Runway safety

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comanche

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Comanche
Quit flying for only 10 years and everything has changed except for weather and flight dynamics.

Doing an AOPA interactive course on Runway safety. Conflicting information. One part of the course says instructions to cross a runway will be given one runway at a time.


Then another part of the course has a controller giving a pilot taxi instructions requiring the plane to cross multiple runways in one broadcast.

I am thinking the first part is correct that ATC will not tell a pilot to cross more than one runway in any transmission. Is this correct?:mad2:
 
It used to be (up until about a year ago) that ATC would clear you to your departing runway, which would empower you to cross any runway along the prescribed path except the runway to whcih you are taxiing.

About a year ago that changed. We are back to ATC specifying which runways you can cross and from which ones to hold short.

Left, right left right. Yin. yang. It never stops.
 
It's nothing to think about. Just follow the clearance, it may be rather long even with stopping for runways. At our field, most of the time Ground will update clearance and clear to cross before you have time to stop. Note though, you have to confirm any instruction to cross a runway, and not just say "roger".

A month ago ABQ Ground cleared me to taxi on a runway (pic here - http://zaitcev.mee.nu/3512398). FAA so brainwashed me with the sancrosancity of runways that I was quite confused. Could not believe the clearance.
 
Unless I missed it, I find the phraseology used prior to the change confusing anyway.

"Taxi TO runway 1, hold short of runway 2."... Is just awful from a radio communications standpoint.

What happens when the mic comes unkeys right after the word, "1"?

No likey.
 
denverpilot said:
Unless I missed it, I find the phraseology used prior to the change confusing anyway.

"Taxi TO runway 1, hold short of runway 2."... Is just awful from a radio communications standpoint.

What happens when the mic comes unkeys right after the word, "1"?

No likey.
Click to expand...
As I recall, even prior to the change, you needed to read back all hold short instructions, so they would have been querying you in that case.
 
denverpilot said:
Unless I missed it, I find the phraseology used prior to the change confusing anyway.

"Taxi TO runway 1, hold short of runway 2."... Is just awful from a radio communications standpoint.

What happens when the mic comes unkeys right after the word, "1"?
Click to expand...

Then ATC repeats the clearance because they didn't receive a readback of the instruction to hold short.
 
Thanks all for your answers. CPT Ron, the work up you did was particularly helpful. I have a friend in the Southern Cruisers Riding Club who is also CPT Ron. I will meet him on a four day ride Thursday at the Alamo Springs Cafe in Fredericksburg, TX then on to Kerrville. Life is good.
 
also speaking of runway safety, after you land...don't turn off the active onto an intersecting runway without permission! I saw a pilot do that not too long ago and the tower scolded him something terrible:lol:. He must have assumed it was ok because that runway was closed:nono:
 
denverpilot said:
They also would read it back in that tone of voice that you're a moron... Haha.
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Speaking of moron, not too long ago I was at KADS where they have decided that "Hold short runway xx" is not enough and add the phrase, "Do not cross the hold short lines." I heard them tell this to a pilot whose head almost exploded when he heard it. "I REFUSE!!! to read that back because IT IS NOT!!! standard phraseology!!!" Get a grip, buddy...
 
If I am in any doubt at all if I'm cleared to cross a runway, I'll call and ask before I get there. Barring a confirmation I stop clear.
 
denverpilot said:
Unless I missed it, I find the phraseology used prior to the change confusing anyway.

"Taxi TO runway 1, hold short of runway 2."... Is just awful from a radio communications standpoint.

What happens when the mic comes unkeys right after the word, "1"?

No likey.
Click to expand...
I'll usually say something along these lines:

Me: Ground Cessna 12345 nort ramp for SW departure, Alpha.
Them: Cessna 12345 ground rwy 2 taxi via A, D. Hold Short of 28.
Me: A,D Hold short of 28 12345.

*later*

Them: Cessna 12345 now cross 28 and 33 for rwy 2.
Me: Cross 28 and 33 for 2, 12345.
 
GCA319 said:
I'll usually say something along these lines:

Me: Ground Cessna 12345 nort ramp for SW departure, Alpha.
Them: Cessna 12345 ground rwy 2 taxi via A, D. Hold Short of 28.
Me: A,D Hold short of 28 12345.

*later*

Them: Cessna 12345 now cross 28 and 33 for rwy 2.
Me: Cross 28 and 33 for 2, 12345.
Click to expand...

It can sometimes be a lot to take in at once. I had a student soloing receive the following:

"Lincoln Ground, Bugsmasher 1234 ready to taxi"
"Bugsmasher 1234, Lincoln Ground, Taxi to runway 18 intersection departure at Juliett via Kilo Delta Juliett, Cross runway 17, hold short runway 14"

You should have saw my face listening to that on my handheld. Luckily he remembered: "say again?" and then pulled out "progressive taxi".
 
jesse said:
It can sometimes be a lot to take in at once. I had a student soloing receive the following:

"Lincoln Ground, Bugsmasher 1234 ready to taxi"
"Bugsmasher 1234, Lincoln Ground, Taxi to runway 18 intersection departure at Juliett via Kilo Delta Juliett, Cross runway 17, hold short runway 14"

You should have saw my face listening to that on my handheld. Luckily he remembered: "say again?" and then pulled out "progressive taxi".
Click to expand...


'Progressive' and 'Unfamiliar' are two words which can save you a world of hurt when applied at the correct times.
 
Progressive taxi instructions are great when you are at unfamiliar airports. I've has to use it and the tower seemed very willing to help.
 
jesse said:
"Lincoln Ground, Bugsmasher 1234 ready to taxi"
"Bugsmasher 1234, Lincoln Ground, Taxi to runway 18 intersection departure at Juliett via Kilo Delta Juliett, Cross runway 17, hold short runway 14"
Click to expand...
Man, I hate those. My first reaction would be "say length remaining" and then I need a split-second decision. In ABQ runway 21 ends on a cliff, taking off a intersection Golf, will I be able to put it down on the runway if anything goes wrong 200 ft AGL?
 
GCA319 said:
I'll usually say something along these lines:

Me: Ground Cessna 12345 nort ramp for SW departure, Alpha.
Them: Cessna 12345 ground rwy 2 taxi via A, D. Hold Short of 28.
Me: A,D Hold short of 28 12345.

*later*

Them: Cessna 12345 now cross 28 and 33 for rwy 2.
Me: Cross 28 and 33 for 2, 12345.
Click to expand...
Unless those next two runway crossings are less than 1000 feet apart, they can't do that any more -- only one crossing clearance at a time now.
 
CMTowner said:
Progressive taxi instructions are great when you are at unfamiliar airports. I've has to use it and the tower seemed very willing to help.
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Having the airport taxi diagram in front of you is a big help, too. If unfamiliar, I suggest tracing the entire route on it before you release brakes.
 
CMTowner said:
Progressive taxi instructions are great when you are at unfamiliar airports. I've has to use it and the tower seemed very willing to help.
Click to expand...

Much less hassle to give progressive taxi than deal with the incursion inquisition that happens anymore.
 
Ron Levy said:
Having the airport taxi diagram in front of you is a big help, too. If unfamiliar, I suggest tracing the entire route on it before you release brakes.
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One of the things I have come to appreciate about the G-500 is it automatically pops up the Safe Taxi panel.
 
Everskyward said:
Speaking of moron, not too long ago I was at KADS where they have decided that "Hold short runway xx" is not enough and add the phrase, "Do not cross the hold short lines." I heard them tell this to a pilot whose head almost exploded when he heard it. "I REFUSE!!! to read that back because IT IS NOT!!! standard phraseology!!!" Get a grip, buddy...
Click to expand...
That place is special though...IIRC, ADS is the airport with only one runway, but literally every single taxiway intersection is circled on diagram and designated a hot-spot!
 
Listening to LiveATC.net for JFK Ground and following along with a taxi chart up is always cheap fun entertainment.
 
Ron Levy said:
If it's so foggy I can't see the airport markings and signage by eye, I'm not even walking out to the aircraft.
Click to expand...

And yet you get to judge me? I launch with 600 RVR and I don't have an A/FD. Weird.
 
denverpilot said:
Listening to LiveATC.net for JFK Ground and following along with a taxi chart up is always cheap fun entertainment.
Click to expand...

I am 'LiveATC.net'. It's a job...not entertainment.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Not all of us have that option. Not all of us can AFFORD that option.
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I believe a 696 gets you the same feature and function for a fraction of the price, though I would kick in for the 796. BTW, you can have a Dynon SVT in your panel if you do it right.
 
Nah, I'm just sayin what I do is very different from what Cap'n Ron does. Nothing wrong with that, but that's why he doesn't understand why I don't have an A/FD or know FARs by number.

I could have worded it better. Live ATC was supossed to be funny...but I can see how it fell flat.
 
Captain said:
And yet you get to judge me? I launch with 600 RVR and I don't have an A/FD. Weird.
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First, 600 feet should be enough to see the signage and markings. Second, I hope you're only doing that at airports with positive physical access control to the airside, because 600 feet isn't enough to stop if you spot a deer on the runway nearing rotation speed in what you fly.
 
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Henning said:
I believe a 696 gets you the same feature and function for a fraction of the price, though I would kick in for the 796. BTW, you can have a Dynon SVT in your panel if you do it right.
Click to expand...
An iPad with Foreflight Pro does, too, for a fraction of the price of a 696/796.
 
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