Runway Incursion -- double-check final

[tom.]

At our airport, straight-ins usually work around traffic in the standard "pattern". I have seen straight-ins break off and re-enter when there are several airplanes in the pattern. I give those pilots high marks for courtesy.

Imagine how most of us would feel if our "legal" straight in approach causes a solo student pilot to make an evasive turn, stall, and crash.

I saw a needless near miss one day (at our pancake breakfast) when we had Young Eagles flights in the pattern. The straight-in pilot never saw or heard any of them. I'll never forget it -- and neither will he.

 

[bbchien]

I think it is incumbent for instrument pilots, who are talking to appcon, when they make the CTAF call (a distracting task at a complex moment in flight while handling two frequencies) needs to say, "XY traffic, Seneca XXYYZ 4.5 NE inbound at 2300". A VFR pilot has no idea where "LINCH" intersection is. Nor does he care to learn. The entire transmission is dung if you don't make your position clear to everyone, and simply.

Alternately, "XY traffic Seneca XXYYZ inbound over the Mossville Plant" and everyone knows where you are.

 

[Bill]

needs to say, "XY traffic, Seneca XXYYZ 4.5 NE inbound at 2300". A VFR pilot has no idea where "LINCH" intersection is. Nor does he care to learn. The entire transmission is dung if you don't make your position clear to everyone, and simply.

Thanks both Ron and Bruce, I will modify my calls accordingly. And yes, that is a time of high workload.

 

[mikea]

I guess I must be "a rude idjit" because I make straight-ins VFR at nontowered airports all the time.

In any event, there is nothing anywhere that says one should not use a straight in rather than go all the way around Robinson's barn to enter the pattern on the "standard" 45-downwind entry. The straight-in is perfectly legal, and when an aircraft is coming in from that direction, it is, when executed properly, in many ways better for safety and conflict avoidance than trying to manevuer to the 45 entry. Yes, a "rude idjit" in the pattern can boggle things up by trying to cut off an aircraft making straight in approaches, but 91.113(g) makes clear everyone's responsibilities, and the NTSB will cut off the pilot privileges of anyone who does cut off a plane on a straight in. See Administrator v. Fekete.

Well, they cited at least four incidents where Fekete cut in front of a landing aircraft. It's not like he got busted for one mistake.

My question is what should you do when this happens. When I've been on downwind waiting for the bizjet to finish a straight in I've 1) extended downwind way further than the usual safe distance to the runway, a mile or more. Would it be appropriate to 2) do a 360 somewhere in the pattern? 3) Stay at pattern altitude and make one more trip around, flying right of the runway? 4) Break out of the downwind on a 45 to the right and circle re-enter on a 45? I suppose all of those....

 

[poadeleted20]

I think it is incumbent for instrument pilots, who are talking to appcoAlternately, "XY traffic Seneca XXYYZ inbound over the Mossville Plant" and everyone knows where you are.

Unless "Mossville Plant" is a VFR reporting point with the little flag symbol depicted on the section, only the locals will know where you are if you say this. I recommend sticking with compass points and distances.

 

[bbchien]

Unless "Mossville Plant" is a VFR reporting point with the little flag symbol depicted on the section, only the locals will know where you are if you say this. I recommend sticking with compass points and distances.

Whaddever it takes to get the message across. Sigh.

 

[alaskaflyer]

With all due respect to Ron, I have to believe the recommended pattern entry procedure in the AIM is there for a reason. A straight-in VFR approach into a busy uncontrolled airport during the day smacks of, well...a certain attitude which shall remain nameless. A straight-in VFR approach into a slow airport at night, with runway lights activated, strikes me as prudent, although one should consider these points about night approaches.

Read this and let me know what you think. Just because it is technically legal doesn't mean it isn't either rude or unsafe.

 

[tom.]

Well, they cited at least four incidents where Fekete cut in front of a landing aircraft. It's not like he got busted for one mistake.

It also sounds like the straight-in aircraft were making traffic calls, were at a lower altitude, and he cut in front of them anyway. One was a Lear for God's sake. Not a good way to make your point, IMO.

 

[poadeleted20]

Read this and let me know what you think. Just because it is technically legal doesn't mean it isn't either rude or unsafe.

I'm thoroughly familiar with AC 90-66. Still, it's all situations. Take, for example, a LearJet arriving from a direction which goes straight in to the runway -- do you think having him fly a 45-downwind entry (including the various maneuvers needed to get from where his is to where he'd need to be) is going to work well at a busy airport? Remember, he's flying the pattern twice as wide, twice as deep, and 500 feet higher than the light plane traffic. Imagine the non-radio Cub inside and below him, who doesn't even know the Lear is there. No, I'll stick with my position -- nothing rude or unsafe about straight-ins when properly executed if everyone is playing by the rules (i.e., 91.113(g)) and keeping their eyes and (if equipped) ears open.

 

[poadeleted20]

My question is what should you do when this happens.

If you can land and clear the runway in front of the straight-in, go ahead and do it, because the right of way rule only comes into play when there's a conflict. It's completely legal to turn in front of a straight-in if he's far enough out that you will not interfere with his approach. Otherwise, extend and space yourself behind him.

When I've been on downwind waiting for the bizjet to finish a straight in I've 1) extended downwind way further than the usual safe distance to the runway, a mile or more.

You'd have the same problem if you were behind him in the pattern -- he's not going to turn base as close (1/2 to 3/4 mile final) as you would. In any event, the "stay within gliding range of the airport" practice dating from the 20's is long since discredited. You can't fly the FAA-preferred partial power stabilized approach from that close in. No, I'd say just extend to place yourself in a position where you'll have adequate spacing behind him when you cross the threshold. Note that when following a bizjet, he's flying twice as fast as you are, and you don't have to allow quite as much space behind him when you turn base as you would following a slower plane -- the speed differential will create more space as you both proceed.

Would it be appropriate to 2) do a 360 somewhere in the pattern?

That's an option, but one which must be done with extreme caution, as something larger and faster than you may be flying a wider pattern behind you, and halfway around you could find yourself beak-to-beak with him.

3) Stay at pattern altitude and make one more trip around, flying right of the runway?

If you can't figure a way to stay behind him, that's an option.

4) Break out of the downwind on a 45 to the right and circle re-enter on a 45?

That's not much different than a 360.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I'm thoroughly familiar with AC 90-66. Still, it's all situations. Take, for example, a LearJet arriving from a direction which goes straight in to the runway -- do you think having him fly a 45-downwind entry (including the various maneuvers needed to get from where his is to where he'd need to be) is going to work well at a busy airport? Remember, he's flying the pattern twice as wide, twice as deep, and 500 feet higher than the light plane traffic. Imagine the non-radio Cub inside and below him, who doesn't even know the Lear is there.

LOL! No, probably not. At PGA we would have Cessna Caravans returning from their Grand Canyon and Monument Valley tours crossing midfield for a downwind entry that was - as you say - higher, wider and longer than the rest of ours. If you didn't recognize their call signs and know that they were apt to do this you could find yourself under them easily enough.

 

[Missa]

Alternately, "XY traffic Seneca XXYYZ inbound over the Mossville Plant" and everyone knows where you are.

No, not everyone. If I'm not a local pilot and it's not on the chart how would I know where the mossville plant is. At VLL a common radio call is over Beoumont for the 45 entry. How many of you not based at VLL or a nearby airport know where Beoumont is? It happens to be the BIG hospital complex that everyone choses to make the entry turn over but if your not a local wouldn't it be better to here 2 SW then to hear 'over beoumont'? My call is usually '2 SW over Beoumont manuvering for the 45' to make it clear for both the non local pilots and local 'old geasers' that don't seem to think what's 2 to the SW?

I know Ron, lots of Syalables but if the frequancy is busy I don't necessarly even make this call and sometimes shorten it depending on what's avaiable.

Missa

 

[tom.]

I know Ron, lots of Syalables but if the frequancy is busy I don't necessarly even make this call and sometimes shorten it depending on what's avaiable.

Missa

VLL is one busy place. I don't know how you guys keep things straight down there! Do they still fly cancelled checks every night out of there?

 

[Missa]

VLL is one busy place. I don't know how you guys keep things straight down there! Do they still fly cancelled checks every night out of there?

Yup and they are one of the biggest straigt in offenders.

It's not quite as busy at PTK , it's amazing PTK is the second busiest airport in the state of MI... right behind Metro. You get all kinds of aircraft at PTK. While in the pattern one time on the north side not only were there Lears and Citations but also warbirds going in and out on the south side and right below the north pattern was a yellow cub on floats doing splash and goes in Watkins lake. It was truely a good day to fly. And now I don't know weather to be happy or sad...

Missa

 

[SJP]

It's not quite as busy at PTK , it's amazing PTK is the second busiest airport in the state of MI... right behind Metro.

On the way back into PTK on my first solo long x-c...

Me : Pontiac Tower, Cessna Two Alpha Foxtrot, Pine Knob, 2500, inbound for landing with Oscar

Twr: 2AF, Pontiac Twr, Fly 180 degrees. You are number seven for 09 Left...

Me: Number 7 for 09 Left. 2AF is a student pilot

Twr : 2AF, Ptk Twr..we'll fit you in somewhere...

2 minutes later they went split tower, shuffled me round to the south side, and gave me the nice big runway all to myself

 

[tparsons]

Back to the original "double-check final".

I had a near incident a couple of years ago. Checking base and final isn't enough. I was in a crowded run-up area waiting to depart. Because of other running and parked aircraft, I was only able to turn right 45 to the approach end of the runway and observe final and base. Nothing there, so I announce and pull out onto the runway. 20 seconds max from observing to entering the runway. A Luscomb comes in over me and lands. He was apparently no-radio and was doing a very close-in, circle to land. No real base or final, just a continuous turn from downwind. I noted that he was still turning as he went over me.

That was the first time I haven't checked the full downwind before entering the runway. It was the last time too.