RWY 24. It looks like the pilot normally used RWY 13 or RWY 31. I only can see a few landings on RWY 24, and no takeoffs on RWY 24 looking back as far as last summer. So, it was not routine to use that runway. He taxied out of the hangars near taxiways D4 and D southwest side of airport. RWY 13 was active.
RWY 24 is 2701'. There is a short perimeter fence and a light pole after takeoff before the highway, and according to the AFD numerous trees 742' from DER left and right of centerline, up to 100 feet AGL (trees look shorter straight down the centerline).
I haven't flown the Malibu Mirage but looked up a few performance numbers. I only saw data for Flaps 0 or Flaps 20, but not 10. Operators of this type can speak to the real world view of this takeoff.
For FLAPS 0 and 4000 lb TOW (fuel tanks about 1/2 full) the performance graphs show ground roll of 1675' or 1825' (roughly) using the tailwind of 3KT (per reported wind) or tailwind of 5KT (as an example). If FLAPS 0 and Max TOW ground roll is shown as 1875' to 2025', depending on tailwind component noted above.
For FLAPS 0 and 4000 lb TOW the graphs show takeoff distance over 50' obstacle of 2900' to 3025' (roughly) depending on tailwinds as noted above. If FLAPS 0 and Max TOW it's 3200' to 3300',depending on tailwind component.
For FLAPS 20, no matter the weight, the graphs show ground roll of 1325' to 1425' depending on tailwind (3KT or 5KT) and T/O over 50' obstacle of 2500' to 2625.
I ask myself, did he think about the crosswind component more than the tailwind component? Did he realize the significant impact of the tailwind for the takeoff and actually use the charts? Were flaps 0, 10 or 20 used? Was it a rolling or static start to the takeoff?
The pilot and passenger survived, their dog eventually died. I also saw a story about them loosing their son in a car accident a little over 10 years ago.
Last edited:
sourdough44
En-Route
Nice plane also, recently repainted. Yes, if he started by D4, seems like no biggie to go to 13, even at that B1 intersection. On 24 it looks like he would have to back-taxi to get to full length.
I know it’s cooler here in WI, often I want the oil warmed up a fair bit anyway. For the most part, when wind is over 5 knots I try to put it as a headwind, as able. I realize it all depends on particulars, but just a general operating rule.
I know it’s cooler here in WI, often I want the oil warmed up a fair bit anyway. For the most part, when wind is over 5 knots I try to put it as a headwind, as able. I realize it all depends on particulars, but just a general operating rule.
TrueCourse
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2019
- Messages
- 944
- Display Name
Display name:
TrueCourse
Yes, it was a nice looking airplane. Beautiful paint job and that hangar is sweet. It appears from the tapes he did back taxi for full-length takeoff.
sourdough44
En-Route
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/106948/pdf
The prelim is out, only 2 onboard, but still short on performance?? A slight tailwind, a little crosswind. The witness said it sounded like it was making full power, then describes a wallowing stall after liftoff?
The prelim is out, only 2 onboard, but still short on performance?? A slight tailwind, a little crosswind. The witness said it sounded like it was making full power, then describes a wallowing stall after liftoff?
Himayeti
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2022
- Messages
- 119
- Display Name
Display name:
Himayeti
I have some 1000 hours on a Mirage and I would have never considered a runway that short for takeoff, especially with a slight tailwind!
Airplanes have the nasty habit of following their design limitations.
And in this case, as per the calcs above, they were pushing the Malibu's envelope and ended up damaging their new paint job.
Airplanes have the nasty habit of following their design limitations.
And in this case, as per the calcs above, they were pushing the Malibu's envelope and ended up damaging their new paint job.