Safety Pilot Logging
- Thread starter Somedudeintn
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Somedudeintn
Cleared for Takeoff
CFI's don't log any instruction time with a PPL or higher, they can act as PIC and fly the plane.
Pilots, don't log any time that an autopilot is engaged.
Don't log any time taxiing the airplane to takeoff or after landing.
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
And there lies the problem. In my opinion, one shouldn't log PIC unless they are acting as PIC. I do realize it may be legal anytime you are sole manipulator, but I don't think that cuts the mustard morality wise.
In your example of safety pilot, fine. If you are safety pilot, and responsible for safety of flight, by all means log PIC.
There was a long-time member, either here or the Red Board, who argued exactly that, that allowing CFIs to log PIC time was strictly to allow time-building, and thereby decreased the overall quality of instruction.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
I wouldn't say it reduces the quality of instruction. What it should do is reduce the cost of instruction, by providing an additional, if non-monetary, form of compensation to the CFI/CFII. How much is that logging-time worth to a CFI/CFII? I honestly don't know, but for many, it's not zero.
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Greg Bockelman
So now following the rules is immoral?
We all know what Kritchlow's OPINION is on that. It is just his OPINION and has NOTHING to do with reality. OPINIONS from random individuals have no weight with regard to reality.
Kritchlow
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Not sure if this is suppose to be a dig, but in reality you are correct. It is only my opinion, and has no basis for what others should do.
It just seems like a very odd opinion to me. There have certainly been immoral laws throughout history, but while I'm sure that lying on an airline application would be immoral, there's nothing in the logging regulations that prevents pilots from keeping a record of whatever additional information is needed to fill out the application correctly.
Kritchlow
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True. As I said, it's only my opinion.
Example: The way I see it, it's odd for a First Officer at an airline to log PIC in the airliner on the legs he manipulated the controls.
If the concern is the possibility of misleading airlines about the type of experience he has, couldn't any ethical issue be handled by keeping separate columns for Part 61 PIC time and Part 1 PIC time (or whatever it is that airlines want to see)?
Of course it might be a bit odd. The First Officer on an airline hardly needs the additional PIC hours for FAA or job purposes or to convince an insurer to give him a better rate on insurance for the Bonanza he flies off-duty. If the time doesn't mean anything to anyone, including you, there's no reason to log it.
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Greg Bockelman
That is only legal if the FO is type rated in the airplane, if a type is required. I am typed in the 777 but chose not to log it as PIC because it was easier not to. At this stage of my career more PIC is kind of pointless. Besides, I am getting all I can stand now.
Somedudeintn
Cleared for Takeoff
I was just happy I could convince my CFI that my time spent working on my complex endorsement was PIC. He didn't agree at first then I referred him to 61.51 and the herman letter
I'm a low time pilot so I'm logging all the PIC time I'm entitled to.
I'm a low time pilot so I'm logging all the PIC time I'm entitled to.
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Jaybird180
Final Approach
FAR 61.51 states MUST, not MAY. IMO, we are required to log all the time we have earned.
Somedudeintn
Cleared for Takeoff
Sec. 61.51 — Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
I'm not expert, but I believe this reads that you only MUST document flight time that is used for a certificate, rating, flight review, or recency requirements. So I would think you don't need to document every flight, especially if you are not going after any additional ratings. You would just need to log enough to prove you are current.
Everskyward
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You are reading it correctly. There are plenty of people who don't log every flight. Some don't log at all and depend on company records to prove currency.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
Jaybird180
Final Approach
I agree with the interpretation that some may log aggregate times (acceptable by the administratior) if they are not seeking to advance their privileges. But they must still log it in some fashion even if its one aggregated line item per 90days.
I just read 61.51 for perhaps the thousandth time and the only logging "musts" I see are (1) we must log time being used to show qualification and (2) certain information must be entered about the flights we choose to log.
As in
==============================
Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
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and
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Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
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What are you seeing that tells you we must log everything?
Actually, the one I don't see is authority to aggregate flights without complying with the 61.51 requirement that one
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must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged [followed by a dozen or so items]
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(That doesn't contradict Everskyward's observation about company records to prove currency instead of a "logbook" published by Jepp, Gleim, ASA...)