safe vs airworthy

[Tom-D]

Today I started an annual on an old Stinson 108-3. hasn't been annualed since 1986.

It has goodyear brakes and wheels, I do not believe they are safe to operate.


so,,, I told the owner to up grade to Clevelands and call me when the list of discrepancies was corrected.

your thoughts ?

 

[Henning]

Today I started an annual on an old Stinson 108-3. hasn't been annualed since 1986.

It has goodyear brakes and wheels, I do not believe they are safe to operate.


so,,, I told the owner to up grade to Clevelands and call me when the list of discrepancies was corrected.

your thoughts ?

I don't disagree with your opinion, that's for sure, but are they legal and in a condition that falls within their operating limitations? If so, when he calls back, "Yeah, I did everything on the list, but I like my Goodyear brakes so decided to keep them." if it was me and the brake were legal and within limits, I would sign it off with a clear conscience. If you have liability concerns, have him sign a document stating that you advise that while legal and airworthy to have, you have recommended that the brakes be changed over safety concerns, and that the customer declined that advice.

 

[Henning]

BTW, we're talking about those old inside out morphodite ones with the rotor in the wheel right?

 

[Silvaire]

Today I started an annual on an old Stinson 108-3. hasn't been annualed since 1986.

It has goodyear brakes and wheels, I do not believe they are safe to operate.


so,,, I told the owner to up grade to Clevelands and call me when the list of discrepancies was corrected.

your thoughts ?

Unless they are worn beyond limits or otherwise broken Goodyear wheels and brakes on a Stinson do not constitute a "discrepancy"

In some older aircraft, J3 Cubs and Luscombes in particular, upgrading the brakes can get you in trouble.

 

[Tom-D]

I don't disagree with your opinion, that's for sure, but are they legal and in a condition that falls within their operating limitations? If so, when he calls back, "Yeah, I did everything on the list, but I like my Goodyear brakes so decided to keep them." if it was me and the brake were legal and within limits, I would sign it off with a clear conscience. If you have liability concerns, have him sign a document stating that you advise that while legal and airworthy to have, you have recommended that the brakes be changed over safety concerns, and that the customer declined that advice.

The clips used here are corroded beyond belief, try to pull them out and they break. the disks are red rust.

 

[Tom-D]

Unless they are worn beyond limits or otherwise broken Goodyear wheels and brakes on a Stinson do not constitute a "discrepancy"

In some older aircraft, J3 Cubs and Luscombes in particular, upgrading the brakes can get you in trouble.

Their failure rate is widely known, I do not feel they are safe to operate, If you do you sign it off.

 

[Henning]

The clips used here are corroded beyond belief, try to pull them out and they break. the disks are red rust.

Well, that fails, but parts are still around. I agree best to change them, but I don't see how to deny an annual if he pus hem into proper condition.

 

[wanttaja]

In some older aircraft, J3 Cubs and Luscombes in particular, upgrading the brakes can get you in trouble.

I replaced the Goodyears on my Fly Baby with Groves (Cleveland equivalent). I was concerned about more-powerful brakes potentially being a problem, but the Groves seem to be about the same effectiveness.

I got spooked enough with my Goodyears that I was kind of relieved when I switched over. There are failure modes with them that will lock the wheel. One happened to me, once, though fortunately just down the taxiway from the hangar. Had to get a floor jack to roll the plane back to the hangar to work on it.

It's probably cheaper to convert than to fix the Goodyears. Wheels take three to eight metal clips each (depending on model) and the clips go for $40-$80 each. A set of pads is $200, if you can find them (I made my own).

My last annual, the A&P had me sign a release regarding my magnetos...just due to age, not anything in particular wrong with them. They're still ten years newer than the engine itself.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Henning]

I replaced the Goodyears on my Fly Baby with Groves (Cleveland equivalent). I was concerned about more-powerful brakes potentially being a problem, but the Groves seem to be about the same effectiveness.

I got spooked enough with my Goodyears that I was kind of relieved when I switched over. There are failure modes with them that will lock the wheel. One happened to me, once, though fortunately just down the taxiway from the hangar. Had to get a floor jack to roll the plane back to the hangar to work on it.

It's probably cheaper to convert than to fix the Goodyears. Wheels take three to eight metal clips each (depending on model) and the clips go for $40-$80 each. A set of pads is $200, if you can find them (I made my own).

My last annual, the A&P had me sign a release regarding my magnetos...just due to age, not anything in particular wrong with them. They're still ten years newer than the engine itself.

Ron Wanttaja

One of those modes hit a Spartan Exec too.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

The clips used here are corroded beyond belief, try to pull them out and they break. the disks are red rust.

Ok....I'm with you on that.

But, had they been in good condition they'd be fine to operate per how and what it was certified to in the TCDS.

And replacing with another old Goodyear type is acceptable, safe, and airworthy.....Unless an AD specifies otherwise.

 

[Tom-D]

Ok....I'm with you on that.

But, had they been in good condition they'd be fine to operate per how and what it was certified to in the TCDS.

And replacing with another old Goodyear type is acceptable, safe, and airworthy.....Unless an AD specifies otherwise.

IMHO If goodyear brakes were brand new they would be unsafe to operate, There have been way too many good aircraft sent to the junk yard because of them.

Legal, yes, Safe no.

What are saying when you sign off an annual? READ the whole definition of "Airworthy" Specially the second sentence. "and in a condition for safe operation"

 

[Henning]

IMHO If goodyear brakes were brand new they would be unsafe to operate, There have been way too many good aircraft sent to the junk yard because of them.

Legal, yes, Safe no.

What are saying when you sign off an annual? READ the whole definition of "Airworthy" Specially the second sentence. "and in a condition for safe operation"

You are saying that the parts meet the manufactures' specification and maintenance instructions that they have certified with the FAA to be safe. Your opinion is not particularly relevant to the process outside moral obligation to the owner. Once you have told the owner/operator your opinion and recommendation, your moral obligation is satisfied just as if the parts all meet Goodyear's spec, so is your legal obligation.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

IMHO If goodyear brakes were brand new they would be unsafe to operate, There have been way too many good aircraft sent to the junk yard because of them.

Legal, yes, Safe no.

What are saying when you sign off an annual? READ the whole definition of "Airworthy" Specially the second sentence. "and in a condition for safe operation"

Well....I guess you aren't obligated to sign anything you don't "think" is safe......but, keep in mind, that's just your opinion.

 

[Alexb2000]

Tom-

I get into this all the time with people. IMO if you explain your perspective to the customer and they don't want to do anything about it then ask them to take it to an A&P that they trust. I wouldn't force them to do anything and I wouldn't want to be forced to sign off on anything I felt was unsafe. Simple as that.

 

[Skip Miller]

Tom, you had some brake problems with the Fairchild on your trip from the Seller to home. Were those Goodyears? I remember you "took a trip to Cleveland" as soon as you got home.

-Skip

 

[Henning]

I didn't know Annual Inspections involved opinions about the suitability of legally installed equipment. I though it was about assuring the condition and legally of installed equipment.

Opinions can be offered as advice, but I don't see where there is any legal or moral imperative to force your opinion on someone else. This is no different really than the baker who wouldn't make the cake for the gay wedding. However, if you refuse to sign off an annual with a legal product over your opinion, it would be immoral , and probably illegal, to accept any money.

If you don't like Goodyear brakes, when a plane shows up, to own ally who has them, you need to tell them right up front you won't sign off the annual unless the brakes get changed out.

 

[Tom-D]

Well....I guess you aren't obligated to sign anything you don't "think" is safe......but, keep in mind, that's just your opinion.

Anyone who I have ever talked to about Goodyear brakes has the same opinion.

 

[Henning]

Anyone who I have ever talked to about Goodyear brakes has the same opinion.

I have the same opinion, however it's irrelevant, opinions don't count for this.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Anyone who I have ever talked to about Goodyear brakes has the same opinion.

ya.....I feel that way about lots of aircraft and stuff....but, it still doesn't change the regulations one bit.

 

[Tom-D]

I didn't know Annual Inspections involved opinions about the suitability of legally installed equipment. I though it was about assuring the condition and legally of installed equipment.

That's only half of it.

Opinions can be offered as advice, but I don't see where there is any legal or moral imperative to force your opinion on someone else. This is no different really than the baker who wouldn't make the cake for the gay wedding. However, if you refuse to sign off an annual with a legal product over your opinion, it would be immoral to accept any money.

I have the right to refuse service to anyone. this is not a moral issue, it is one of safety.

For this customer I gave them a list of discrepancies that I would require repaired before I would sign the Stinson off as airworthy, just as I would any other customer.

 

[Tom-D]

ya.....I feel that way about lots of aircraft and stuff....but, it still doesn't change the regulations one bit.

Well. the regulations give me the authority to say what's safe.

 

[weirdjim]

I have the right to refuse service to anyone. this is not a moral issue, it is one of safety.

For this customer I gave them a list of discrepancies that I would require repaired before I would sign the Stinson off as airworthy, just as I would any other customer.

If you had advised the customer that you considered the brakes airworthy by the strict application of the Type Certificate yet unsafe and signed the annual, here is a question posed in the courtroom to you by the opposing attorney,

"Well, Mr TomD, you considered the aircraft unsafe by your own admission yet you signed the paperwork that let him destroy his airplane and suffer irreparable brain damage. Why did you sign the paperwork on an unsafe airplane?"

Your answer???

Jim

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Well. the regulations give me the authority to say what's safe.

yes, yes they do.....but, some other poor fella might "feel" differently....and be completely legal with that.

 

[Tom-D]

I have the same opinion, however it's irrelevant, opinions don't count for this.

For an annual? yes it does.

what is airworthiness? To be airworthy, does it need to be in a condition for safe operation? Is it not the inspector's opinion what is safe for operation?

 

[Henning]

I have the right to refuse service to anyone. this is not a moral issue, it is one of safety.

For this customer I gave them a list of discrepancies that I would require repaired before I would sign the Stinson off as airworthy, just as I would any other customer.

I don't disagree, but when you refuse service, you have to also refuse their money. If you see Goodyears on the plane when it rolls up, (actually you should make it known on the first phone all) you should tell them up front that you will not sign it off with those brakes.

It is your OPINION that the brakes are unsafe by design, unfortunately, that is not an opinion shared by the FAA or Goodyear, otherwise they would no longer exist. That actually sets you up for a legal bind.

 

[Henning]

For an annual? yes it does.

what is airworthiness? To be airworthy, does it need to be in a condition for safe operation? Is it not the inspector's opinion what is safe for operation?

You do not decide what is required for safe operation, you decide if the conditions the manufacture set, and FAA certified as safe for operations are being met.

 

[Tom-D]

If you had advised the customer that you considered the brakes airworthy by the strict application of the Type Certificate yet unsafe and signed the annual, here is a question posed in the courtroom to you by the opposing attorney,

"Well, Mr TomD, you considered the aircraft unsafe by your own admission yet you signed the paperwork that let him destroy his airplane and suffer irreparable brain damage. Why did you sign the paperwork on an unsafe airplane?"

Your answer???

Jim

No matter what the answer, the judge would give the plaintiff every thing I own.

 

[Tom-D]

You do not decide what is required for safe operation, you decide if the conditions the manufacture set, and FAA certified as safe for operations are being met.

I believe you need some IA Training.

It is not airworthy if it is not safe to operate. I do have the authority to make that decision.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, you had some brake problems with the Fairchild on your trip from the Seller to home. Were those Goodyears? I remember you "took a trip to Cleveland" as soon as you got home.

-Skip

Yes Skip, I do have reasons to be skeptical of unsafe brakes. My F-24 had Hayes wheels and mechanical drum brakes they simply wouldn't work on the way home. but in the end they did cause the demise of the 24.
but the Goodyear disk brakes will with out notice allow the disk to tip sideways and lock the wheel. If you are lucky, it happens when you are taxiing.

 

[Tom-D]

You do not decide what is required for safe operation, you decide if the conditions the manufacture set, and FAA certified as safe for operations are being met.

No Henning you are wrong.

I decide which aircraft I will sign as airworthy. I also give the owner the option to find another IA. or to sign it off as un-airwothy and have an A&P repair and return to service

 

[Henning]

No matter what the answer, the judge would give the plaintiff every thing I own.

No sir, that is why I said if you're worried, get the customer to sign off on the statement.

The answer in court is simple, "Well, it is in my opinion that these brakes are intrinsically unsafe, however neither the FAA not the manufacturer share my opinion, so I am legally obligated to sign them off as they have been for the past 50 years. I let the plaintiff know about my opinion and advised him strenuously to replace them with a better alternative, but they refused. Since my opinion has no legal bearing on the certification criteria that the FAA sets for 'safe', and the terms of my license under which I sign off the Annual Inspection state I must follow the edicts and instructions of the FAA, I had to provide the signature as the equipment met the specifications set forth by the manufacturer and approved by the FAA in the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness."

 

[Flymeariver]

No sir, that is why I said if you're worried, get the customer to sign off on the statement.

QUOTE]

But with a crying widow in front of a jury.....that statement being signed could still be worthless, right?

 

[Henning]

No sir, that is why I said if you're worried, get the customer to sign off on the statement.

QUOTE]

But with a crying widow in front of a jury.....that statement being signed could still be worthless, right?

Nope, it shows that he performed the only act he is legally entitled to do with his opinion (outside turning away the customer on first call). Opinions don't set the standards for an annual, manufacturer provided, FAA approved, data does that; and measurements determine pass/fail. Opinions aren't particularly relevant.

 

[N3368K]

Did you sign off as "annual inspection completed and owner provided discrepancy list". Or did you simply refuse to sign it off?


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Brad Z]

If there's no AD or other directive to replace the brakes, then I don't see how you can necessary withhold your signature. Would you sign off on an annual for a plane that had lap belts, even if the owner could upgrade to three or four point restraints? How about Kelly alternators? Would you sign off on my 182 if I haven't installed an aftermarket BRS system? Sure, there's some hyperbole here, but my point is that a good mechanic's opinions are worthwhile, but at the end of the day airworthiness refers to whether the plane conforms to the type certificate or not. I like the idea of a signed disclaimer...it makes your point clear should there be an incident later.

 

[jesse]

I replaced the Goodyears on my Fly Baby with Groves (Cleveland equivalent). I was concerned about more-powerful brakes potentially being a problem, but the Groves seem to be about the same effectiveness.

I got spooked enough with my Goodyears that I was kind of relieved when I switched over. There are failure modes with them that will lock the wheel. One happened to me, once, though fortunately just down the taxiway from the hangar. Had to get a floor jack to roll the plane back to the hangar to work on it.

It's probably cheaper to convert than to fix the Goodyears. Wheels take three to eight metal clips each (depending on model) and the clips go for $40-$80 each. A set of pads is $200, if you can find them (I made my own).

My last annual, the A&P had me sign a release regarding my magnetos...just due to age, not anything in particular wrong with them. They're still ten years newer than the engine itself.

Ron Wanttaja

I still run the Goodyears and am happy with them. The nice thing is basically everyone else has converted. So I have a box full of probably enough parts to support mine for the next two hundred years...all shipped to me by various people on the internet for free that were glad to get rid of them.

I inspect them twice a year. They're strong enough to hold the airplane at full power (if I'm on grass, not quite enough on pavement). Seems like about every two years I have to add more fluid which is a GIANT PITA because my setup has no bleeder and nowhere to really add the fluid. I can't even remember how the hell I did it last time but it took a lot of messing around with.

I'm sure if mine locked up it'd probably scare me enough to replace them. I probably should replace them but dropping a thousand on Groves is just not something I've been willing to do since I've had no real issues and have parts. I just hope regular inspections will avoid such a thing.

 

[Henning]

I still run the Goodyears and am happy with them. The nice thing is basically everyone else has converted. So I have a box full of probably enough parts to support mine for the next two hundred years...all shipped to me by various people on the internet for free that were glad to get rid of them.

I inspect them twice a year. They're strong enough to hold the airplane at full power (if I'm on grass, not quite enough on pavement). Seems like about every two years I have to add more fluid which is a GIANT PITA because my setup has no bleeder and nowhere to really add the fluid. I can't even remember how the hell I did it last time but it took a lot of messing around with.

I'm sure if mine locked up it'd probably scare me enough to replace them. I probably should replace them but dropping a thousand on Groves is just not something I've been willing to do since I've had no real issues and have parts. I just hope regular inspections will avoid such a thing.

If they lock up, you will likely be replacing the airplane, or at least a prop.

 

[Norman]

I have the right to refuse service to anyone. this is not a moral issue, it is one of safety.

Ask the folks at the bakery how far that went in court.

 

[Silvaire]

Their failure rate is widely known, I do not feel they are safe to operate, If you do you sign it off.

I'm not saying that you are obligated to sign it off. In this case the parts are corroded and worn beyond limits and they are therefore unairworthy but your post insinuates that they would be unsafe even if new. All I'm saying is if that were the case, although you could still refuse to sign the annual off I don't see how you could call it a "discrepancy"

Furthermore I wouldn't enter into a contract, verbal or otherwise, to do an annual unless you told the owner up front that you won't sign off on Goodyear brakes or wheels. What I mean is don't drop a bomb on him. That would be bad form.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not saying that you are obligated to sign it off. In this case the parts are corroded and worn beyond limits and they are therefore unairworthy but your post insinuates that they would be unsafe even if new. All I'm saying is if that were the case, although you could still refuse to sign the annual off I don't see how you could call it a "discrepancy"

Furthermore I wouldn't enter into a contract, verbal or otherwise, to do an annual unless you told the owner up front that you won't sign off on Goodyear brakes or wheels. What I mean is don't drop a bomb on him. That would be bad form.

That is true.

The first thing I saw (was looking for) was the brakes, and said " I do not consider those brakes safe to use" he agreed, and we proceeded. and left him with a list as to what I wanted repaired/changed.

we will see if he calls me back. ( I made no entry in his logs) he is open to get anyone he likes to do the annual.

If he calls me back, I'll inspect what he's done and make the appropriate entries and complete the annual.

Remember many owners will not spend a dime on upgrades until we require them to do it.