Safety Pilot - Typical Cost Share?

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SethV

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SethV
Hi All - working on my instrument, still need a fair number of hood hours. When you fly with a safety pilot, what is the normal protocol in your experience? Does your saftey pilot ever chip in $, or since you need them to be there do you usually give them a free ride? Just wonder what is the norm - thanks!
 
Unless you're both swapping legs and building time, safety pilot doesn't pay. The way I see it, my safety pilot is doing me a favor.

Usually my safety pilots are other CFIs, so we'll log it as instruction given and everyone logs PIC time. I'll return the favor if they need to fly some approaches, and since I brought along the plane and bought the gas, they usually pick up lunch.
 
You mean I have been getting robbed out of a free lunch?
 
You pay for the meal,and thank the safety pilot for his time. The safety pilot is doing you the favor.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
this....and don't be cheap either. :rofl:
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You mean no dollar menu? :dunno:

Thanks for the input guys, its what I was thinking. Had a guy offer to help with costs, but like you all said he is helping me out and it feels weird to take his money. Maybe if we both get some hood time it would be ok, but if its just me getting the time I think I will cover it.
 
I have neither given nor received lunch, but the usual cost splitting algorithm I use is according to "sole manipulator" time. Almost always, that means the left seat pays it all.

There is one time a time-builder asked to cost-split, with her in the left seat under the hood. I politely declined. I'm not in the business of buying PIC time.
 
In all the times I've done it (which isn't a lot) the safety pilot gets a free ride. On one longer day I bought us both dinner after. I need the time for my rating, they don't.
 
A *real* big bonus the safety pilot gets, at least around here, is a really nice view. It's hard to turn down a free sightseeing flight. :D And I don't turn them down unless I really have to.
 
Safety pilot rides free, acts as PIC, gets to log time as PIC (in addition to the sole manipulator) which is defined as compensation by the FAA...

And around and around we go.
 
I got paid with the best 6 pack of home-brewed beer I've ever had. Did some for a POA member and got lunch. If I really get to do the IR myself I suppose I'll be buying lots of lunches.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Safety pilot rides free,
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Typically, and the FAA Chief Counsel has said that's fine.

acts as PIC,
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Only if that's agreed before flight between the two pilots involved, and that isn't typical. Normally, when a typical owner/pilot is flying under the hood and someone else is riding shotgun to meet 91.109(c), the owner/pilot flying is the PIC.

gets to log time as PIC (in addition to the sole manipulator)
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Only if acting as PIC in addition to being the safety pilot, which isn't typical. Usually, the safety pilot logs only SIC time.

which is defined as compensation by the FAA...
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Not in this case. The Chief Counsel has specifically said that the time accrued by a safety pilot is exempt from the requirement to pay.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Safety pilot rides free, acts as PIC, gets to log time as PIC (in addition to the sole manipulator) which is defined as compensation by the FAA...

And around and around we go.
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Someone actually asked Legal that question. No, no problematic compensation issue for the safety pilot since, at least while the flying pilot is under the hood, there are no passengers on board to trigger the pro rata requirement. (I sometimes wonder how people think up some of these questions, a wonder that is exceeded only by the bewilderment that the Chief Counsel's office actually answers some of them)

But what about the fraudulent and morally reprehensible "fake PIC" time? (And yes, before someone else chimes in to the party, the safety pilot isn't always entitled to log PIC)
 
I never pay, nor do I expect anyone to pay me when I need one. Typically logging of time is the only compensation involved, and yes, it has to be agreed upon in advance which it always is since it's pro forma.
 
MAKG1 said:
A *real* big bonus the safety pilot gets, at least around here, is a really nice view. It's hard to turn down a free sightseeing flight. :D And I don't turn them down unless I really have to.
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A flight as a safety pilot is not a nice sight-seeing trip for me. It is work. I have to constantly scan for traffic, birds, make sure we stay clear of clouds, provide simulated holding instructions or approach clearances etc. I wish it could be a sight-seeing trip but it really is work.
 
BigBadLou said:
A flight as a safety pilot is not a nice sight-seeing trip for me. It is work. I have to constantly scan for traffic, birds, make sure we stay clear of clouds, provide simulated holding instructions or approach clearances etc. I wish it could be a sight-seeing trip but it really is work.
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It *is* work. With a nice view. At a minimum, I'm scanning all the time -- that's what a safety pilot is for. But I do that on any trip for any reason.

Dodging clouds around here isn't all that difficult on a day when VFR flight is possible. When there are any clouds at all, they are all at one altitude, and generally with a very well defined edge.

Approach and hold clearances come from Approach, even VFR. Well, published holds do at least. Asking for a VFR practice approach with a "missed" generally takes care of that. They even give vectors to final if asked.
 
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SethV said:
Hi All - working on my instrument, still need a fair number of hood hours. When you fly with a safety pilot, what is the normal protocol in your experience? Does your saftey pilot ever chip in $, or since you need them to be there do you usually give them a free ride? Just wonder what is the norm - thanks!
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The safety pilot never plays. Since you need a lot of time, I'd recommend you ask if your instructor has any other students at the same point in training. Find one or two people in the same boat and then you can switch off flying under the hood and being safety pilot. It will help you more than you might think to observe someone else and you'll get a chance to see things like how CDI deflection translates to where the runway is in the windshield.
 
When I was in college me and other students would either split time half and half or split the cost of the logged time. I haven't seen anyone else do that anywhere but there. Now I typically do the guy under the hood flys and the safety pilot buys lunch at the destination. I feel bad making the guy paying for the plane buy me lunch too...
 
so uhhh......who needs a safety pilot? I know a great little place by Coalinga... :lol:
 
MAKG1 said:
It *is* work. With a nice view. At a minimum, I'm scanning all the time -- that's what a safety pilot is for. But I do that on any trip for any reason.

Dodging clouds around here isn't all that difficult on a day when VFR flight is possible. When there are any clouds at all, they are all at one altitude, and generally with a very well defined edge.

Approach and hold clearances come from Approach, even VFR. Well, published holds do at least. Asking for a VFR practice approach with a "missed" generally takes care of that. They even give vectors to final if asked.
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The amount of involvement ATC has in practice approaches, etc varies a lot with the part of the country and the airports being used.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The amount of involvement ATC has in practice approaches, etc varies a lot with the part of the country and the airports being used.
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We must be lucky then. The only difference between a practice approach and a real approach here is the words "remain VFR no separation services will be provided"
 
StinkBug said:
We must be lucky then. The only difference between a practice approach and a real approach here is the words "remain VFR no separation services will be provided"
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The variation also involves what pilots want to do and local culture.

Like you, I lived in an area where the use of ATC for practice approaches was very common - from both an ATC-wants and pilot-wants standpoint . I don't think I flew a practice approach for 20 years without ATC involvement.

Now I live an an less dense traffic area where one tends to use ATC services when practicing into our local Class C (and with "cleared for the approach" with separation services instead of "practice approach no separation services will be provided") but not often with the airports outside of the C boundaries. That allows the creation of all sorts of scenarios without having to bother ATC or give them a heads up or have them say "unable" due to traffic considerations.

So I have both options very close by and figure "lucky" is in the eye of the beholder.
 
MAKG1 said:
Nice try. No instrument approaches there.

If there were, every schmuck in the state would use it for their instrument cross country.
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LOL. The other day I overheard a discussion between a CFII and an instrument student with the CFI's lead-off question being "can you file an IFR flight plan to [an airport without an IAP]?" I didn't stick around but later I asked the instructor how it went. When he said it went well I asked whether he followed up with "when you get there can you make up your own instrument approach?"
 
TheGolfPilot said:
When I was in college me and other students would either split time half and half or split the cost of the logged time. I haven't seen anyone else do that anywhere but there. Now I typically do the guy under the hood flys and the safety pilot buys lunch at the destination. I feel bad making the guy paying for the plane buy me lunch too...
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Yeah, lunch usually is a separate agenda from the flight, I wouldn't expect someone that I'm doing safety for to buy me lunch.
 
midlifeflyer said:
LOL. The other day I overheard a discussion between a CFII and an instrument student with the CFI's lead-off question being "can you file an IFR flight plan to [an airport without an IAP]?" I didn't stick around but later I asked the instructor how it went. When he said it went well I asked whether he followed up with "when you get there can you make up your own instrument approach?"
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Well, for that particular place, you probably could make a sort of NDB approach using your nose. Home to the stink. Fly heading 330 descending into a procedure turn to the right, upon passing the stink again, the MAP is two miles at heading 150.

:)

That particular airport (3o8) has the world's largest pile of cow **** two miles northwest of the field.

You can file to an airport without an IAP as long as you have basic VFR minimums from the MEA to the surface -- and an alternate that meets minimums. Doesn't do much good for an instrument cross country where you have to make three instrument approaches, though.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Well, for that particular place, you probably could make a sort of NDB approach using your nose. Home to the stink. Fly heading 330 descending into a procedure turn to the right, upon passing the stink again, the MAP is two miles at heading 150.

:)

That particular airport (3o8) has the world's largest pile of cow **** two miles northwest of the field.
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Been to Greeley, Colorado? :yesnod: Of course, Greeley does have instrument approaches. But NDB (Nose Directional Beacon) can work :)
 
MAKG1 said:
Nice try. No instrument approaches there.

If there were, every schmuck in the state would use it for their instrument cross country.
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New Coalinga airport just a mile or two south west of harris ranch...lol.

All joking aside, I've had my ticket for about two weeks now....any chance that comes up to have my feet not firmly planted on the ground, I'm taking it :D
 
vkhosid said:
New Coalinga airport just a mile or two south west of harris ranch...lol.

All joking aside, I've had my ticket for about two weeks now....any chance that comes up to have my feet not firmly planted on the ground, I'm taking it :D
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"New" Coalinga doesn't have instrument approaches either. And unless you're in the oil industry, there is no reason to go there, ever. It's not a pleasant place.

The nearest airport that does is Lemoore NAS. The nearest civilian airport with an instrument approach is Paso Robles. REAL far, and on the wrong side of a mountain range.
 
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If the hooded pilot needs the instrument work then the safety pilot is performing a favor and doesn't pay. If the hooded pilot doesn't need instrument time and is performing the flight so that both pilots can build time more cheaply then some cost-splitting would be appropriate (e.g. proportional based on how much time each pilot can log).
 
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