Sad day in Jackson Hole

Another close up pic of the rivet line that pulled through..... This plane hit HARD.!!!!!
 

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Amazing forces at work there.

Good work Ben, thanks again for all of the caring and humanity you have selflessly displayed during this tragic accident.
 
Have you talked to NTSB? As a witness I would encourage you to do so if you haven't. Only because I was a witness to a crash several years back, one of many witnesses but several of them (who did talk to NTSB) had a better view of the incident than I did so I didn't think I'd have anything more to contribute. Comes the finding and some of the basic facts were so completely wrong I was amazed. I spoke to two guys who had talked to NTSB and they concurred with my recollection of the event. In the end I don't think it makes any difference since both versions essentially came down to "maneuvering flight" but still, it's bothered me ever since to think that the NTSB report is out there with such glaring errors (and likely others as well.)
 
rwhenderson said:
Have you talked to NTSB?
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He has indeed talked to them - I assume the number of posts to this thread obscured that fact.

Oh - and welcome to PoA! I assume by your display name of 56s that you fly out of Seaside Oregon? I fly out of Creswell Oregon.
 
N801BH said:
OK, Guy/Gals....

This deal is finally winding down... I was hired by the NTSB to assist the investigator to completely go through that plane with a fine toothed comb. And I mean she / I looked at EVERYTHING... For all the times I made the comment that the NTSB didn't really give a crap about experimentals and not properly investigate their crashes.... I sincerely apologize.. This gal is in the early thirties and probably the smartest young person I have ever met. If she wanted to see a particular bolt, or nut, or bracket, or pushrod or ANYTHING... She and I did what we had to do to get to it...The whole process was tedious, morbid, methodical , and downright fascinating. She left no part aside and she considered all avenues of failure.. I am telling you.... Having her associated with the NTSB is wonderful asset to the flying public.. I didn't hurt that she was kinda cute too.

As it stands now the NTSB released the wreckage to the insurance company on Sat afternoon. Of course they don't work weekends like the NTSB and yours truly so I now have possession of it and it is sitting in my yard to help save on storage fees.. I also have to hand it to this feisty brave gal... After spending days digging through the wreckage of what was a VERY nice, highly modified experimental she had absolutely no problem asking and then getting into my highly modified experimental to fly some flight profiles to try and simulate the fatal flight path and get what seemed like hundreds of pics of the crash site and the valley itself.. The whole time she had a smile on her face and really enjoyed riding in an experimental.. Even after all the time we spent digging through the mess of that RV-7.. I don't know if I should be 20 years younger or her 20 years older but................. I REALLY like her attitude, thought process, curious mind and her outlook on life.. She is gonna make some young man a great catch for sure....

I will go out tomorrow and snap a few pics of the wreckage and if anyone is curious to see how a RV-7 comes apart when it hits mother earth I will email them to you directly and I will not post those horrific pics on the net..... Also, she said there will be a preliminary report in a few days and a final report in a year or so... I will leave it at that but after watching the entire investigation process and her thirst for answers I am 100 % convinced, whatever her conclusion is, no one else could have done it better... I am still on track to send ALL funds that are sent to me by the NTSB, to the LOE fly in reps so they can give it to the family to help offset the costs of the final expenses.


I will say this once again..... Please fly safely, you can turn a perfectly good plane and wonderful humans into another NTSB investigation in the blink of an eye with just one small mistake.....

Godspeed to the couple in N820RV and tailwinds and blue skys to all of you aviators..


Ben
N801BH
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During the investigation of the RV-7 crash ( N820RV) this gal impressed me with her thirst for details....

She is the lead investigator for the Lancair IV crash that killed the CEO of Micron a year earlier and her report on that is now final..... It is a LONG read but she didn't leave ANY stone unturned..:no:..:nonod:...

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20120203X23028&ntsbno=WPR12FA089&akey=1..

It will be interesting to read her summary on the Jackson Hole crash.. Especially since the wreckage was left in my yard for a month while the Insurance company delayed picking it up......

Ps... I reconstructed it and found out EXACTLY what broke to cause the pilot to get distracted and stall it....:sad:
 
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N801BH said:
Ps... I reconstructed it and found out EXACTLY what broke to cause the pilot to get distracted and stall it....:sad:
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I read through the report, and although granted most of it is Greek to me, I didn't read anything that definitely pointed out "what caused it."

Did I miss something buried in there? What did you find that broke?
 
LoneAspen said:
I read through the report, and although granted most of it is Greek to me, I didn't read anything that definitely pointed out "what caused it."

Did I miss something buried in there? What did you find that broke?
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Likely some confusion over what Ben is referring to. At the risk of adding to the confusion:

Ben is saying he believes he knows what caused the RV-7 crash that he witnessed; but the NTSB report he linked to is for a different crash - a Lancair. The only reason he linked to that report was to showcase the thoroughness of the investigator who wrote it because she was also assigned to the RV-7 crash investigation.
 
I wish all investigations involving fatalities were that thorough.

On the RV-7...most of us are probably thinking "that alternative engine". But it is probably more simple than that. Keep us posted Ben.
 
RV10flyer said:
I wish all investigations involving fatalities were that thorough.

On the RV-7...most of us are probably thinking "that alternative engine". But it is probably more simple than that. Keep us posted Ben.
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I was a supercharged Lycoming clone... Altho it probably makes it " alternative"..:dunno:..
 

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Jim Logajan said:
Likely some confusion over what Ben is referring to. At the risk of adding to the confusion:

Ben is saying he believes he knows what caused the RV-7 crash that he witnessed; but the NTSB report he linked to is for a different crash - a Lancair. The only reason he linked to that report was to showcase the thoroughness of the investigator who wrote it because she was also assigned to the RV-7 crash investigation.
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Gotcha - I thought the report was for the incident he was mentioning, but I was mistaken.

Agreed on the thoroughness of that report. That was impressive.
 
N801BH said:
...
Ps... I reconstructed it and found out EXACTLY what broke to cause the pilot to get distracted and stall it....:sad:
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are you thinking bird strike?
 
Badger said:
are you thinking bird strike?
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Nope....:no:.....

Ps.... The pic in post 91 shows the path of the pilots upper half leaving the plane, not a bird entering it....:sad:
 
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Possibly supercharger belt broke?

It will drive some crazy until the final report comes out.
 
Stiff drinks help.

On my first day at my current job, I watched a piece of auger roll off a flatbead and on top of a guy standing next to it. It severed 90% of his left leg just below the hip. I had to hold a rag on the wound to stop the bleeding until the paramedics got there. He's alive now, but he barely made it.

You want to pretend it didn't happen, but you know to go run and help in any way you can, regardless of how it looks.
 
MAKG1 said:
What the hell is the secret?

Someone died here. It's not a guessing game.
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Two humans died here... Not one....:no:..

There is NO secret.. I am waiting for the NTSB to release their final / Factual report and then I will explain my findings of the wreckage.....
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Stiff drinks help.

On my first day at my current job, I watched a piece of auger roll off a flatbead and on top of a guy standing next to it. It severed 90% of his left leg just below the hip. I had to hold a rag on the wound to stop the bleeding until the paramedics got there. He's alive now, but he barely made it.

You want to pretend it didn't happen, but you know to go run and help in any way you can, regardless of how it looks.
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You sir, are a class act :yes:. Many years ago, i witnessed 2 marines, drunk as hell roll their car across all 4 lanes of I-5 in N. San Diego county. One was bleeding profusely from a rather large cut on his arm, my sweater and belt were sacrificed to stop the bleeding, his buddy, was hanging unconscious from his seatbelt in the upside down truck, my friend and I had to pull him out, and all he could say when he regained consciousness was "don't tell my wife i was driving drunk." It's true what you say about running to help.
 
There is no secret. The NTSB has not released a final report.

N801BH said:
I am waiting for the NTSB to release their final / Factual report and then I will explain my findings of the wreckage.....
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Were you working for the NTSB in some official capacity?

Nauga,
full circle
 
N801BH said:
Two humans died here... Not one....:no:..

There is NO secret.. I am waiting for the NTSB to release their final / Factual report and then I will explain my findings of the wreckage.....
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Probably something simple, too.

A buddy of mine lost his mom about 10 years ago in an RV. Her husband was the pilot, got distracted when the canopy popped open during takeoff, stalled it and pancaked it from about 20'.
 
I skimmed back a few posts and couldn't find where Ben inidcated a cause. He said he would withhold his findings until after the NTSB report.

So, now we await Ben's findings. He won't be constrained by internal policies.
 
Yeah, that was what I meant. Ben seems to state that he found a clear cause; the NTSB apparently did not want to share, if so!
 
JOhnH said:
I skimmed back a few posts and couldn't find where Ben inidcated a cause. He said he would withhold his findings until after the NTSB report.
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I think this is the post others are referring to:

N801BH said:
During the investigation of the RV-7 crash ( N820RV) this gal impressed me with her thirst for details....


Ps... I reconstructed it and found out EXACTLY what broke to cause the pilot to get distracted and stall it....:sad:
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Seems to indicate that Ben thought he identified a cause not mentioned in the final report.
 
Katamarino said:
Report is out: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...-8c4c-4651-af12-f2b8933a8706&pgno=1&pgsize=50

The report states that no reason could be found for the malfunction. This seems at odds with what Ben states?
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Zoe has most of the details correct.... The observation from the construction worker and my hangar mate ( who built and flies a RV-6) both heard the plane engine sound as loud but normal, they both heard the motor rev up for a split second and then go to idle. Zoe was pretty sure the prop governer failed and had me remove it from the motor along with the fuel pump.. She took those with her back to Boise along with the prop itself.. Since she drove a Prius I had to use a sawzall and cut off both blades so the prop hub would fit in her car. She also took the Garmin 496 to send to the lab in DC so they could extract data from it..

I tried to explain to her the function and dynamics of a supercharger ( especially one that was modified) but she apparently didn't grasp the finer details..

I still give her a atta boy for looking at every part of that planes airframe to see if there were any issues.... My old compuer got hit with the crypto virus and I lost all my data, but I assumed this crash might generate a lawsuit or two so I burned a CD of all the pictures. As soon as I can transfer them to this new computer I will create a detailed report of what I found when I reconstructed the wreckage. motor, supercharger and fuel injection system....

The problem that brought down the flight was a modification to the supercharger bypass valve... Her explanation is incorrect in this statement "
The airplane was equipped with an experimental Lycoming IOX-360-A41N engine, s/n 407040. The engine was outfitted with a G3i forced induction supercharger kit. The supercharger was mounted to the engine's vertical draft sump. The supercharger system was driven from the flywheel, through the alternator via a serpentine belt. The compressor was a mechanical, belt driven system that utilized a pair of four-lobe, high-helix rotors. In an effort to maximize efficiency during cruise power settings, the supercharger has an integrated bypass valve that is vacuum controlled. This vacuum operated system was designed to allow air to bypass the supercharger and the rotors to spin freely under lower manifold pressure requirements."
 
N801BH said:
Zoe has most of the details correct.... The observation from the construction worker and my hangar mate ( who built and flies a RV-6) both heard the plane engine sound as loud but normal, they both heard the motor rev up for a split second and then go to idle. Zoe was pretty sure the prop governer failed and had me remove it from the motor along with the fuel pump.. She took those with her back to Boise along with the prop itself.. Since she drove a Prius I had to use a sawzall and cut off both blades so the prop hub would fit in her car. She also took the Garmin 496 to send to the lab in DC so they could extract data from it..

I tried to explain to her the function and dynamics of a supercharger ( especially one that was modified) but she apparently didn't grasp the finer details..

I still give her a atta boy for looking at every part of that planes airframe to see if there were any issues.... My old compuer got hit with the crypto virus and I lost all my data, but I assumed this crash might generate a lawsuit or two so I burned a CD of all the pictures. As soon as I can transfer them to this new computer I will create a detailed report of what I found when I reconstructed the wreckage. motor, supercharger and fuel injection system....

The problem that brought down the flight was a modification to the supercharger bypass valve... Her explanation is incorrect in this statement "
The airplane was equipped with an experimental Lycoming IOX-360-A41N engine, s/n 407040. The engine was outfitted with a G3i forced induction supercharger kit. The supercharger was mounted to the engine's vertical draft sump. The supercharger system was driven from the flywheel, through the alternator via a serpentine belt. The compressor was a mechanical, belt driven system that utilized a pair of four-lobe, high-helix rotors. In an effort to maximize efficiency during cruise power settings, the supercharger has an integrated bypass valve that is vacuum controlled. This vacuum operated system was designed to allow air to bypass the supercharger and the rotors to spin freely under lower manifold pressure requirements."
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Ben, are you saying the bypass valve failed open during takeoff robbing the supercharger of air?
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think this is the post others are referring to:

Seems to indicate that Ben thought he identified a cause not mentioned in the final report.
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You're right.
I didn't scroll back far enough to find that and I either missed it before or just forgot.

Sounds to me like this story isn't finished yet.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Ben, are you saying the bypass valve failed open during takeoff robbing the supercharger of air?
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I have never seen such a bypass system exist on a mechanical drive supercharger except in movies, and it wasn't working there.:dunno:
 
Is this a comment about the valve?

"The supercharger was disassembled by applying heat to the outside casing and removing the rotors. The butterfly valve was frozen in a partially open position. The inside casing was dyed dark blue consistent with extended exposure to 100LL Avgas. The bearings rotated freely and no anomalies were noted."
 
Fearless Tower said:
Ben, are you saying the bypass valve failed open during takeoff robbing the supercharger of air?
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Yes and No...

Once you see the pics it will be crystal clear to motor savvy people...

The Readers Digest version is..

He removed the vacuum actuated device and installed a push pull cable to turn a auto system into a manual system.... The mechanism failed when the drive belt broke, hit the lever and bent it... and all the incoming air had to squeeze by the rotors/ housing, which have a .003" clearance between them... The motor will idle,, but that is all... And it was idling all the way to the ground...

I was hopeful the lab would have been able to extract the data from the 496 as that would have provided data to confirm which belt broke..

If the serpentine belt from the flywheel to the alternator broke, the ship voltage would have dropped to battery voltage for the last 32 seconds of flight... if the belt from the rear of the alternator to the supercharger broke then the voltage would remain normal until impact...

One of those two belts broke, I am 100% sure of that... That series of serpentine belts are used to drive alternators, AC compressors and water pumps on most cars today.. The problem is those accessories use 1-4 HP... This set up had the alternator driving a positive displacement supercharger at 3.20 - 1 overdrive.. So when the motor is turning 2800 rpm on take off, the supercharger is turning just under 9000 rpms... My calculations show that HP requirement is 26-28 horsepower, just to drive the supercharger...:yikes:... so the belt was really working hard,, most probably too hard.

The thing that make me real sure of myself is a few days after the crash, I got a call out of the blue by a CFI from down in Colorado... Just a few weeks before, the deceased pilot was doing a BFR in that plane and it did that exact same thing and quoting the CFI " WE barely made it back to the airport with the motor not wanting to do anything but idle"...

The CFI told me he called Zoe and left a message on her voicemail explaining that episode... I would have told her that story myself but she has not returned my emails or calls.... Probably because the NTSB NEVER paid my modest bill for recovering the wreckage, spending several days assisting her in cutting the plane apart to look at everything... In fact the National Park service never paid me for cleaning up the crash site..... The insurance company did send me a check for a couple of hundred bucks for my efforts though... BFD.....

And to cap it off.... about 6 months later I get a call from a 202 area code.. Turns out is was some resource enforcement officer from the Dept Of The Interior in DC wanting to fine me 2000 dollars.... 500 for each little 16" tall PVC cross I erected where the bodies ended up for not getting a memorial permit and 500 dollars each for not doing an enviromental study where the 1/2" PVC crosses where stuck in the ground...

No good deed goes unpunished....:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:
 
What was the compression ratio of the engine? Its a design fault if a stuck-open bypass valve prevents the engine from working like a NA engine.

Edit: posted this while Ben was posting. What a stupid design - what a horrible price to pay for it :(

Just about any modern automotive supercharger application has a flap valve after the supercharger that fail safes to full external air if the air through the charger is blocked. It sounds like this would've saved their lives :/
 
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In spite of the mechanical aspect - there is another lesson to be learned: Maintain airspeed, don't be fooled by visual cues from groundspeed, on a downwind landing. The few times I've landed downwind have been very enlightening.
 
mtuomi said:
What was the compression ratio of the engine? Its a design fault if a stuck-open bypass valve prevents the engine from working like a NA engine.

Edit: posted this while Ben was posting. What a stupid design - what a horrible price to pay for it :(
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It depends if you are just pushing air, or as is more normal, fuel and air, through the supercharger. If you run a 2 stage FI system that injects at the port as well as the SC inlet, and have the ability to independently meter both air flow sources, you can make a system like this work, but I never knew anyone to actually do it. Apparently these people did; :dunno: It's a Mad Max carry over. I never saw the point, if I want that ability, I'll use a turbo with a wastegate dump. Doing this with a mechanical supercharger is a poor application of a mechanical supercharger IMO. Where mechanical super chargers belong on GA planes is with Diesels to make them restart at altitude after the turbo spools down. There you want turbos feeding mechanical superchargers. Mechanical superchargers are for when you always want positive displacement from it.

I imagine he went to mechanical control of the system because it's an inherently poor application to meter by vacuum. I doubt it worked as advertised.
 
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As soon as I can load all my pics into this puter I will explain in detail,,,

Here is a link to the supercharger company.. It was similar to this.. ALL thier units have a vacuum diaphram to open the bypass valve in case of belt or drive failure, it opens the valve automatically... You can see it on the side of the case..

http://www.magnacharger.com/p-121-magnuson-mp2300-6th-generation-supercharger.aspx

There are a few pics from the G3I site....

He had several pics of this exact plane but must have removed them since the crash.. They used N820RV as their demo / prototype / promotion platform.. I spoke to the owner for a few hours and he was VERY upset at loosing his close friend and customer.... The guy was totally honest with me during those calls.

http://www.g3ignition.com/Supercharging.html


If some of you want to view them, I have 76 pics stored on Flicker..... PM for my account and password as they are protected from public viewing...
 
N801BH said:
As soon as I can load all my pics into this puter I will explain in detail,,,

Here is a link to the supercharger company.. It was similar to this.. ALL thier units have a vacuum diaphram to open the bypass valve in case of belt or drive failure, it opens the valve automatically... You can see it on the side of the case..

http://www.magnacharger.com/p-121-magnuson-mp2300-6th-generation-supercharger.aspx

There are a few pics from the G3I site....

He had several pics of this exact plane but must have removed them since the crash.. They used N820RV as their demo / prototype / promotion platform.. I spoke to the owner for a few hours and he was VERY upset at loosing his close friend and customer.... The guy was totally honest with me during those calls.

http://www.g3ignition.com/Supercharging.html


If some of you want to view them, I have 76 pics stored on Flicker..... PM for my account and password as they are protected from public viewing...
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Wait, you're talking about the vacuum safety valve, that's not an operational valve for low power settings, that's an emergency valve for when the blower fails. Was he injecting at the ports or the supercharger, or both?
 
Henning said:
Wait, you're talking about the vacuum safety valve, that's not an operational valve for low power settings. Was he injecting at the ports or the supercharger, or both?
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To me , it looks like it serves both functions... When there is vacuum in the intake manifold, it sends air straight from the throttle body fuel injection to below the rotors and into the motor, When it senses boost pressure, it shuts off that easy path to the motor and sends the air/ fuel mixture to the rotors to get compressed...
 
N801BH said:
To me , it looks like it serves both functions... When there is vacuum in the intake manifold, it sends air straight from the throttle body fuel injection to below the rotors and into the motor, When it senses boost pressure, it shuts off that easy path to the motor and sends the air/ fuel mixture to the rotors to get compressed...
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Interesting, how does it sense boost pressure when bypassing? How does it sense vacuum while producing boost?:dunno:
 
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