Running out of Fuel

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Unregistered

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A friend of mine ran out of fuel and landed on a road. We brought him some fuel and the cops blocked off the road so he could take off. Does this need to be reported? And yes, it really was a friend of mine. And there were alot of witnesses.
 
If there was no damage, it's an incident not an accident. But the FSDO will be wanting a 44709 evaluation ride if no fuel leak was documented.....
 
Unregistered said:
And there were alot of witnesses.
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If so, you can be pretty sure the FSDO will hear about it. And Bruce is right -- if the pilot just plain ran out of gas due to poor planning or bad decision-making (as opposed to, say, a mechnical problem in the fuel system), the odds of a 709 ride are pretty good.
 
bbchien said:
If there was no damage, it's an incident not an accident. But the FSDO will be wanting a 44709 evaluation ride if no fuel leak was documented.....
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Since it's not "reportable", how would the FSDO find out?
 
gismo said:
Since it's not "reportable", how would the FSDO find out?
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YouTube, phone call from one of the "lot of witnesses," news report in local press, you name it. You can be sure the cops, being cops, took names and numbers before they let the pilot go, and will be happy to share with the FAA any information they collected.
 
The fuel guage hung up on him. The fueler confirms that it showed full when he stopped fueling him.

Either way, we are reporting it exactly as it happened and hope for the best.
 
Unregistered said:
The fuel guage hung up on him.
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The FAA won't be happy with him if that was the only problem. Pilots are expected to know fuel burn rates and total fuel aboard, and be able to divide one by the other and know how long they have before silence descends (followed by the airplane) and make decisions accordingly.

The fueler confirms that it showed full when he stopped fueling him.
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You meen the gauge showed full, or that the tank was observed to be full? Either way, if the pilot failed to confirm visually that the tank really was full, regardless of what either the gauge or the fueler said, the FAA will be most aggrieved. If the pilot admits to failing to visually check fuel levels in the tanks before flight, it could turn into an enforcement action rather than just a 709 ride.

Either way, we are reporting it exactly as it happened and hope for the best.
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Reporting to whom, and as what?
 
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Unregistered said:
A friend of mine ran out of fuel and landed on a road. We brought him some fuel and the cops blocked off the road so he could take off. Does this need to be reported? And yes, it really was a friend of mine. And there were alot of witnesses.
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First of all, congrats to your friend for salvaging a mistake. That's not insignificant. Plenty of people before him/her have tried to stretch a glide to an airport with bad results.

Don't worry, someone will report it, even though it doesn't fall under the reporting requirements.

Sheesh, as long as someone bothered to start keeping track of dumb things that pilots do, fuel mismanagement is always near the top of the list, along with continued VMC into IFR, low-altitude maneuvering (buzzing), and loss of control on takeoff/approach. 80% of the time the problem exists between the seat and the yoke. This is yet another data point.
 
Unregistered said:
The fuel guage hung up on him. The fueler confirms that it showed full when he stopped fueling him.

Either way, we are reporting it exactly as it happened and hope for the best.
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Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. I worked as a lineboy in junior high and high school and we always went by what was the pilot ordered:

1. A specific amount of gallons in inboard/outboard/tip tanks based on what the pilot ordered. We would keep a sheet of how much we put where to support the total bill.

2. Filled up "to the tabs" based upon pilot request in the tanks.

3. "Topped-off" based upon pilot request.

I had plenty of pilots question how I got so many more gallons in the tanks than they thought should fit. And I would always show them the meter on the pump or the truck. But no one ever asked me to look at the gauges inside the plane, ever.

That just doesn't pass the smell test.
 
Anyone who runs out of gas deserves a 709 ride . . .

Who fuels a GA airplane to what the gauge says? My gauges are accurate when they are empty and if I keep an eye on them they are accurate because even though they say 7/8 when full they go down relatively evenly. . .

I have a little universal fueler stick that is now calibrated to my tanks, I have the gauges, I have the FP5 to tell me what I burned and I have a watch . . .

Who doesn't LOOK in the tanks after getting fuel? I mean not looking in the tank is stooopid.
 
Reporting it to the FAA. The local FSDO. Who else would it be reported to?

Reporting it as an unscheduled landing on a road, I guess.

Everyone here understands about visually checking tanks. Unfortunately it was a single point system, and the guage was relied upon. Trust me, airline captains don't visually check their fuel either. They rely on guages. Then if the guage lies to them, and they crash, they take the rap for it. Not saying its right, as this thread clearly demonstrates, but that is how it happened.

I'm really not looking for a lecture on safety or anything like that. I didn't run the damn thing out of gas. Just want to know if it is required to be reported so that my friend does the right thing and doesn't end up in WORSE trouble for not reporting something that is required to be reported. I can't find it anywhere.
 
comanchepilot said:
Anyone who runs out of gas deserves a 709 ride . . .
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you, hoss. Most of the time, probably yes, but over the decades I've seen some things happen that were just beyond the pilot's control. Examples:
  • The time they moved the ship on Feathers and Tin Man, and it wasn't where they were told it would be on return -- landed with about six minutes of fuel left, and they could easily have ended up swimming home.
  • Someone closed the only runway with blown tires just as several aircraft showed up to land. We didn't run out, but we came scarily close and but for luck it could easily have gone the other way.
Doesn't happen a lot, but enough to say you can't make that as a blanket statement. OTOH, sometimes a 709 ride isn't enough, and enforcement action is warranted, like if a Cessna pilot chooses not to hop up and look and instead relies on the gauges -- that's "reckless" in my book.
 
Never mind. I told you exactly how it happened. Sorry it doesn't pass your smell tests. The type of operation this occurred on is probably not something for this board. Just thought someone might have a quick reference for me as far as legal requirements.
 
Unregistered said:
Reporting it to the FAA. The local FSDO. Who else would it be reported to?
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Well, accidents and certain types of incidents must be reported to the NTSB per 49 CFR 830.2 (which is in your FAR/AIM book). OTOH, there is no requirement of any kind to report anything like this to the FSDO or any other FAA office (as long as it's not a commercial operation, where other requirements may be involved).

Reporting it as an unscheduled landing on a road, I guess.
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I've never heard of an "unscheduled landing on a road" report, but if you do report it, keep in mind that the FAA can use anything you say against you in an enfocement or administrative action. Not many people I know would feel compelled to make such a report of their own volition, but at the same time, the concern for safety evinced by such self-reporting might work in your favor in any decision they make about it.

Everyone here understands about visually checking tanks. Unfortunately it was a single point system, and the guage was relied upon. Trust me, airline captains don't visually check their fuel either. They rely on guages. Then if the guage lies to them, and they crash, they take the rap for it. Not saying its right, as this thread clearly demonstrates, but that is how it happened.
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If there really was a material problem with the gauging system, then a SDR or MDR would be appropriate. See http://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/ or ask one of the Airworthiness Inspectors at the FSDO about how to do that. That might be a better way to handle the situation, and might provide the pilot with a viable excuse for what happened.

I'm really not looking for a lecture on safety or anything like that. I didn't run the damn thing out of gas. Just want to know if it is required to be reported so that my friend does the right thing and doesn't end up in WORSE trouble for not reporting something that is required to be reported. I can't find it anywhere.
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I know of no report that is required to be filed in this case other than possibly a MDR or SDR about the malfunctioning fuel gauge.
 
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Unregistered said:
Never mind. I told you exactly how it happened. Sorry it doesn't pass your smell tests. The type of operation this occurred on is probably not something for this board. Just thought someone might have a quick reference for me as far as legal requirements.
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You can get all huffy with everyone here, but I would kindly suggest that you don't bow your back (or your friend doesn't bow his/her back) to the FAA person. A lot of times the first contact you have with a Fed can determine whether they want to pay attention to you or not. BTDT with USDA, EPA, and so on.

Best of luck to you, and may the next lineboy verify your tanks are full. Give him or her a tip, would you? Back in the day, I used to get a dollar for cleaning the windscreen. And you'd be surprised who tipped. The people with the nicest planes weren't the ones that did if you get my drift.
 
I flew DC9's for five years, and don't remember climbing on the wing to visually check my fuel. I used the guages and the fuel ticket. There was a stick you could use if the guages were inop. But I don't remember any visual inspection. But that was a long time ago, they may do things different now. Hell, maybe my FO was climbing on the wings. I always wondered what he was doing out there for so long.
 
tell the FAA that the fuel cap came off in flight.
 
Unregistered said:
I flew DC9's for five years, and don't remember climbing on the wing to visually check my fuel. I used the guages and the fuel ticket. There was a stick you could use if the guages were inop. But I don't remember any visual inspection. But that was a long time ago, they may do things different now. Hell, maybe my FO was climbing on the wings. I always wondered what he was doing out there for so long.
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What was the McDonnell Douglas part number for the DC-9 fueling dipstick? Did it fit in your flight bag? Did your employer provide it, or did you have to buy it from Sporty's? Was it required equipment? If the gauges on the dash read zero, could you depart based on what the dipstick said? Would it depend on whether you read the tanks from the top of the wing or the pressure fueling port underneath?

I know you didn't fly DC-9 for five years because you didn't include a dash number. I'll give you a pass about misspelling "gauges", but seriously...
 
-15F Burt. The stick came out of the bottom of the wing, it was part of the aircraft. Your wife doesn't like you much, I bet.

I guess I just came on here to tell a bunch of lies, anonymously. Why would someone do that?

Thanks to the guys who gave serious answers.
 
Unregistered said:
I guess I just came on here to tell a bunch of lies, anonymously. Why would someone do that?
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For their own amusement at the responses. It happens, and it's been documented. Moderators of sites like this are aware of that, and strive to eliminate such folks, but they are out there.
Thanks to the guys who gave serious answers.
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You're welcome.
 
Unregistered said:
A friend of mine ran out of fuel and landed on a road. We brought him some fuel and the cops blocked off the road so he could take off. Does this need to be reported? And yes, it really was a friend of mine. And there were alot of witnesses.
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I believe I relayed on guard to ORD Center yesterday for your friend if this was in the Long EZ near Kankakee Il ( landed on Route 52). He did a great job staying calm and I'm glad he is OK.


Center will likely fill out a MOR report so expect a call from the FSDO. In addition to NASA call AOPA legal services if you have that before talking to FAA....hope for a warning letter
 
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Old Geek said:
Remind your friend that he can fill out a NASA form.
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That really won't stop the FAA from requiring the pilot to take and pass the ride.

any action that makes the FAA doubt you are making the safe decisions will trigger the FAA into sending you the letter.

running out of fuel pretty much tells the FSDO that you are not a safe pilot.
 
gismo said:
Since it's not "reportable", how would the FSDO find out?
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Ron Levy said:
YouTube, phone call from one of the "lot of witnesses," news report in local press, posts on aviation forums, you name it. You can be sure the cops, being cops, took names and numbers before they let the pilot go, and will be happy to share with the FAA any information they collected.
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Added that for ya! ;)
 
Oh, c'mon Ron, if they move Mom and its not where the brief said it would be how is that the pilots fault - and its not GA. And wheres the Texaco?

Closing an airport because of an accident goes into the 'shlt happens' category and thats not the pilots fault either - thats not 100LL GA either.

running a GA airplane out of gas with no intervening causation that is beyond the pilots control is just stoopid. Mechanicals, yours or someone elses, moving the airport [how often is that problem for guys who run out of fuel?], and closing the airport is not the pilots problem.

Running out because you a) don't verify your fuel load by looking, b) running out because you burned more than was in the tanks due to winds or overflying the range of the airplane and c) not paying attention - those are reasons for a 709 ride. How many times have any of us landed short of the planned destination because of headwinds that caused us to burn more fuel than we had planned? Thats being smart. Running out because you have no real idea how much you have? That falls into the 'here's your sign' category. . .
 
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The 1 time I have had the engine quit due to fuel starvation was on the ground, I selected the fuel selector to "OFF" after shut down, then fueled, and after push back I selected to "BOTH" and started the engine, and started to taxi, then the engine quit. AFter the proper trouble shooting I discovered the fuel selector linkage had failed, and not turned the valve to both, it was still in the "OFF" position.
 
comanchepilot said:
Oh, c'mon Ron, if they move Mom and its not where the brief said it would be how is that the pilots fault
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I'm glad you understood my point -- that there are occasions when events beyond the pilot's control or ability to predict cause a bad result.

- and its not GA. And wheres the Texaco?
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Everyone else had already trapped and they were in the middle of a respot with no way to get another tanker fueled and airborne in time while keeping the landing area clear for our crew.

Closing an airport because of an accident goes into the 'shlt happens' category and thats not the pilots fault either - thats not 100LL GA either.
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Exactly my point.

running a GA airplane out of gas with no intervening causation that is beyond the pilots control is just stoopid.
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I would have to agree. But I'm not the one who made a blanket statement about running out of gas.

Mechanicals, yours or someone elses, moving the airport [how often is that problem for guys who run out of fuel?], and closing the airport is not the pilots problem.
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I would have to disagree that these things are not the pilot's problem (as s/he will have to deal with it) but I would say they are beyond the pilot's control.
 
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