Rudder Advice for a noobie.

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bordman

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bordman
Rudder -Lesson - General Advice for a noob!

My last flight with my instructor we did some slow flight and stall procedures. I am only two hours in so a part of me feels like maybe he was getting me ahead of myself because I totally borked it in regards to the stall training. I just can't grasp my head around the rudders. Both on taxing on the runway and in the air. I feel like when im turning i apply enough rudder but im really focused on the ball. My instructor tells me in time i'll be able to feel the plane but I really can't get my head around how thats going to happen. I really got freaked out with how poorly I handled my first stall attempt and I just feel like I dont have my feet placement correct.

For example when im taxing im so nervous about stopping i have my entire foot on the peddle so my toes are ready on the break. But then when i need to or do a sharper turn I apply to much break or not enough and then I zig zag down the taxi way like a moron. In the air i flat foot the rudder also. I have absolutely no reference as to how my feet should be or any solid advice or tips to work on it. I'm going to bring it up with him because I just feel so awkward with it but was hoping with all the experience on the boards someone can give me a little advice to go into it with.
 
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You get used to it with practice. My feet were not connected to my brain for at least my first 20 hours.

If you feel you need total foot coordination immersion training, find a taildragger and tailwheel instructor.

That'll both speed up the process and scare the crap out of you at the same time. High motivation to learn. ;)

The ball fixation goes away when you realize you can feel the sideways acceleration in your butt.

The rest is all about how much pedal and how fast/hard to push, and the best advice is to figure out just how much is enough and how fast to get it there.

Only way to find out is to go do more of it. :)

You'll get it. As far as placement goes, most folks will recommend heels on the floor and pivot the foot for normal activities, making sure to keep all pressure off the top of the pedal during landings so as not to land with a brake on and blow a tire.

Somewhere along the learning curve you eventually hit a day where you need hard full rudder input and you learn how to not press with the balls of your feet while still having more of your foot on the pedal for the conditions. But not recommended at first.

Different pedals in different aircraft types are different too. Eventually you find them as comfortable and easy to figure out as how far to push your gas pedal or brake pedal in your car.

Your first few attempts to stop a car probably were a little jerky too...
 
I can't recommend any "fits all" advice about foot placement on the rudder or brake pedals, but as far as stalls go, the best way to get an intuitive feel for how to use the rudder there is doing lots of MCA flying. Gives you more time to get a feel for what the airplane needs to stay coordinated when you are that slow. It's not enough to just fly at MCA only to enter a stall- you need to get a feel for changing heading and even climbing and descending at MCA.

Things get a little different when the wing is actually stalled, but staying coordinated when recovering from a stall is a matter of anticipation anyway.
As for taxiing and braking: think ahead, use minimal rudder pedal and brake movement, remember the nosewheel is closer to you than the spinner, and use the throttle to control your speed first, not brakes. Brakes should be thought of as for stopping, not slowing down. Using brakes to steer, unless the airplane doesn't have a steerable third wheel, is usually not necessary when taxiing. Maybe parking, but even then you ought to be able to swing the plane around without standing on one brake. It's all about thinking and looking ahead, and mentally staying ahead of the plane's momentum. If you are having trouble steering smoothly while taxiing, Step 1 to fix that is to just take out some power and slow down. You can learn to taxi faster later, after your feet find their place. If you find yourself touching the brakes during normal taxiing and you are at anything higher than idle rpm, you are just making it harder for yourself.
 
Become one with the plane Grasshopper. ;)

2 hours? Don't worry about it. It will come with time.


Carry on. :D
 
If you are wearing shoes with a thick sole, like some of the tennis shoes these days, it would make it harder to feel the rudder pressure. With only two hours, though, I think you may be being a little hard on yourself. It will come. Just have patience.
 
My first 4 or 5 hours were in a Piper Cub. This really helped me get used to using my feet, and now even just a little more than 20 hours in (with the rest of the time in a C152), making adjustments with my feet is almost automatic. I found that I got used to it pretty quick, but it takes some getting used to. As you do more exercises, learn to better coordinate turns, and practice taxiing, it gets easier.

Though taxiing for me, on the other hand, is still annoying. I feel like the plane doesn't respond to the rudders, and I find myself on the brakes when I shouldn't be. It's getting better, but it takes a while.
 
Keep your heels on the floor for all operations and move your toes to the brake section of the pedal only when you need them. Practice starting ground turns using rudder only. You should need brakes only when radius is tight or when you want to pivot on a main wheel. It will come with time, so don't get wrapped around the axle.

I find that deck shoes work well for flying, with sufficient sole flex to feel the pedals and smoothly move feet up and down the pedal surface when necessary.
 
wabower said:
Keep your heels on the floor for all operations and move your toes to the brake section of the pedal only when you need them. Practice starting ground turns using rudder only. You should need brakes only when radius is tight or when you want to pivot on a main wheel. It will come with time, so don't get wrapped around the axle.

I find that deck shoes work well for flying, with sufficient sole flex to feel the pedals and smoothly move feet up and down the pedal surface when necessary.
Click to expand...

Good advice...until you start flying your own Mooney. Then your mechanic will yell at you during the annual that you're "driving it like a Cessna!" :D

Relax. It will all come together in the next 38 hours or so.
 
No worries about the Mooney. I can afford better.:D

LDJones said:
Good advice...until you start flying your own Mooney. Then your mechanic will yell at you during the annual that you're "driving it like a Cessna!" :D

Relax. It will all come together in the next 38 hours or so.
Click to expand...
 
You can fix the zig-zag taxi by looking way down the taxiway to where you're going. Don't fixate on looking at the first bit of yellow line you can see over the cowl. Look down the "road" to where you're going, and you'll have a much better time of it and you won't overcorrect as much.
 
rottydaddy said:
. . . there is doing lots of MCA flying. . .
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What is MCA? The only aviation definition I can find is Minimum Crossing Altitude, and that doesn't sound right in this context.

My comment: Slow flight is a great way to learn coordination of ailerons and rudder. Slow flight teaches stall avoidance (which should be the goal rather than stall recovery). But a good CFI will figure out what is best for his or her student.
 
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tinerj said:
What is MCA? The only aviation definition I can find is Minimum Crossing Altitude, and that doesn't sound right in this context.

My comment: Slow flight is a great way to learn coordination of ailerons and rudder. Slow flight teaches stall avoidance (which should be the goal rather than stall recovery). But a good CFI will figure out what is best for his or her student.
Click to expand...

Minimum Controllable Airspeed I believe, which, you stated slow flight later in your post. Bingo!
 
People are very used to the feeling of centrifugal force from being in a car. So people don't find it unnatural when they feel it in the airplane. Once you realize that any of that side-to-side motion of your butt is incorrect, you can just use whatever amount of rudder is required to stop it.

On the ground, try having a little bit of pressure on the bottom of each rudder all the time. That will dampen our your inputs.

In the air with straight ahead stalls, look straight down the cowl as far out as you can. Pick a cloud or something, something really far away. Again just "do what it takes" to keep the nose pointed at it.

Your instructor should have pointers on foot placement.

Remember that airplanes didn't even have brakes for a long time.

Dont worry about it all too much, if you only have a few hours...wait till you have 20 hours and if it is all still an issue id be suprised.
 
MCA is slow flight (minimum controlable airspeed)

bordman, later on have your instructor teach you Dutch Rolls, it will give you greater insight into the relationship between rudder and aileron.
 
Silvaire said:
bordman, later on have your instructor teach you Dutch Rolls, it will give you greater insight into the relationship between rudder and aileron.
Click to expand...

It might be a little early to throw him into a swept wing jet... :stirpot:
 
Ill make it easy for you:

3YKM3.gif


"Dutch roll is caused by an aircraft’s tendency to sideslip slightly when the aircraft yaws. One wing yawing forward in this situation changes the effective span between left and right wings. The wing yawed forward momentarily creates more lift than the one of the other side. The result is that the forward wing rises and starts a rolling movement. The problem is aggravated by the fact that the forward wing, due to its increased lift, also has more drag, pulling that wing back once again and starting an oscillation in the other direction."
 
Read the rest of the articles from the same source where you got that one.

lr60plt said:
Ill make it easy for you:

3YKM3.gif


"Dutch roll is caused by an aircraft’s tendency to sideslip slightly when the aircraft yaws. One wing yawing forward in this situation changes the effective span between left and right wings. The wing yawed forward momentarily creates more lift than the one of the other side. The result is that the forward wing rises and starts a rolling movement. The problem is aggravated by the fact that the forward wing, due to its increased lift, also has more drag, pulling that wing back once again and starting an oscillation in the other direction."
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Keep your heels on the floor for all operations and move your toes to the brake section of the pedal only when you need them. Practice starting ground turns using rudder only. You should need brakes only when radius is tight or when you want to pivot on a main wheel. It will come with time, so don't get wrapped around the axle.

I find that deck shoes work well for flying, with sufficient sole flex to feel the pedals and smoothly move feet up and down the pedal surface when necessary.
Click to expand...
Assuming the OP is male and his foot length is close to a foot long. If female and foot is shorter, move the foot up on the rudder to depress brakes, keep heels down while in the air.
 
wabower said:
Read the rest of the articles from the same source where you got that one.
Click to expand...

You can call it whatever you want...and i guess people do. All your maneuver is...is a coordination / adverse yaw exercise. The term "dutch roll" is something incorrectly thrown around flight schools.
 
Working on stalls your second flight seems a little early to me. But, it is what it is... Bottom line is to be patient and to experiment with it. You'll get it.
Taxiing and landing you should have your heels on the floor and back towards you a little bit if you have big feet. On your next flight before you even start the plane just look at your feet and how they are on the pedals. Move them back and forth and see what's happening.
 
dukeblue219 said:
You can fix the zig-zag taxi by looking way down the taxiway to where you're going. Don't fixate on looking at the first bit of yellow line you can see over the cowl. Look down the "road" to where you're going, and you'll have a much better time of it and you won't overcorrect as much.
Click to expand...
Or just say that you are doing a taxi check of the attitude indicator, directional gyro, and turn coordinator. You can't be too careful. :D
 
Or practicing S-turns for the upcoming Pitts transition!
 
lr60plt said:
You can call it whatever you want...and i guess people do. All your maneuver is...is a coordination / adverse yaw exercise. The term "dutch roll" is something incorrectly thrown around flight schools.
Click to expand...

I agree. I never understood why so many people call it a dutch roll when a dutch roll is a uncoordinated maneuver and the goal of the excersise is coordination.
 
I suppose when something is wrong enough it becomes right...:rolleyes2:
 
Jeanie said:
Working on stalls your second flight seems a little early to me. But, it is what it is... Bottom line is to be patient and to experiment with it. You'll get it.
Taxiing and landing you should have your heels on the floor and back towards you a little bit if you have big feet. On your next flight before you even start the plane just look at your feet and how they are on the pedals. Move them back and forth and see what's happening.
Click to expand...

Good pickup!
 
GCA319 said:
I agree. I never understood why so many people call it a dutch roll when a dutch roll is a uncoordinated maneuver and the goal of the excersise is coordination.
Click to expand...

"Dutch roll" is a mis-applied term that I hate. Everybody has a different idea of what it is - swept wing phenomenon, centered ball coordination exercise vs. nose-on-point uncoordinated exercise...who cares. Just roll the airplane back and forth and learn to the use the rudder properly to keep the ball centered...preferably without having to look at it.
 
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Same as lazy eights.

DPE: "Well, that's one way to do them, but let me show you how I like to see them done. First, you gotta pretend you have a long pencil extending forward from the prop spinner . . . "

RoscoeT said:
"Dutch roll" is a mis-appled term that I hate. Everybody has a different idea of what it is - swept wing phenomenon, centered ball coordination exercise vs. nose-on point uncoordinated exercise...who cares. Just roll the airplane back and forth and learn to the use the rudder properly to keep the ball centered...preferably without having to look at it.
Click to expand...
 
About the taxiing thing....

Taxi SLOWER and you won't feel the pressure to overcontrol like that. Ideally, even in a Cessna with its supertanker-like steering, you should be able to steer most of the time without using any brakes at all. In a Cessna, you have to anticipate turns.

Separately, two hours is a bit early for this sort of thing, but practicing a "falling leaf" (i.e., rudder work during a stall) will help calm the nerves dramatically, as it will teach you that an uncoordinated stall is not going to kill you. Things in a 172 happen pretty slowly. It's a lot easier to learn feel when you aren't sweating bullets.
 
Taxi slowly, with low thrust, so you don't have to brake so much. Use the rudders and if necessary the brakes to guide in taxiing - don't use them to go where you want to go but rather don't let the plane go where you don't want it to go. You'll use less pressure and will apply it earlier. Yes, you have to lead a turn, but when taxiinig straight don't focus on making it go stragiht, rather use gentle, sufficient pressure to keep it from going off in a way you don't want it to go.
The effect of this is you will not overshoot and thus overcorrect and start zig zagging down the runway. You'll tend to correct earlier and with less force. At first, just stop the excursion and then gently bring it back on course if you need to.
If you are an artilleryman, think of this as a creeping barrage not a ladder bracket. :)
 
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Wow lots of posts over night! Thanks everyone!

Some funny posts too, the dutch roll recipe made me chuckle.

MAKG1 said:
About the taxiing thing....

Taxi SLOWER and you won't feel the pressure to overcontrol like that. Ideally, even in a Cessna with its supertanker-like steering, you should be able to steer most of the time without using any brakes at all. In a Cessna, you have to anticipate turns.

Separately, two hours is a bit early for this sort of thing, but practicing a "falling leaf" (i.e., rudder work during a stall) will help calm the nerves dramatically, as it will teach you that an uncoordinated stall is not going to kill you. Things in a 172 happen pretty slowly. It's a lot easier to learn feel when you aren't sweating bullets.
Click to expand...

It did help calm my nerves though as you said. I let out a little squeal of glee when he showed me the first stall. Though that reversed when I almost put us into a spin :yikes:

I think you're right that its a bit early, but I dont have a reference for these things. What do most people work on early on? The slow flight I think was good training and after I borked the stall I was more diligent with my feet during the slow flight training.

As for the taxing, I will slow it down with throttle instead of the breaks. He's letting me make some errors which I like but I'm still a bit to shy with him to ask why I'm going to fast and how to correct it as to not look stupid which is even worse because it just makes me look stupider. Give that another hour or two with him and I promise he will miss me being shy. I'm already coming out of my shell. Thank god he's younger and can deal with my sense of humor... though he hasnt even seen the start of it yet.


Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
What kind of airplane?
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We were in a 152. We are moving to a piper warrior for our next outing and i'll be sticking to that. The 152 is just to cramped for us. While I enjoy my instructors sense of humor with putting his arm around me it was already clear we're a bit to big for the plane. I wanted to do the 172 but its always booked for the times we go out.

Geico266 said:
Become one with the plane Grasshopper. ;)

2 hours? Don't worry about it. It will come with time.


Carry on. :D
Click to expand...

Roger!
 
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I had the problem of taxiing at 1300 rpm and holding down on the breaks until pretty recently. Glad you're catching this early! I heard a story of a guy at PIT who did this on a long taxi and his wheel caught on fire from the friction :eek:
 
Training in a Warrior?

Steering is much more positive, and stalls are so gentle you may need to be told they happened (hint -- watch the nose; the motion is very subtle in these).

If that's what you're planning on, do it NOW. A transition to a Cessna is a lot easier when you already know how to fly. At your stage, you're wasting time in that 152.
 
MAKG1 said:
Training in a Warrior?

Steering is much more positive, and stalls are so gentle you may need to be told they happened (hint -- watch the nose; the motion is very subtle in these).

If that's what you're planning on, do it NOW. A transition to a Cessna is a lot easier when you already know how to fly. At your stage, you're wasting time in that 152.
Click to expand...

I got a bit confused by the "Training in a warrior?"

Is that a bad plane to learn in? I assume the rest is in regards to the warrior and we are switching for my next flight sunday. I don't want to spend another 10 hours in the 152 to switch later, let alone how awful I imagine spending that much time on that terrible little bench would be.

For example I have a thick wallet. Being unable to move said wallet to the from the back pocket to the front on the first flight taught a simple lesson about such a small cramped plane. My butt hurt for the rest of the day.
 
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