Safety of GA flying

DaleB said:
Why? Automobile accidents caused by mechanical failure rather than driver error are also very rare. You'd be creating a very misleading statistic. Not that any of them are not potentially misleading to begin with.

What I'd love to see is statistics for GA accidents not involving gross stupidity.
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It would be interesting to understand what chunk of the statistics I had control over.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Interesting study. I'll accept that risk to fly:D
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And isn't that what it boils down to? There is no question there is risk. There is no question that nobody is immune from making a stupid mistake that could kill them. There is no question that GA is more risky than many other things and less risky than some. You go in with eyes open don't over state it don't under state it but understand it and act accordingly.

The reality in life is also that you may do everything right and still end up having a very bad day due to factors outside of your control.

Like they say the chances of winning the lottery are the same whether you buy a ticket or not out to the fifth or sixth decimal. :D
 
somorris said:
A lot of the activities we engage in have risks. Those who do the best job of risk management, have the highest probability of a safe outcome. When I take someone flying, I am not going to scare them by going into details of how dangerous it is. If I do, they would be foolish to get in the airplane :).
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I tell them what I know about the subject if they ask about it.
 
DFH65 said:
And isn't that what it boils down to? There is no question there is risk. There is no question that nobody is immune from making a stupid mistake that could kill them. There is no question that GA is more risky than many other things and less risky than some. You go in with eyes open don't over state it don't under state it but understand it and act accordingly.

The reality in life is also that you may do everything right and still end up having a very bad day due to factors outside of your control.

Like they say the chances of winning the lottery are the same whether you buy a ticket or not out to the fifth or sixth decimal. :D
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I think that some people may mistakenly talk themselves into denial about the risks and inherent danger involved. After all, "I've recieved training from a professional, and I've been signed off by a DPE who thinks I'm safe. My self-preservation instinct is strong, so I won't do anything stupid."

And then the pilot goes and does something stupid, due to complacency, or being forgetful, or some other reason... and ends up dead.

But yeah, it's very interesting how many pilots will say how safe it is, when it potentially isn't. I wonder why we defend it so vigorously sometimes.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I think that some people may mistakenly talk themselves into denial about the risks and inherent danger involved. After all, "I've recieved training from a professional, and I've been signed off by a DPE who thinks I'm safe. My self-preservation instinct is strong, so I won't do anything stupid."

And then the pilot goes and does something stupid, due to complacency, or being forgetful, or some other reason... and ends up dead.

But yeah, it's very interesting how many pilots will say how safe it is, when it potentially isn't. I wonder why we defend it so vigorously sometimes.
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If there is any hope at all of beating the odds, I think it's to remember that "I am capable of doing something stupid or unsafe, so I had better be on the lookout for it."
 
I have a quote posted on the wall of my garage, where I was building the RV:

Smart people do stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do them.
 
The safety level of most certified general aviation aircraft is totally dependent upon the pilot. When you are in a properly maintained airplane flown by a competent pilot within the aircraft's performance parameters and the framework of the regulations, there just isn't a very high likelihood of much happening to you. The problem is if you operate outside of any of those spheres all bets are off. Flying impaired, running out of gas, continued VFR into IMC, skimping on proper and timely maintenance, overloading/misloading, etc. are controllable and avoidable by the pilot. To put it another way... "Airplanes don't kill people, pilots kill people." So to answer your question, it pretty much depends upon you. If you're a jackwad in your car, boat, motorcycle, etc it's a pretty safe bet that you're going to be a jackwad in an airplane.
 
Problem is jackwad pilots are not an unique subset of pilots. We are all capable of being jackwad pilots on any given flight. To fly in denial of this is jackwadian.
 
As a newbie I have been battling this issue for quite a long time and I gave up learning how to fly in the past because of it. I heard all of the naysayers saying how dangerous it is and how this plane crashed and that plane crashed..etc.

I'm at the point in my life right now that I know I'm going to pass away either right now or in the future, (No known health concerns at this point). So why not enjoy the time that you are here? Instead of trying to avoid everything with the possibility of danger?

I noticed that EVERYTHING has some form of risk that can kill you, The restaurant that you went to where you didn't know what they were doing in the back to prepare your food has risk! Driving your car, glancing over at the passing lane and watching someone drive alone side of you with their sun visor down doing makeup while driving has risk too!

Long story short, I decided to become a Pilot despite the obvious dangers of flying. I rather die doing something I love to do instead of being on my deathbed wondering....why didn't I? The choice is yours. My humble opinion!
 
DaleB said:
Why? Automobile accidents caused by mechanical failure rather than driver error are also very rare. You'd be creating a very misleading statistic. Not that any of them are not potentially misleading to begin with.

What I'd love to see is statistics for GA accidents not involving gross stupidity.
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In a car you have a shoulder to pull over on not so in an airplane!
 
DaleB said:
I have a quote posted on the wall of my garage, where I was building the RV:

Smart people do stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do them.
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:thumbsup: I think I should frame that and put it on my wall!
 
ClimbnSink said:
Problem is jackwad pilots are not an unique subset of pilots. We are all capable of being jackwad pilots on any given flight. To fly in denial of this is jackwadian.
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So true, but it is possible to avoid it - just don't fly impaired, carry enough gas, don't fly overloaded or out of CG, know and respect your personal limitations and the limitations of your aircraft, etc. There, that wasn't so hard was it? One thing I've discovered over the past 50 years is that when some jackwad kills himself in an airplane it seldom comes as a big surprise to his pilot friends.

We're all susceptible to being stupid, but like I said, if you're a competent pilot flying a well maintained certified GA aircraft within the aircraft's performance parameters and the framework of the regulations, there just isn't a very high likelihood of much happening to you.
 
Enough good and careful pilots die, leaving their pilot friends totally gutted and in disbelief, that anyone who can sustain a thought out to its logical conclusion will realize that GA is not safe.

OP's passenger at some level probably knows this.

My experience has been that the more a pilot tries to convince me that GA flying is safe, the less I am inclined to want to fly with that pilot.
 
DFH65 said:
If you ever read the NTSB reports seems to me if you don't fly IFR, don't fly at night, don't fly in bad weather, don't run out of gas, don't overload the plane, don't buzz people or things then you would significantly cut the risk. Might not have as much fun but would cut the risk.
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This is my feeling. Don't run out of gas and don't make poor decisions. Be safe.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
But yeah, it's very interesting how many pilots will say how safe it is, when it potentially isn't. I wonder why we defend it so vigorously sometimes.
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Meh, I think it is the risk that attracts some of us to aviation, motorcycling, etc. I like high skill real time activities where I'm in charge of the outcome, good or bad. It's......fun.
 
Dead Stick said:
...thing I've discovered over the past 50 years is that when some jackwad kills himself in an airplane it seldom comes as a big surprise to his pilot friends...
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I would add an exception to that. I have been out of aviation for awhile and recently heard that my DME was killed in his twin engine fuel starvation with gas in one of the tanks. :mad2: Also read about a local guy 1000s of hours in many different aircraft (I think he owned close to 20) and ran out of gas on a cross country flight.

So I would add complacency based on experience can have the same effect as other jackwadian tendencies.
 
DaleB said:
What I'd love to see is statistics for GA accidents not involving gross stupidity.
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It's not hard to conduct a rough study yourself. Just choose 20 accidents at random from the NTSB database, from say 2012--long enough ago that the final reports are in. Then see how many of them involve what you would consider pilot stupidity.
 
acrophile said:
It's not hard to conduct a rough study yourself. Just choose 20 accidents at random from the NTSB database, from say 2012--long enough ago that the final reports are in. Then see how many of them involve what you would consider pilot stupidity.
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Yeah, I've done that several times. The percentage is quite high. It leaves me wondering whether these were mostly people who habitually did stupid things, or if they were normally careful, low-risk pilots who just had a moment of stupidity that killed them. My gut feeling leans more toward the first. I'm usually just looking at a small group of pilots with something in common (flying a certain model, for example), so I don't know how much that skews the results. Probably not much.
 
I wonder if the death rate immediately following the words "watch this" trumps both motorcycles and GA?
 
0luke1 said:
I wonder if the death rate immediately following the words "watch this" trumps both motorcycles and GA?
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Actually, "hold my beer and watch this" trumps all.
 
DFH65 said:
I would add an exception to that. I have been out of aviation for awhile and recently heard that my DME was killed in his twin engine fuel starvation with gas in one of the tanks. :mad2: Also read about a local guy 1000s of hours in many different aircraft (I think he owned close to 20) and ran out of gas on a cross country flight.

So I would add complacency based on experience can have the same effect as other jackwadian tendencies.
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Complacency is HIGH on the list of pilot killers. I've made my living in the cockpit for 40+ years and I've known a few guys who died in airplanes. I considered each of them better pilots than me. In each and every case, they made a stupid bone-headed mistake - they did know better and it cost them dearly. Perhaps this is why I'm so anal about certain things. Never the less, pilots are their own worst enemy. Go through the accident reports - it's the same things repeated over and over and over again. With very few exceptions, those things are totally and completely avoidable. The accident statistics are what they are, but I believe that we, as individuals, can distance ourselves from them by simply not playing the game. If you don't want to experience fuel starvation simply carry enough fuel. Don't stretch it. Verify your quantity on board. Supervise your fueling. Keep a running fuel log. Land and get more fuel if you need it. How many of the fuel starvation accident aircraft overflew airports within 45 minutes of the crash? I'd hazard a guess that every single one did. You can go through the same line of reasoning with every one of the killers. This is basic stuff. When you start dealing with problems always start with the basics.
 
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If you are stupid, operating a motor vehicle it can kill yo faster than operating a plane doing stupid stuff.
 
Geico266 said:
If you are stupid, operating a motor vehicle it can kill yo faster than operating a plane doing stupid stuff.
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You might want to rethink that, but yes, jackwads can usually find a way to eliminate themselves and a few of their close associates from the gene pool. It usually involves stupidity and foolishness. However, after perusing the accident reports, it's been a VERY long time since a pilot came up with a new and innovative way to do it. :yikes:
 
Thanks for the comments everyone. This is all great but still not sure how to respond to comments is "Flying is Dangerous and why do you fly" all in the same sentence.
I guess I can say "I fly safe and take precautions, I do not take unnecessary risks, the airplane is mechanically sound and goes through 100 hr maintenance inspections".
 
Well, the majority of accidents are caused by pilot error and not mechanical failure, so there's that. Airplanes are for the most part extremely reliable.

As for the human factor, explaining that you manage risk and be good with your decision making as well as possible is about all you can say. I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to convince someone who has their mind made up.
 
One thing I never do is try to talk anyone into going flying with me. I may invite someone, but if they say no, I don't pester them about it.
 
Flying GA is safer than chainsaw juggling. FACT.
 
FloridaPilot said:
As a newbie I have been battling this issue for quite a long time and I gave up learning how to fly in the past because of it. I heard all of the naysayers saying how dangerous it is and how this plane crashed and that plane crashed..etc.

I'm at the point in my life right now that I know I'm going to pass away either right now or in the future, (No known health concerns at this point). So why not enjoy the time that you are here? Instead of trying to avoid everything with the possibility of danger?

I noticed that EVERYTHING has some form of risk that can kill you, The restaurant that you went to where you didn't know what they were doing in the back to prepare your food has risk! Driving your car, glancing over at the passing lane and watching someone drive alone side of you with their sun visor down doing makeup while driving has risk too!

Long story short, I decided to become a Pilot despite the obvious dangers of flying. I rather die doing something I love to do instead of being on my deathbed wondering....why didn't I? The choice is yours. My humble opinion!
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That sums it up nicely!
 
I don't encourage people to fly with me.
If asked I tell them that flying is dangerous.
As is sex (haven't given it up though) :D
As is kicking over a motorcycle in front of a bar.
And any other number of fun pastimes.

Had a comment a few weeks back by this brain dead woman "Are you still flying at your AGE?"
I instantly shot back, "Hell yeah. I'm finally getting good at it."
 
They always say that a forced landing form an engine out has a very high percentage of walking away. But...when we talk about fuel starvation it is deadly. At the point of no fuel,the engine is now out. So why is there a difference in stats on mechanical engine failures vs fuel starvation?
 
I think the answer to that is fairly simple.

A 172 with an engine out glides pretty well.

A King Air, not so much.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I think the answer to that is fairly simple.

A 172 with an engine out glides pretty well.

A King Air, not so much.
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A King Air or even a jet will glide pretty well clean. It's the energy which needs to be dissipated when it hits the ground which is the problem. Momentum = mass x velocity.
 
simtech said:
They always say that a forced landing form an engine out has a very high percentage of walking away. But...when we talk about fuel starvation it is deadly. At the point of no fuel,the engine is now out. So why is there a difference in stats on mechanical engine failures vs fuel starvation?
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I took an AOPA online course the other day, and it said that the fatality rate for fuel starvation incidents was only 13 percent.

http://flash.aopa.org/asf/decisionmaking/

(See slide 1-4, and click on "Fuel Management.")
 
Everskyward said:
A King Air or even a jet will glide pretty well clean. It's the energy which needs to be dissipated when it hits the ground which is the problem. Momentum = mass x velocity.
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It's even worse than that: kinetic energy = mass x (velocity squared). :eek:
 
I noticed there are a lot of drunk driving accidents in Automobiles. Is it a problem in Airplanes as well?
 
Driving a car here in Florida, I noticed that people have too much overconfidence behind the wheel, (Tailgating, switching lanes without signaling, Cellphone use while driving, Eating, Texting, Doing makeup, twice the speed limit in the rain...etc). Is it because people develop these bad habits and then eventually get into an accident? Does this happen with Pilots as well? Do they forget all of the safety tips they learned as a student pilot?


If there is an engine out while taking off is there a way to know that an engine is going to give out before finding out in the air? Inquiring minds want to know. :yes:
 
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