Runway closed, can I take off on taxiway

coloradobluesky

coloradobluesky

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coloradobluesky
Its an uncontrolled airport. A plane landed and his gear collapsed and he is crashed on the only runway. They put that the only runway was notamed closed on the AWOS. FBO desk lady said airport manager isnt there. She didnt want me taking off on the taxiway, so I didnt. I cant fly out until they reopen the taxiway.

When can I take off on the taxiway? I called Flight Service and they said they dont know. Just knew runway closed. How do they decide to move ops to the taxiway. Anyone know?
 
The FAA has no regulation whatsoever saying what you can land on or what you can't and doesn't care, as long as it doesn't violate 91.13., there may be local ordinances that affect non-airport landings though.
 
I think the FAA cares about where you land AT AN AIRPORT. No FAA regs on off airport landings though.
 
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careless/wreckless is kind of subjective.

What airport is this?
Does the airport have a notam that mentions the taxiway?
 
No, the airport has no Notam indicating the taxiway is to be used as a runway.
Yes the airport has a Notam that the runway is closed.
 
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ICAO Code?

I want to see the taxi-way. I'd honestly walk the taxi-way for debris and just depart.
 
There is no regulation that I'm aware of that says you must land on a runway. Even if it's at an airport. If the NOTAM says use the taxiway, then it's a no-brainer. Use the taxiway. Otherwise, keep 91.13 in mind.
 
I know helicopters land and take off on the ramp. But Im not a helicopter.
 
coloradobluesky said:
I know helicopters land and take off on the ramp. But Im not a helicopter.
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o_O Look I'm sure if the taxiway is plenty long and plenty wide with no chance of endangering anything you're good to go. If you don't feel safe then don't do it.

Better yet, look-up the N-Number of a plane that looks local and ask the owner what they would do if you need the audible approval of someone.
 
There is no physical reason why it can't be done if it is long and wide enough (they use a taxiway at OSH as 36R/18L), but airport management may/will likely oppose it (if they are around).
I don't think I've ever seen a 'rule' that prevents it, but if they NOTAM the airport closed (not just the runway), that would make it inadvisable. Even if only the runway was closed, trying to use the taxiway may be a safety hazard for those trying to remove the damaged aircraft.

That happened at the airport I instruct from, while I was out with a student. The AWOS message said the airport was closed - but they would remove that statement when the runway was cleared. We landed at another airport and waited until the AWOS message reported it cleared (called it on the phone). I wouldn't attempt to leave or arrive via the taxiway unless there was a compelling reason.

I'm sure it would take a long term runway closure (actual damage to the runway requiring repair) before they would consider 'moving ops' to a taxiway.
 
If you want someone to tell you its ok to do it, why not call the closest FSDO and ask for permission?
 
I watched a Stinson flip over as it was landing, and ran out to help the pilot extract himself. While I was standing there, one of the local flight school Pipers landed on the same runway, screeching his brakes to stop before he came to us, then turned off to taxi home normally.....

Ron Wanttaja
 
If you can do it safely, go for it.

Lots of folks who have tundras land on the grass between taxiways, no a big deal.
 
TK211X said:
ICAO Code?

I want to see the taxi-way. I'd honestly walk the taxi-way for debris and just depart.
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Same here. Maybe drive a car down the taxiway instead of walking. After all, nobody else is likely to be coming.

If there were no taxiway, then I would inspect the grass, or maybe the ramp if it is long enough.
 
If there was room so as not to create a reckless/careless situation I would TO or land. Especially if I was on a XC and not at home. But just to go flying, meh maybe not worth it.

My primary instructor said he landed on a parallel at a towered airport. He wasn't 'cleared to land' but more like 'proceed at own risk', or whateve they tell choppers taking off/landing from ramp areas.
 
wilkersk said:
If you want someone to tell you its ok to do it, why not call the closest FSDO and ask for permission?
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They're going to tell you to ask the airport manager, it's not their call. It's not an FAA issue, unless someone decides it's careless and reckless, particularly if you were told by the operator not to do it.
 
My airport lets us land on and take off the grass parallel to the runway. Nothing written that I know of. Nothing reckless about it. A taxi way seems to be the same type of situation. I recall a local airport TTA was resurfacing their runway and had operations (with size restrictions) landing and taking off taxiway.
 
When I was an airport manager, we allowed grass ops at pilots discretion and, if the runway was not available, the same for the taxiway. We never put that in writing. Basically we were saying that we won't object. We could not declare the taxiway to be an alternate landing surface because if didn't have runway markings. The most demanding aircraft to land on the 35' taxiway was a Westwind. A concern would be if there is an ongoing aircraft recovery or rescue operations that might have vehicle traffic crossing or using the taxiway. In that case, we would be a lot more careful with off runway ops.
 
Dangers you would need to be aware of, other aircraft, vehicles, people pulling out in front of you not expecting an aircraft to be travelling that fast on a Taxiway. If there is a disabled aircraft in the runway, there will likely be vehicles traveling to and from for rescue recovery purposes. Others are correct, there is no regulation preventing it, but what is legal isn't always safe.
 
wanttaja said:
I watched a Stinson flip over as it was landing, and ran out to help the pilot extract himself. While I was standing there, one of the local flight school Pipers landed on the same runway, screeching his brakes to stop before he came to us, then turned off to taxi home normally.....

Ron Wanttaja
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How sad, a Stinson is a VERY worthy aircraft, I landed mine in crosswinds in excess of 40knots of x wind component, if you flip a Stinson you shouldn't have been tailwheel endorsed in the first plane.
 
KBDU claims "three" runways... the main runway, the grass between that runway and the narrow paved "glider" runway, and the glider runway. They also request no simultaneous parallel ops on the three due to lack of separation between them. Gliders stage on the paved "glider" runway, tow-planes land in the grass, and everyone else uses the "main" runway.

KPUB made the taxiway the runway while the runway was being repaved many years ago. (They also added better temporary markings, and a NOTAM, and the ATIS included the information, and...)

In other words: It's up to the airport operator what you can land on. If they say "land on the taxiway" and you've done your math homework on whether it's long enough for your ops, and are comfortable with the width and/or any nearby obstacles, have at it. If they haven't said... might be worth asking, unless you're of the "ask forgiveness instead of permission" personality type.

In the OP's case, sounds like the airport manager needs to be chastised for not writing a plan for who's in charge when they're unavailable.
 
Share an airport with some Ag Cats and you will have planes taking off anywhere.
 
Is there sufficient usable runway if you enter the runway, taxi back to the disabled plane, and then proceed with your departure? If you can do that safely at non-towered airport you should be good to go. Of course you want to also know if you could do a 180 to land in an emergency and stop without stacking up the wreckage.
 
James331 said:
Wanttaja said:
I watched a Stinson flip over as it was landing, and ran out to help the pilot extract himself.
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How sad, a Stinson is a VERY worthy aircraft, I landed mine in crosswinds in excess of 40knots of x wind component, if you flip a Stinson you shouldn't have been tailwheel endorsed in the first plane.
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Well... not a crosswind issue. Gullwing Stinson, new restoration. Did a nice wheel landing, then slowly pitched forward and went over onto its back. "The pilot stated that there were no mechanical anomalies with the airplanes flight control systems or brake systems at the time of the accident."

Would have taken a few pictures, but didn't want to rub it in....

Ron Wanttaja
 
Can't use the runway, the runway is NOTAMED CLOSED. But that still leaves the taxiway open.

I just put the plane away. Its my home airport, no need to tick off the airport management. Everyone was all worked up because of the crash. Best just to go away. If I was at an away airport, I probably would have just used the taxiway. What can they do if you never come back?

As for the legality, it appears to be a matter of jurisdiction. And the one in charge of this is whoever runs the airport.
 
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wanttaja said:
Well... not a crosswind issue. Gullwing Stinson, new restoration. Did a nice wheel landing, then slowly pitched forward and went over onto its back. "The pilot stated that there were no mechanical anomalies with the airplanes flight control systems or brake systems at the time of the accident."

Would have taken a few pictures, but didn't want to rub it in....
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You just want to see grown men cry, don't you? :) Ouch... damn... that hurts.
 
Brad Z said:
They're going to tell you to ask the airport manager, it's not their call. It's not an FAA issue, unless someone decides it's careless and reckless, particularly if you were told by the operator not to do it.
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That is not necessarily true. It may not be the airport manager's call.

I was in a situation trying to depart HSP last summer. A Cessna had lost power on takeoff and gone down just off the end of the runway. Airport manager had contacted the FSDO and was told they needed to close the airport couldn't reopen the field until they had tested the fuel and then get the OK from the FSDO to reopen.

It made some sense for me since I had been fueled by the same truck as the accident airplane, but zero sense for the poor King Air that was also stuck waiting to depart.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Its an uncontrolled airport. A plane landed and his gear collapsed and he is crashed on the only runway. They put that the only runway was notamed closed on the AWOS. FBO desk lady said airport manager isnt there. She didnt want me taking off on the taxiway, so I didnt. I cant fly out until they reopen the taxiway.

When can I take off on the taxiway? I called Flight Service and they said they dont know. Just knew runway closed. How do they decide to move ops to the taxiway. Anyone know?
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You can do just about anything. At a towered airport, expect to hear "Cleared as requested at your own risk."

Back in the days before Class B airspace I used to get cleared to take off to the north from Seattle-Tacoma when runway(s) 16 were in use by airline traffic because Boeing Field was north and east of SEA: "Cleared as requested, right turn as soon as possible."
 
If you ask me, the idea of a single-runway airport only NOTAMing its runway closed implies the taxiway may be used as a takeoff or landing surface. If the airport really wanted to, they could close the airport entirely, close it to fixed wing aircraft, or close the taxiway as well. If there is no NOTAM stating otherwise, and if there is also no airport management directive restricting taxiway departures/arrivals, I personally wouldn't think twice about it.

The most an airport manager would do is tell you to not to do it in the future. They're not going to go call the FSDO because you took off on an open, unoccupied taxiway that didn't have a disabled aircraft sitting in the middle of it.
 
luvflyin said:
It is impossible to make an off airport landing. It is possible to make an off aerodrome landing though.
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Why? FAA defines an airport in 14 CFR 1.1 as:

"An area of land or water that is used or intended to be used for the landing and takeoff of aircraft, and includes it's buildings and facilities, if any."

Are you saying if you "use" the golf course, it just became an airport?

Alternatively, how about if you land on the roof of the FBO? Heh. The buildings count, right? ;-)

(That's one hellaciously poorly written definition of an airport, but it's in the regs...)
 
Harold Rutila said:
If you ask me, the idea of a single-runway airport only NOTAMing its runway closed implies the taxiway may be used as a takeoff or landing surface. If the airport really wanted to, they could close the airport entirely, close it to fixed wing aircraft, or close the taxiway as well.
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I ran into it last summer in Crawfordsville, Indiana. They only closed the runway, but not the airport. I think the idea was to permit rotary wing traffic to operate while the runway maintenance was being done.

On an unrelated note, I didn't see the NOTAM for that. Only got it from AWOS in the air and diverted to Danville. It didn't occur to me to try and land on a taxiway since options were available.

BTW, in Moriarty I knew a guy who flew an ultralight and he only operated from a taxiway. He took off and landed between taxiway intersections, and stayed low, way under the pattern. His idea was to deconflict with a normal pattern and conventional airplane operations. I do not condone his actions, just pointing out that things like that happen, like it or not.
 
IIRC, Pogue airport in Oklahoma had its runway closed a couple years ago for resurfacing and they actually NOTAM'D that the runway was closed and that the taxiway could be used.
 
I think the real question was "Do I need permission". I believe the answer is no from the FAA standpoint, allowable under the circumstance. But you should have a really good plan on how you're going to avoid a collision by someone else pulling out. At TTA the answer would be easy, assuming the entire 7000' runway really needed to be closed. Proceed north on the parallel taxiway past the last FBO intersection and go. Realistically, they could close half the runway and operate with a temporary 3500' restriction.

At your home airport you also have to deal with people on a recurring basis who might view you as a loose cannon and dangerous with potential consequences down the road. People are funny that way, get too far outside the tribe and you become an outside. Must be something genetic that helped us survive.
 
There was an accident at TKI last summer that closed the runway. The tower offered landing on Taxiway B at pilots discretion to get people in. (B is the old runway, same length but ~25' narrower)

I've been told that you can land on a closed runway at a towered airport if you need/want to. As it was described to me, you request it and you hear negative, runway closed, you request it again and hear the same, and on the third request they'll tell you to proceed at your own discretion. (Sorta sounds like Will Farrell in Austin Powers) This was from a CFI discussing heavy crosswind options at Meacham where the crosswind runway was closed UFN and has now been closed permanently.
 
denverpilot said:
Why? FAA defines an airport in 14 CFR 1.1 as:

"An area of land or water that is used or intended to be used for the landing and takeoff of aircraft, and includes it's buildings and facilities, if any."

Are you saying if you "use" the golf course, it just became an airport?

Alternatively, how about if you land on the roof of the FBO? Heh. The buildings count, right? ;-)

(That's one hellaciously poorly written definition of an airport, but it's in the regs...)
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Thats pretty much the punchline but I missed one word that makes me wrong. My original point was "is used OR intended to be used." In other words, if it was used, then it became an airport. But there is also "landing AND takeoff." Now if you landed on a highway and then took off again, it just became an airport. The definition of Aerodrome takes all the mystery out of it. I'm certainly not serious about it, just having some fun.
 
bobmrg said:
You can do just about anything. At a towered airport, expect to hear "Cleared as requested at your own risk."
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A minor nit. ATC (and a tower) can clear you for something, but that doesn't make doing it legal. Operating legally is ultimately up to the pilot.
 
When the Navy flying club was in operation an NAS Whidbey Island, we used to land and take off on Taxiway Bravo. It was longer and wider than many runways I regularly use. But, it was cool to get cleared straight in to land with P-3s in the pattern. I miss that club! Too much politics and too many dunderheads to make something so fun work in today's world.
 
luvflyin said:
Thats pretty much the punchline but I missed one word that makes me wrong. My original point was "is used OR intended to be used." In other words, if it was used, then it became an airport. But there is also "landing AND takeoff." Now if you landed on a highway and then took off again, it just became an airport. The definition of Aerodrome takes all the mystery out of it. I'm certainly not serious about it, just having some fun.
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Heh. Wow. You were joking and referring to that. And I'm kinda amazed I knew it too. Not often that one refers to FAR 1 in conversations. Heh.

"But I *did* land at an airport!" from someone giving a safety seminar about their engine out to a field, and a reference to this, would be a good chuckle in the slide deck.
 
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