Runway Sideslip Drill?

Vance Breese said:
I was taught that the rudder was for managing yaw and bank was for turning.
Has this changed?
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Nope, nothing has changed.

The funny thing about this thread is that everybody is arguing the wrong point from the one Whifferdill and I were discussing.:rofl: Seriously, we were just talking about a detail in presentation that one can not follow as presented. It is just a poor example of a way to present a concept, not the concept itself. It wasn't until people started trying to argue the wrong issues incorrectly that things got stupid.:lol:

Seriously, it was a critique of instruction, not aerodynamics.
 
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Henning said:
When I started using Jack Thelander as a CFI and we went into aerodynamics (he was Chief Aerodynamics Engineer for Douglas) he said, "Everything you've learned about aerodynamics to this point, forget it, it's all wrong.
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I think we get why he told you that.

dtuuri
 
Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge said:
Heading. The direction in which the nose of the aircraft is pointing during flight.
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Henning said:
Heading is a coordinated reference to the inertia of the aircraft, one you uncoordinate the turn the nose no longer points down the heading.
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Check your calendar. It's March 1st, not April 1st.
 
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dmspilot said:
Check your calendar. It's March 1st, not April 1st.
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Fine, as with many things, it is being taught incompletely/incorrectly because they are assuming you maintain coordinated flight. Heading references motion, normally that is the direction the nose is pointing. If you want to reference direction without motion, that is bearing.

Bearing: Direction with no reference to motion.
Heading: Direction of motion referenced to the fluid column.
Track: Direction of motion referenced to the surface below.
Course: Direction of motion referenced to a destination ahead.
 
CharlieTango said:
You can turn left or right ~15* and any further you could not maintain the 'heading' on your DG.
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I've flown a CT a few times and the instrument panel points in the same direction as you yaw the nose at all times. How do you get your DG to stay on heading? Pivots?

dtuuri
 
Henning said:
Seriously, we were just talking about a detail in presentation that one can not follow as presented.
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I followed it from the beginning. Maybe it would have helped if they had shortened the wings when the airplane was moving side to side to indicate bank, but I got what they were describing.

I didn't trudge through 11 pages of posts to see at what point you quit talking about the slideslip drill, but I think the King video showed what he was looking for.
 
Henning said:
The funny thing about this thread is that everybody is arguing the wrong point from the one Whifferdill and I were discussing.:rofl:
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But actually focusing carefully on the points is no fun. Seems some find it more fun to twist and misconstrue and grasp for reasons fling their monkey **** around. :lol:

I can't believe dtuuri has not brought up dihedral in this discussion. :D
 
Reading this thread gives me a headache. FWIW I'm with whifferdill on this one.
 
Hopefully I can sum up this thread with two points:

1) The runway drill is possible. Yep, video proof exists. Nobody here denied it could be done.

2) The runway drill movements are NOT possible as described in the original picture. The original picture on the left shows the exact same flight path changes as the runway drill on the right shows, but with a big text block saying "controls are neutralized" at the point the flight path is redirected. The runway drill cannot be done by simply moving the controls in that fashion. If the creator of this picture did not truly mean that, then this whole thread is moot. But it seems the creator did.

All the other tangent and infinitely circular discussion points here are off topic.
 
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dtuuri said:
I'm not in the least surprised.

dtuuri
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To be honest I lost track of what the hell was precisely even being debated after about this first page of posts :)
 
whifferdill said:
Hopefully I can sum up this thread with two points:

1) The runway drill is possible. Yep, video proof exists. Nobody here denied it could be done.

2) The runway drill movements are NOT possible as described in the original picture. The original picture on the left shows the exact same flight path changes as the runway drill on the right shows, but with a big text block saying "controls are neutralized" at the point the flight is redirected. The runway drill cannot be done by simply moving the controls in that fashion. If the creator of this picture did not truly mean that, then this whole thread is moot. But is seems the creator did.

All the other tangent and infinitely circular discussion points here are off topic.
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Agree.
 
whifferdill said:
Here is where communication falls to pieces here. You say going from a crab to a slip alters your ground track...
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I'm saying that initiating the slip alters the track that you would have been on if you weren't in a slip. You just turned the nose 15 degrees, what is it that you think keeps you on the same track?

whifferdill said:
...When you go from a crab to a slip, all you're doing is yawing the nose for a smoother landing. You don't change your track. The aileron into the wind is NOT causing the airplane to "compensate for the x-wind"...
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Again, if the aileron into the wind (the slip) is NOT compensating for the x-wind, what is? Do you still believe that in a slip the airplane is NOT flying laterally with respect to the direction the nose is pointed? That, as you stated, "it's impossible"?

whifferdill said:
...You give the example of wind increasing and decreasing. If you're on short final in a x-wind, slipped, tracking, and aligned with the runway and all of a sudden the x-wind increases, causing you to drift downwind of centerline, what's your solution? To slip harder, further deflecting both the aileron and rudder? That will do nothing to stop the drift...
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Are you telling us that there is one and only one magnitude of slip, that it can't be increased or decreased with the controls? I'm not following you here. If you are on a 5 kt x-wind approach in a crab is that crab angle not less than if you were in a 15 kt x-wind? Are the control inputs required to maintain a slip with the nose and track aligned with the runway not greater? :dunno:

Communication Breakdown - I agree with that point.
 
Silvaire - until we can meet up and drink some beers at the airport...
 
whifferdill said:
2) The runway drill movements are NOT possible as described in the original picture. The original picture on the left shows the exact same flight path changes as the runway drill on the right shows, but with a big text block saying "controls are neutralized" at the point the flight path is redirected. The runway drill cannot be done by simply moving the controls in that fashion.
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You don't think Eddie went through neutral during his demo? How'd he manage to slip the opposite way then?

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
You don't think Eddie went through neutral during his demo? How'd he manage to slip the opposite way then?
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In bold is the key word. Of course both controls pass through neutral at some point. And likely not even at the same time.

Again, I've asked more than one person to shut down the computer, go up and fly a slip (the steeper the better for visual purposes) at a flight path angled to the runway, but with the nose aligned. Just like the picture shows. Neutralize the controls at the same time. Tell us where the nose is pointing and in what direction the flight path is directed. It's a simple point, at the heart of my original post. Until you do that and report the results, I'll be at the airport with some beers anytime your or Silvaire want to drop by. :cheerswine: I am out.
 
whifferdill said:
Again, I've asked more than one person to shut down the computer, go up and fly a slip (the steeper the better for visual purposes) at a flight path angled to the runway, but with the nose aligned. Just like the picture shows. Neutralize the controls at the same time.
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If you abandon control of the aircraft in a slip it weathervanes into the relative wind. That's not "neutralizing the controls" it's "letting go of them".

As for making a steep slip for visualization reasons, it depends on what you're trying to show--or hide as the case may be. The steepest "slip" would be knife-edge and then you wouldn't be able to sideslep laterally at all. The steeper the bank, the more like knife-edge flight it becomes. A shallow bank is best for this drill.

dtuuri
 
If it helps as a visual aid, without comment here is the exact moment of transitioning from a right slip to a left slip with the controls neutralized, ball in the center and yaw string aligned:

16500275569_e54cfa3fcb.jpg


Well, one comment:

If held, a left turn would develop. But as part of the drill just enough right rudder is about to be applied to prevent that from happening.
 
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FastEddieB said:
If it helps as a visual aid, without comment here is the exact moment of transitioning from a right slip to a left slip with the controls neutralized, ball in the center and yaw string aligned:

16500275569_e54cfa3fcb.jpg


Well, one comment:

If held, a left turn would develop. But as part of the drill just enough right rudder is about to be applied to prevent that from happening.
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It comes down to what you believe is happening in a side slip to decide if the drill is possible or not.

If the airplane is in a turn, what happens in a turn when the controls are neutralized? The airplane remains in a turn.

If the airplane is not in a turn, but moving sideways, what happens when the controls are neutralized? The airplane rids itself of the sideways movement and will fly straight ahead.

To those that believe the airplane is in a turn ,videos like Eddie's only give the appearance the drill is possible, but turns are actually occurring.
 
Someone who has never bothered to learn the difference between a slipping turn, a side slip and a forward slip the drill as depicted in the diagram is impossible. To them, a slip is a slip, and the other terms are just nonsense.

Others that have bothered to learn the difference in slips think the drill is possible. Not only that they have videos and authoritative references to reinforce their belief.

Langeweiche is not enough to convince these people, so who are we to think we could convince them otherwise?
 
Henning said:
Fine, as with many things, it is being taught incompletely/incorrectly because they are assuming you maintain coordinated flight. Heading references motion, normally that is the direction the nose is pointing. If you want to reference direction without motion, that is bearing.

Bearing: Direction with no reference to motion.
Heading: Direction of motion referenced to the fluid column.
Track: Direction of motion referenced to the surface below.
Course: Direction of motion referenced to a destination ahead.
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I know I would appreciate it if you would publish a glossary somewhere with your definitions of common terms. Since you refuse to abide by the definitions that most of us are using, it would make conversing with you easier if we at least knew ahead of time what definitions you were using. :yesnod:
 
Lindberg said:
I know I would appreciate it if you would publish a glossary somewhere with your definitions of common terms. Since you refuse to abide by the definitions that most of us are using, it would make conversing with you easier if we at least knew ahead of time what definitions you were using. :yesnod:
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I gave them several times, scroll up..
 
'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
 
The caterpillar laid down his hookah and asked Alice, "Where are you heading?"

the_hookah_smoking_caterpillar_tote_bag.jpg


"Heading?" Alice asked. "Pray tell, what dost thou mean?"

"Don't be silly, child" said the caterpillar with just a hint of scorn. "I mean, what is your direction of motion referenced to the fluid column? What else could I mean?"

Alice then realized the conversation was pointless and decided then and there to go back through the looking glass.
 
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Haha good one.

I have been thinking that it sounds more like:

"She can't take much more of this, Captain! You must deactivate the inertial dampers and reroute energy from the elevator flux generator to the deflector dish and create an inverse slipping tachyon beam, or else we will exceed the limits of the aileron capacitor!"
 
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FastEddieB said:
If it helps as a visual aid, without comment here is the exact moment of transitioning from a right slip to a left slip with the controls neutralized, ball in the center and yaw string aligned:

16500275569_e54cfa3fcb.jpg


Well, one comment:

If held, a left turn would develop. But as part of the drill just enough right rudder is about to be applied to prevent that from happening.
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It is interesting that, while rolling from the right wing-down position to left wing-down spot of screen capture, the ailerons are first moved through neutral while the rudder (left) is increased or at least held to counter the adverse yaw of the lowered aileron on the right wing. Only after the bank is established (and aileron held deflected) is the rudder then swapped to keep the plane from turning. At the moment of screen capture you have left aileron and neutral rudder.

Anyone can see this for themselves by going to altitude and rolling from one somewhat exaggerated sideslip to the other while holding the nose on a point. If it's your first try at it, :), good luck. It takes practice, but can be done and done well.

dtuuri
 
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dtuuri said:
At the moment of screen capture you have left aileron and neutral rudder.

dtuuri
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Interesting observation - or is it more a deduction?

1) Comparing the stick position with other portions of the video - the takeoff for instance - it appears to me to be approximately neutral in the screen shot. If you want to see what left aileron actually looks like, focus on the stick as I move laterally right to left across the runway.

2) How can you know the rudder position? I think you may simply be assuming where it must be, based on your understanding of the maneuver, and the stating that as fact.

Just curious.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Interesting observation - or is it more a deduction?

1) Comparing the stick position with other portions of the video - the takeoff for instance - it appears to me to be approximately neutral in the screen shot. If you want to see what left aileron actually looks like, focus on the stick as I move laterally right to left across the runway.

2) How can you know the rudder position? I think you may simply be assuming where it must be, based on your understanding of the maneuver, and the stating that as fact.

Just curious.
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Well, first of all I know what it takes to do what you did. As for the physical stick position--I never even checked it in the snapshot because you could be momentarily moving it to account for a gust. I did deduce the rudder position because of the yawstring indication, but yawstrings aren't 100% accurate due to local air flow. On your next "mission" maybe you can roll from sideslip to sideslip and prove/disprove what I say over a series of successful tries? Just do it up high where you have more time and less outside distractions.

dtuuri
 
I think this thread gives a perspective to what a teacher/instructor might encounter with a difficult student.

For example, you start with basic definitions and concepts. If the teacher were using the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, the teacher would tell the student the definition of heading as defined by your text is "The direction in which the nose of the aircraft is pointing during flight."

Now, if the student rejects that definition, and after much discussion and perhaps a flight demonstration, still refuses to accept the definition, where does the teacher go from there?

I am not trying to say some of the posters are in the role of student and other posters are in the role of instructor. But for you instructors out there, if you encounter this type of situation , what to do?
 
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Wow....... What a crazy thread. Right up there with "elevator is what makes an airplane turn."

The drill is obviously intended to practice your skills so your landings will be on centerline with proper alignment. You move the plane laterally while maintaining runway heading. Why over think it beyond that? Does all the hair splitting prove you're a superior pilot? Does it prove you're smarter? What is the point of this whole discussion? The diagram isn't precise enough? Really? Do you want equations to describe the path of the plane?
 
vintage cessna said:
I think this thread gives a perspective to what a teacher/instructor might encounter with a difficult student...
I am not trying to say some of the posters are in the role of student and other posters are in the role of instructor. But for you instructors out there, if you encounter this type of situation , what to do?
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I don't recall this being a large problem, and as a reference I have about 4,500 hours of dual given. Most students respect authority, but I always encouraged them to speak up if I told them something different from what another instructor had told them, or what they had read, or that just didn't make sense. An instructor should always be ready and eager to learn from his or her students.

For example, if I were teaching this sideslip drill - I don't think I ever did, BTW - I might tell the student to use whatever rudder necessary to maintain the RWY heading and to stop any turn from developing. If he or she responded, "Well, aren't we sort of turning when we fly a curved ground path?", I'd say, "For now, let's just assume no heading change = no turn. We can discuss the details later if you want, but they're not important here."

Online, I can think of two students or new pilots that did seem to have a fundamental problem with this sort of thing. Before he got banned, CTLSi would state things that were clearly wrong, then argue and argue and argue. On another forum, another new pilot argued for using an iPad speed readout on landing. When told it was potentially dangerous he bragged he would never be named in an NTSB report. A bold prediction, and one that was falsified in very, very short order.
 
FastEddieB said:
I don't recall this being a large problem, and as a reference I have about 4,500 hours of dual given. Most students respect authority, but I always encouraged them to speak up if I told them something different from what another instructor had told them, or what they had read, or that just didn't make sense. An instructor should always be ready and eager to learn from his or her students.

For example, if I were teaching this sideslip drill - I don't think I ever did, BTW - I might tell the student to use whatever rudder necessary to maintain the RWY heading and to stop any turn from developing. If he or she responded, "Well, aren't we sort of turning when we fly a curved ground path?", I'd say, "For now, let's just assume no heading change = no turn. We can discuss the details later if you want, but they're not important here."

Online, I can think of two students or new pilots that did seem to have a fundamental problem with this sort of thing. Before he got banned, CTLSi would state things that were clearly wrong, then argue and argue and argue. On another forum, another new pilot argued for using an iPad speed readout on landing. When told it was potentially dangerous he bragged he would never be named in an NTSB report. A bold prediction, and one that was falsified in very, very short order.
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Sounds like a reasonable course of action. What blows my mind about this thread is that I have made the assumption that we would all have certain things in common since we all at one time had to learn the same basics. Like what "heading" means. It never would have occurred to me that pilots would have different concepts or meanings of that word. To me, it is a simple definition not open to different interpretations. So for me, if we can't agree on the same definitions, no point in further discussion.

Thanks for the cool video.
 
I can't believe I've read through the entire 13 pages of this thread.

I did learn one thing - most of you just need to stop typing and get out flying more :)
 
As far as the "drill" is concerned I learned it a long time ago but never did it over a runway. I did it at safe altitude and the goal was to cross the controls left to right and hold the heading. It did take practice to do it smoothly, especially in a Cub or Champ or any old classic that has a lot of adverse yaw. Personally I think it helped me because to fly those old airplanes well you do use cross control inputs a lot more than in more modern designs.

This discussion almost rivaled the infamous "downwind turn" and I think a lot of it was based on nit-picky technicalities. Heading, for instance, should just be dead nuts simple, there are no alternative definitions nor should there be. The other thing was "turn". For me that means the heading is going to change and if it doesn't then I don't consider it a turn.

Could the constant heading side slip entry and exit possibly technically involve elements of slipping/skidding turns? I think there might be some validity in that and I'll give Wiff credit because I believe that was one of his main arguments. I can't do it right now due to personal issues but next opportunity I have I'd like to go up and do the drill in my Champ and watch the needle in my T&B to see what it tells us. I'm pretty sure that if I'm turning (whether slipping or skidding) the rate gyro will tell us.

Overall I think we did a pretty good job of keeping this discussion civil and not making it personal - at least by POA standards ;)
 
Silvaire said:
As far as the "drill" is concerned I learned it a long time ago but never did it over a runway. I did it at safe altitude and the goal was to cross the controls left to right and hold the heading. It did take practice to do it smoothly, especially in a Cub or Champ or any old classic that has a lot of adverse yaw. Personally I think it helped me because to fly those old airplanes well you do use cross control inputs a lot more than in more modern designs.

This discussion almost rivaled the infamous "downwind turn" and I think a lot of it was based on nit-picky technicalities. Heading, for instance, should just be dead nuts simple, there are no alternative definitions nor should there be. The other thing was "turn". For me that means the heading is going to change and if it doesn't then I don't consider it a turn.

Could the constant heading side slip entry and exit possibly technically involve elements of slipping/skidding turns? I think there might be some validity in that and I'll give Wiff credit because I believe that was one of his main arguments. I can't do it right now due to personal issues but next opportunity I have I'd like to go up and do the drill in my Champ and watch the needle in my T&B to see what it tells us. I'm pretty sure that if I'm turning (whether slipping or skidding) the rate gyro will tell us.

Overall I think we did a pretty good job of keeping this discussion civil and not making it personal - at least by POA standards ;)
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Probably not an issue anymore, but some people use to have a dickens of a time with ADF navigation. It was usually a result of them not have a clear understanding of the different words like heading, bearing, track and such.
 
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