Safety Pilot Compensation?

[kimberlyanne546]

Thanks, Ron. The last time this issue came up I was in the same situation and got two different answers from two CFI's because:

I did not have an HP endorsement

I did not have a taildragger endorsement

I did not have a complex endorsement

The taildragger pilot who had me act as a safety pilot a few months ago during 6 approaches - logged my name and even my PPL cert # in his log book. He encouraged me to log the time but I only log flights where I sit in the right seat for "fun" (as in, I want to remember the tail number and enter 0 for times).

The new pilot who I may fly with this week likely has an HP / Complex plane (I saw pictures, it has retractable gear I think). It is not a taildragger.

The only thing I need is:

Medical - current
PPL
(Not sure on this one) current BFR

 

[hopmedic]

No. There must be at least one rated pilot in the aircraft for there to be more than one person aboard legally, even in a 141 program.

Ok - that's what I thought.

As for more than one person aboard illegally, I could tell you stories...

Stories are fun, as long as the names are changed to protect the guilty innocent.

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks, Ron. The last time this issue came up I was in the same situation and got two different answers from two CFI's because:

I did not have an HP endorsement

I did not have a taildragger endorsement

I did not have a complex endorsement

The taildragger pilot who had me act as a safety pilot a few months ago during 6 approaches - logged my name and even my PPL cert # in his log book.

Name is required, cert # is not. See 61.51(b)(1)(v).

He encouraged me to log the time but I only log flights where I sit in the right seat for "fun" (as in, I want to remember the tail number and enter 0 for times).

I would strongly encourage you not to "log flights where I sit in the right seat for 'fun'" -- that creates the potential for all sorts of trouble. If you want to keep a separate journal of your flights just "for fun", mighty fine, but I urge you to leave that out of the official legal document which is your pilot logbook.

The new pilot who I may fly with this week likely has an HP / Complex plane (I saw pictures, it has retractable gear I think). It is not a taildragger.

Those 61.31 additional training endorsements are required only for the pilot acting as PIC. Since that's almost certainly not going to be you, there is no requirement for them to act just as safety pilot.

The only thing I need is:

Medical - current
PPL
(Not sure on this one) current BFR

The PPL must have the applicable category/class ratings (no acting as safety pilot in a twin until you get your ME rating), and if the flight is under IFR, the safety pilot must also have an appropriate Instrument rating (but need not be IFR-current if not acting as PIC). However, the flight review currency is applicable only to acting as PIC, so a non-PIC safety pilot doesn't need it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Stories are fun, as long as the names are changed to protect the guilty innocent.

Not when it's your trainee whose name is involved -- "Levy, are you sure you told him he couldn't do that?"

 

[Jaybird180]

If you're not a PP yet, then you can't have anyone aboard other than a CFI acting as an instructor (other than the DPE during your practical test). As a PP, you can have any properly-qualified pilot aboard to be your safety pilot, but that person cannot accept pay to be your safety pilot unless s/he is a CP or better (which a CFI must be) and has a Second Class medical (which not all CFI's have). OTOH, an instructor aboard to give instruction would be getting paid to give training, and being the safety pilot is only incidental to that task, so you can pay an instructor for training that includes hood time as long as that instructor has a Third Class or better.

Absolutely -- you are only required to log the time you need/want to use for meeting FAA requirements. You can fly all you want without logging it, as long as you log enough to meet any relevant FAA requirements.

No legal requirement for that. The pilot flying does have to record the safety pilot's name, and at least in theory, the FAA, if properly motivated, could go look for that safety pilot and ask if s/he really did act as your safety pilot, but I've never heard of that happening.

I was going to challenge this until I looked it up and saw the interchange of language in 61.51 for must vs may log time. It seems that logging is required of anyone in a training status only (including IR recency requirements). Is this enforceable solely by not giving applicable credit? IOW, If on a training flight and the trainee doesn't log it, can the FAA impose any type of sanction for failure to record the training?

 

[Jaybird180]

No. There must be at least one rated pilot in the aircraft for there to be more than one person aboard legally, even in a 141 program.

Since a 141 program must be approved to be used, if the school had it in the curriculum that two PP/IR combined trainees could serve as safety pilots to one another, why wouldn't this be legal?

 

[Jaybird180]

I would strongly encourage you not to "log flights where I sit in the right seat for 'fun'" -- that creates the potential for all sorts of trouble. If you want to keep a separate journal of your flights just "for fun", mighty fine, but I urge you to leave that out of the official legal document which is your pilot logbook.

A pilot sits right seat on a 150nm XC. Total trip time 1.5hrs (for simplicity).
The PIC says: "your airplane" during the enroute phase
Twelve minutes later says: "my airplane".

Why isn't it legal to log the flight in the category class column as 1.5 total time and 0.2 PIC (and of course 0.0 XC time)?

 

[poadeleted20]

I was going to challenge this until I looked it up and saw the interchange of language in 61.51 for must vs may log time. It seems that logging is required of anyone in a training status only (including IR recency requirements).

Nothing says that even a trainee has to log the time unless s/he wants to use it for certification or recent experience purposes. The penalty, such as it is, for a pilot failing to do so is merely the inability to use that time for such purposes. There are, of course, other issues for pilots in 135 and 121 operations, but that's a whole 'nother story.

Is this enforceable solely by not giving applicable credit? IOW, If on a training flight and the trainee doesn't log it, can the FAA impose any type of sanction for failure to record the training?

Since an instructor is required by 61.189 to sign the logbook of anyone to whom s/he gives training, then I suppose the instructor could be hit for not ensuring that the training given was properly recorded. However, that would not be a violation on the trainee's part, only a loss of valuable loggable time which could otherwise have been used to meet training requirements for whatever certificate/rating on which s/he is working.

 

[poadeleted20]

Since a 141 program must be approved to be used, if the school had it in the curriculum that two PP/IR combined trainees could serve as safety pilots to one another, why wouldn't this be legal?

Your question assumes facts not in evidence, to wit, that the FAA would approve such a curriculum. Rest assured, the FAA will not do that.

 

[poadeleted20]

A pilot sits right seat on a 150nm XC. Total trip time 1.5hrs (for simplicity).
The PIC says: "your airplane" during the enroute phase
Twelve minutes later says: "my airplane".

Why isn't it legal to log the flight in the category class column as 1.5 total time and 0.2 PIC (and of course 0.0 XC time)?

Insufficient data. Is the PIC under the hood? If so, how much of the time is the PIC under the hood? Is the pilot in the right seat "rated" on that aircraft?

 

[Jaybird180]

Insufficient data. Is the PIC under the hood? If so, how much of the time is the PIC under the hood? Is the pilot in the right seat "rated" on that aircraft?

Q1- Irrelevant
Q2- See Q1
Q3- Yes

 

[Jaybird180]

Your question assumes facts not in evidence, to wit, that the FAA would approve such a curriculum. Rest assured, the FAA will not do that.

I'm talking about the new 141 PP-IR program. Two "student" pilots with approx 80hrs TT

 

[poadeleted20]

Q1- Irrelevant

Yes, relevant.

Q2- See Q1

Also still relevant.

Q3- Yes

Then the right seater can log 0.2 hours PIC time, and no other 61.51 type time (unless they were in actual instrument conditions or the right seater was hooded, in which case the right seater could log 0.2 instrument, actual or simulated, as appropriate). Anything else depends on Q's 1 and 2, and a fourth question I forgot to ask -- are two pilots required by the aircraft type certificate or other regulation under which the flight is operating?

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm talking about the new 141 PP-IR program. Two "student" pilots with approx 80hrs TT

When you find a TCO which includes authorization for two PP/IR program trainees to fly together before either is "rated," you let me know. Until then, the question is not, as the courts would say, ripe.