Runway Holding Position Markings

Graueradler

Graueradler

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Russellville, AR
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Graueradler
I haven't been aviating or hanging out at the airport so apparently I've missed something. When I was last there, the runway holding position markings were all on the connecting taxiways between the runway and the parallel taxiway about 200 or 250' from the runway center line. This s a non-towered GA airport (KRUE) with no ground based approaches other than an OOS NDB-A and with the 5100 ft runway and parallel taxiway recently extended to 5500 ft. With the pavement marking after the pavement extensions, there are now runway holding position markings on the parallel taxiway some distance from each end with a sign that says "Approach Area". The parallel taxiway is 300 ft from the runway. The run up pads are beyond these holding markings. I asked the airport manager about it and he said that it was a change in the FAA standards and you had to wait there if there was traffic in the pattern. The actual marking layout would have come from the consulting engineer for the pavement project.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what is going on and where I can read something about it?

I
 
Here's a pic from the airport's website.

Document
 
Graueradler said:
I haven't been aviating or hanging out at the airport so apparently I've missed something. When I was last there, the runway holding position markings were all on the connecting taxiways between the runway and the parallel taxiway about 200 or 250' from the runway center line. This s a non-towered GA airport (KRUE) with no ground based approaches other than an OOS NDB-A and with the 5100 ft runway and parallel taxiway recently extended to 5500 ft. With the pavement marking after the pavement extensions, there are now runway holding position markings on the parallel taxiway some distance from each end with a sign that says "Approach Area". The parallel taxiway is 300 ft from the runway. The run up pads are beyond these holding markings. I asked the airport manager about it and he said that it was a change in the FAA standards and you had to wait there if there was traffic in the pattern. The actual marking layout would have come from the consulting engineer for the pavement project.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what is going on and where I can read something about it?
I
Click to expand...

https://www.faa.gov/airports/engineering/design_standards/
 
Graueradler said:
When I was last there, the runway holding position markings were all on the connecting taxiways between the runway and the parallel taxiway about 200 or 250' from the runway center line.
I
Click to expand...

Looked at the airport on Google. Are you referring to the holds on the connecting perpendicular taxiways from the parallel taxiway? If so, they look normal.
 
Is that a current picture of the airport? I only see the hold position markings at their usual spot 200-250ft from the runway centerline. If you could provide a photo of the markings or an example I can provide a more definite answer, as I work airport ops for a living.
 
DutchRoller said:
Here's a pic from the airport's website.

Document
Click to expand...
This picture isn't current. The pavement (25 & taxiway)now extends 400 feet further to the ENE. It shows where the hold markings originally were on the connections between the parallel and the runway. There is now one on the parallel taxiway well before getting to the run up pad.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Is that a current picture of the airport? I only see the hold position markings at their usual spot 200-250ft from the runway centerline. If you could provide a photo of the markings or an example I can provide a more definite answer, as I work airport ops for a living.
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Not a current picture, see previous post. Sorry but I don't have a current picture. I worked airport ops too. I retired from 7 yrs. as director of this airport 2 years ago and was on the commission before that.
 
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The only things I can think of is if the taxiway encroaches in the approach surfaces. With 300 foot separation between runway and taxiway centerlines, that should suffice for all non precision approaches. Without looking, maybe the GPS approaches have vertical guidance and 3/4 mile minimums, so that might play into it.
 
midwestpa24 said:
The only things I can think of is if the taxiway encroaches in the approach surfaces. With 300 foot separation between runway and taxiway centerlines, that should suffice for all non precision approaches. Without looking, maybe the GPS approaches have vertical guidance and 3/4 mile minimums, so that might play into it.
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The only GPS approach with vertical guidance is on the other end (Rwy 7). 25 does have about 800 ft of displaced threshold so the approach surfaces do start earlier with regard to pavement end but the threshold did not move from its pre-construction location. Good thought. But the GPS approach requires 1 mile vis. so the approach area end should match the primary surface width of 500 ft. (250 ea. side of centerline). That gets us to where the original markings were on the connecting taxiways. I guess I'll give the engineer a call.
 
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Graueradler said:
The only GPS approach with vertical guidance is on the other end (Rwy 7). 25 does have about 800 ft of displaced threshold so the approach surfaces do start earlier with regard to pavement end but the threshold did not move from its pre- construction location. Good thought.
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And there it is. The Part 77 approach airspace overlies the taxiway end because the taxiway is beyond the threshold of the runway. Mystery solved.
 
I would have to check, but usually this is used when an aircraft in the area could interfere with a localizer signal for an ILS.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And there it is. The Part 77 approach airspace overlies the taxiway end because the taxiway is beyond the threshold of the runway. Mystery solved.
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That looks like the issue. The approach surface would start 200 ft before the threshold at the width of the primary surface (250 ea. side of CL). It goes out 10K feet and widens to 4K ft. It would come about 20 feet closer to the taxiway for every 100 feet so 120 ft so it would be about 370 ft from CL at end of pavement. Before construction, end of pavement would have had it coming just about to the edge of the taxiway pavement. The only question now is why is the marking so far up the taxiway. I didn't note the position carefully other than it is well before getting to the run up pad.

This doesn't appear to be a change of standards like the manager said. It appears just to be an application of existing standards to changed geometry.
 
somorris said:
I would have to check, but usually this is used when an aircraft in the area could interfere with a localizer signal for an ILS.
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This airport does not have an ILS, but the protected for the airspace for the GPS approach overlies the taxiway.

Lindberg said:
At a non-towered airport, are these markings more than a suggestion?
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It is a design and safety standard. These markings are a little more serious than a suggestion, but the difference is enforcement. Without a tower there is no one in a position to watch for it. I can't tell you how many I have seen ignore the markings at a non-towered airport though, and will be right at the edge of the active runway while others are using it.
 
midwestpa24 said:
It is a design and safety standard. These markings are a little more serious than a suggestion, but the difference is enforcement. Without a tower there is no one in a position to watch for it. I can't tell you how many I have seen ignore the markings at a non-towered airport though, and will be right at the edge of the active runway while others are using it.
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My question really is, whether, without a tower, there's anything to enforce.
 
Lindberg said:
My question really is, whether, without a tower, there's anything to enforce.
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Like a lot of FAA rules, somethings only come to light or see enforcement after an incident occurs. This would probably be the case here, or if another pilot wanted to file a complaint.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Like a lot of FAA rules, somethings only come to light or see enforcement after an incident occurs. This would probably be the case here, or if another pilot wanted to file a complaint.
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Let me ask it a different way. What's the regulation that controls how and when I can cross one of these markings at a nontowered airport?
 
Lindberg said:
Let me ask it a different way. What's the regulation that controls how and when I can cross one of these markings at a nontowered airport?
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While there is no FAR that explicitly addresses this (like a lot of things, can't regulate every potential move), the FAA would have no trouble citing 91.13 Careless and Wreckless Operations if an accident occurred because of an aircraft occupying the marked area. That being said, is being over the line going to cause an accident, unlikely. As for the markings at this airport, they are moved from their normal position because of the protected airspace for the GPS approach to the runway end. The presence of an aircraft in that area could cause a loss of guaranteed separation from a design standpoint, no different than if a building or other structure occupied that space. The minimums for that approach were created assuming that space would be vacant during the approach.
 
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