Route suggestions from KRDU to KPOU

[jdwatson]

I'm planning to make a trip to KPOU from KRDU in early August. It's summer, so there's a lot to think about. Here's my proposed routing:

KRDU -> LVL mange RIC tappa PXT ENO bessi davys warrd SAX CMK cassh -> KPOU

What do y'all think ? Any suggestions on what altitude ? I'll be in an 172RG with one passenger. We'll be departing at 0900 EDT.

 

[jdwatson]

I got the same routing from DUAT(S). That is one challenge of IFR, they can route just about anyway that want, so you have to stay on top of the fuel. I would hope that they try to keep you as close to your request (or accepted clearance) as they can to avoid that ver situation. I wonder if there are any ATC guidelines on that.

 

[jdwatson]

For those who do X-Cs close to your reserves, what do you do when you get a re-route airborne ? Do you ask ATC to standby while you recalculate your fuel & etc before you accept the clearance ? Or do you read-back & accept, then amend your clearance later on closer to your destination ? Are there other options ?

Most of my travel has been local NC. I've only been re-routed around CLT Class B airpspace that didn't eat into my reserves or even come close. Since I'll be travelling thru DC, Philly and NY I could see a lot of small deviations that add up.

 

[wsuffa]

Chances are you'll get routed up the west side of the DC ADIZ (Martinsburg, maybe?), then across Pennsylvania, and into Poughkeepsie.

If you haven't checked for preferred routes or TEC routings, you should do so in the green book.

 

[grattonja]

If you get routed west, don't be surprised to see one of two things happen. First, you are likely to get a route that takes you to a terminus at HUO, then direct pou. I have had that one going from S37 to POU. Also, sometimes on trips to New England, ATC likes to route you up to Scranton, Lake Henry, Duquene (meant to say Delancey), etc then up to NE. I don't think they will route you that far north for a trip to POU, but if you were going to ALB you would see this routing.

My pet guess is that you will be routed east of the ADIZ, which is a frequent ATC routing. They seem genuinely reluctant, even for IR pilots, to route anywhere even close to the FRZ.

Jim G

 

[John J]

As others have mentioned, the eastern route looks like the one you will get. I would plan out both east and west and see what kind of fuel needs you will have to have to complete the trip. One way to force the routing to the east of the FRZ is to pick fuel stop say for example at MIV or ILG and that will get you to the east side plus give you more fuel reserves to have at the POU end. Knowing that you have lots of fuel on board helps dealing with the unexpected when flying through the NYC area at busy times.

Just a couple of pennies worth

John J

 

[jdwatson]

Thanks all, I'll look it all over tonight. The only preferred route I saw was V93 IGN from the DC metro area. My SE A/FD is at home, so I'll have to wait to see if there's a p-route from RDU to DC metro.

Do y'all typically get just the reverse routings on the way back ? Or is that trip completely different ?

 

[grattonja]

FWIW, on any flight thru DC airspace, I recommend that you sign on to www.dcpilots.org, and request advice. This is an email group, made up of DC and DC area pilots. Lots of folks there know the routings through that airspace well.

Jim G

 

[Ed Guthrie]

KRDU -> LVL mange RIC tappa PXT ENO bessi davys warrd SAX CMK cassh -> KPOU

The route through ENO is probably what you'll receive. After ENO it might very well go DQO MXE ABE LHY direct. New York is unlikely to give you SAX or anything that close to their airspace IFR. Unless it is 2 AM or you are landing at an airport within the Class B it is highly unlikely you would ever be cleared IFR throught the NY Class B.

My personal experience, YMMV.

 

[jdwatson]

The route through ENO is probably what you'll receive. After ENO it might very well go DQO MXE ABE LHY direct. New York is unlikely to give you SAX or anything that close to their airspace IFR. Unless it is 2 AM or you are landing at an airport within the Class B it is highly unlikely you would ever be cleared IFR throught the NY Class B.

My personal experience, YMMV.

Thanks Ed! Fortunately, I have a couple weeks to plan this flight.

 

[Eamon]

File to FRG ( V155 RIC V16 DPK) Go up V16 & cancel at Dixie (Just before the NYC "B")

Then drop down to 1100 ft & go straight up the Hudson past NYC till you see Sing Sing Prison (on the right, just after the Tappen Zee Bridge) By then you are out of the "B" & you can climb to 2 or 3000 ft & POU is 10 min away.

Even if you hit bad WX and cannot cancel, you can divert from FRG to POU as soon as you pass JFK. As long as you are already past JFK, They will give you vectors to CMK & then direct. It is still shorter than going around the other side & if you are lucky & the WX is good, You will have some great sights.


Have fun

 

[jdwatson]

File to FRG ( V155 RIC V16 DPK) Go up V16 & cancel at Dixie (Just before the NYC "B")

Then drop down to 1100 ft & go straight up the Hudson past NYC till you see Sing Sing Prison (on the right, just after the Tappen Zee Bridge) By then you are out of the "B" & you can climb to 2 or 3000 ft & POU is 10 min away.

Even if you hit bad WX and cannot cancel, you can divert from FRG to POU as soon as you pass JFK. As long as you are already past JFK, They will give you vectors to CMK & then direct. It is still shorter than going around the other side & if you are lucky & the WX is good, You will have some great sights.

What a creative way to fly ! It sounds like that you've done this before. Does ATC have any squawks about doing it that way ?

 

[Eamon]

What a creative way to fly ! It sounds like that you've done this before. Does ATC have any squawks about doing it that way ?

I trained at ISP & I was based at FRG, HWV, ISP & 1N2 & I have made the trip from Long Island to VA 100's of times IFR & VFR.
I have been to POU 20 or so times also.
My Musketeer is still up there waiting for me to get back


Yea, Some may say it is cheating....

ATC is YOUR system too. You pay for it as an taxpayer.

I have changed plans many times & ATC has allways been fine with it. It is also your RIGHT as a PIC to request to divert at anytime.

The file to FRG will get you to & past JFK. AFter you pass JFK, the next hand off is your cue.... " NY app N12345 checking in at 4K, I am very sorry, I need to divert to POU. Can i get direct CMK whenever possible"

The only thing I might add is that NYC ATC is fine as long as you listen up & follow directions..... If you miss a call back or stutter on call backs, you will have them POed in a matter of seconds. There is a lots of large traffic in the area & they do a great job of keeping the flow going as long as you are quick of responding to their orders.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

JD, While I have never flown the Route, and I am VFR I have played with a route to wwd from rdu.(I am from Raleigh now living in WWD) Looks like to me you can go up the coast, stop in acy, and continue on to pou staying clear of adiz frz, and class B.

See what you think of:

wiper LVL RIC tappa PXT gared donil ACY panze dixie RBV jeryy SBJ SAX


KD

 

[jdwatson]

KD,
I'll add that one to my list. Thanks ! I used to live in POU. I've been living in RDU-land for 20 years.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

IFR?
Flitestar suggests
RDU V155 MANGE V157 ENO V213 RBV V157 VALRE

The only problem I see within that route is V157 to VALRE. ZBW (Boston ARTCC) is usually shooting guys down to 6,000 and 4,000 on the VALRE2 arrival into HPN and DXR opposite direction (VALRE2 is a south-bound STAR).

from RBV, I'd go V252 COATE V205 HUO. If weather just fair, that brings you to the HUO VOR which is a nice way to intercept the ILS to 6 at Poughkeepsie. That would also take you out of the NY Bravo, and I think would be less busy than going V157 to VALRE.

Hope you have a great flight!

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Yea, Some may say it is cheating....

ATC is YOUR system too. You pay for it as an taxpayer.

I have changed plans many times & ATC has allways been fine with it. It is also your RIGHT as a PIC to request to divert at anytime.

My last IFR flight (homeward from Gaston's) I was informed by ATC that they are now required to request and record the explanation for any destination change made while IFR. "Because I know you'd send me the long way around if I originally filed to POU" should go over really well. I'd probably pay 50% of the fuel bill if I could monitor the frequency.

I need to mark Eamon's suggestion on my kneeboard so I don't forget it and then use it every time just for the laughs.

 

[wsuffa]

My last IFR flight (homeward from Gaston's) I was informed by ATC that they are now required to request and record the explanation for any destination change made while IFR.

That's been the case since 9/11.

Although Eamon's suggestion has merit. There is one approach control where I certainly want to use that line....

 

[grattonja]

Don't know if you have been to POU in a while. If not, it's a nice place. Friendly little Class D. I recommend using Aviation Services rather than the jet Center. While I have not used the Jet Center, Aviation Services is just a good bunch of people to work with. I posted a plug for them on Airnav. They really took care of us when we got stuck there for 2 days back before I had my IR.

Jim G

 

[Eamon]

Working the system ???

My last IFR flight (homeward from Gaston's) I was informed by ATC that they are now required to request and record the explanation for any destination change made while IFR. "Because I know you'd send me the long way around if I originally filed to POU" should go over really well. I'd probably pay 50% of the fuel bill if I could monitor the frequency.

I need to mark Eamon's suggestion on my kneeboard so I don't forget it and then use it every time just for the laughs.

OK, first the main suggestion was to get him IFR as close to the Hudson corridor & then he would cancel & go VFR. The suggestion to divert was not to save time, but just there as a back up in case of bad WX.
I would never suggest that anyone work the system.... I Never (Cough) work the system.

GOOD AFTERNOON NY App, This is N12345, I need to divert to my Alt, POU. My wife was suppose to meet me at FGR but I just got a message from her that she is stuck upstate. Thanks for the help.

OR................................................................

NY App, I have a IFR filed from FRG to POU, I would like to pick it up in the air. I no longer need to stop at FRG, Thank You.


Or

Give me a few min & I can come up with 10 or so more.

 

[jdwatson]

Don't know if you have been to POU in a while. If not, it's a nice place. Friendly little Class D. I recommend using Aviation Services rather than the jet Center. While I have not used the Jet Center, Aviation Services is just a good bunch of people to work with. I posted a plug for them on Airnav. They really took care of us when we got stuck there for 2 days back before I had my IR.

Jim G

Thanks Jim ! We have a choices:

0) Department of Aviation
1) Liberty Aviation Services
2) Richmor Aviation

I haven't looked into the FBO yet, nice to have someone's input. I have family in Poughkeepsie. I was born in Highland Hospital in Beacon. When IBM had a fleet of planes POU was quite a hub of activity.

 

[Eamon]

Re: Working the system ???

Give me a few min & I can come up with 10 or so more.

Oh Now I remember another one that I learned from someone....

Humm What was his first name?? Humm I think it starts with a "E" & Ends with a "D"

Lancaster Tower, This is Mooney 123RR, I know you are landing LOC 8, I would like to request the VOR 31....... Thank you, cleared VOR 31 3RR.....

Oh Tower, Guess what, I just broke out at 1100 ft & I can see Smoketown cleare as day, My what great vis we have just 6 miles away from your airport.. Looks like VFR....Could I have a special VFR landing Smoketown, Thank You.

 

[grattonja]

Re: Working the system ???

Oh Now I remember another one that I learned from someone....

Humm What was his first name?? Humm I think it starts with a "E" & Ends with a "D"

Lancaster Tower, This is Mooney 123RR, I know you are landing LOC 8, I would like to request the VOR 31....... Thank you, cleared VOR 31 3RR.....

Oh Tower, Guess what, I just broke out at 1100 ft & I can see Smoketown cleare as day, My what great vis we have just 6 miles away from your airport.. Looks like VFR....Could I have a special VFR landing Smoketown, Thank You.

Ah, the famous VOR31 approach to Smoketown. Heard of it before. That procedure turn reversal seems to always bring you in right over the airport.

Jim G

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

JD,
Be sure to let us know what route you actually take.......KD

 

[jdwatson]

JD,
Be sure to let us know what route you actually take.......KD

Count on it ! Talking my passenger, she was starting to have concerns with bladder size vs. flight time (~4hrs). To that end, I'm looking at KRDU -> KFDK -> KPOU, with a fuel stop at FDK. I did a temp assignment in Rockville, MD and lived in Frederick for the hitch it'll be neat to fly over the area and maybe the house.

Something like this:
RDU V3 FAK V223 FLUKY FDK
FDK BINNS V39 ETX V162 HUO POU

 

[wsuffa]

Count on it ! Talking my passenger, she was starting to have concerns with bladder size vs. flight time (~4hrs). To that end, I'm looking at KRDU -> KFDK -> KPOU, with a fuel stop at FDK. I did a temp assignment in Rockville, MD and lived in Frederick for the hitch it'll be neat to fly over the area and maybe the house.

Something like this:
RDU V3 FAK V223 FLUKY FDK
FDK BINNS V39 ETX V162 HUO POU

FLUKY -> FDK takes you through the ADIZ - across the arrival/departure corridors for Dulles and Manassas - and very close to the FRZ. It would be too close for my comfort If you're IFR, chances are that you will be sent up over Martinsburg, then over to Frederick.

Rockville is inside the ADIZ, any chance of flying over the area/house would most likely only be possible if you use Gaithersburg.

Just my $0.02

 

[jdwatson]

FLUKY -> FDK takes you through the ADIZ - across the arrival/departure corridors for Dulles and Manassas - and very close to the FRZ. It would be too close for my comfort If you're IFR, chances are that you will be sent up over Martinsburg, then over to Frederick.

Rockville is inside the ADIZ, any chance of flying over the area/house would most likely only be possible if you use Gaithersburg.

Just my $0.02

The AOPA Planner suggested that route. I worked in Rockville, but lived in Frederick 5sm north of Point of Rocks and 3sm east of Jefferson. Kind of between the BICAG waypoint for KJYO and the SUSII for KFDK.

I see your point about FLUKY. I wonder why the Planner didn't suggest V3 LURAY HOAGE KFDK, that certainly would make sense. Keeps me out of ADIZ but not all the way north to Martinsburg, WVa. It's not the most efficient, but at least GA will be out of the ADIZ and out of the media. I'm sure there are 1000s of GA flight thru the ADIZ everyday that we *don't* hear about.

 

[wsuffa]

The AOPA Planner suggested that route. I worked in Rockville, but lived in Frederick 5sm north of Point of Rocks and 3sm east of Jefferson. Kind of between the BICAG waypoint for KJYO and the SUSII for KFDK.

I see your point about FLUKY. I wonder why the Planner didn't suggest V3 LURAY HOAGE KFDK, that certainly would make sense. Keeps me out of ADIZ but not all the way north to Martinsburg, WVa. It's not the most efficient, but at least GA will be out of the ADIZ and out of the media. I'm sure there are 1000s of GA flight thru the ADIZ everyday that we *don't* hear about.

JDW,

Even before the ADIZ, ATC had a tendency to route GA IFR traffic up the "great western bypass" (i.e. over MRB VOR). IIRC, MRB is a published transition to the IAF for one or two of the approaches at FDK. Keeping you out of the ADIZ is an added bonus.

The problem is Dulles. There are two north-south runways at Dulles, meaning the arrival/departure corridors are north/south with the pattern & turns both east and west of the airport. There is also an east-west runway at Dulles that's often used for landing from the west, which pushes the arrival corridor further west.

What usually happens is that ATC keeps you well clear, takes you up to MRB, then brings you down low under the arrivals on the N. Side of Dulles, and over to Frederick.

You MIGHT get lucky and get the corner cut - I've done that VFR staying well clear of the ADIZ.

Gosh, I remember a columnist for a major flying magazine complaining about that routing, oh 8-10 years ago....

 

[grattonja]

Count on it ! Talking my passenger, she was starting to have concerns with bladder size vs. flight time (~4hrs). To that end, I'm looking at KRDU -> KFDK -> KPOU, with a fuel stop at FDK. I did a temp assignment in Rockville, MD and lived in Frederick for the hitch it'll be neat to fly over the area and maybe the house.

Something like this:
RDU V3 FAK V223 FLUKY FDK
FDK BINNS V39 ETX V162 HUO POU

I can't speak to the routing before V39, but, IME, V39 ETX V162 HUO is a very likely routing. I think they will give that one to you. I have seen that part of that one myself out of S37.

Jim G

 

[wsuffa]

I see your point about FLUKY. I wonder why the Planner didn't suggest V3 LURAY HOAGE KFDK, that certainly would make sense.

HOAGE is a fix on the MANNE4 arrival at DCA.

 

[jdwatson]

HOAGE is a fix on the MANNE4 arrival at DCA.

Yes! JeppView has it listed as "combined intersection & RNAV Waypoint, Low Airway Intersection". I'll be sure to keep track of the routings I get for further review here.

Bill, are you indicating a problem with HOAGE ? It's on the airway, so they have to be used to traffic thru that area. I can't make everyone happy... well, I guess I could and take my truck to POU instead. ;-)

 

[jdwatson]

I can't speak to the routing before V39, but, IME, V39 ETX V162 HUO is a very likely routing. I think they will give that one to you. I have seen that part of that one myself out of S37.

Jim G

I looked into that routing from your earlier posting. Thanks !

 

[wsuffa]

Yes! JeppView has it listed as "combined intersection & RNAV Waypoint, Low Airway Intersection". I'll be sure to keep track of the routings I get for further review here.

Bill, are you indicating a problem with HOAGE ? It's on the airway, so they have to be used to traffic thru that area. I can't make everyone happy... well, I guess I could and take my truck to POU instead. ;-)

Nope. I'd file it over HOAGE then D-> KFDK, but I'd be prepared for a route over MRB. The route over MRB would keep you on the airway. You never know unless you ask.

Fly it, but be prepared to stay on the airway....

 

[jdwatson]

Nope. I'd file it over HOAGE then D-> KFDK, but I'd be prepared for a route over MRB. The route over MRB would keep you on the airway. You never know unless you ask.

Fly it, but be prepared to stay on the airway....

That was my plan. MRB isn't that far out of the way but cutting the corner gets my Bride to a restroom and a beverage sooner. I was taught to keep the airways in the back of my mind, cuz if things go to heck that's where ATC is going to put us. So, I track the VOR behind and ahead of me even if I'm /G using GPS that way if they put me back on airways there's not a mad dash of knob-twisting to get there.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

That was my plan. MRB isn't that far out of the way but cutting the corner gets my Bride to a restroom and a beverage sooner. I was taught to keep the airways in the back of my mind, cuz if things go to heck that's where ATC is going to put us. So, I track the VOR behind and ahead of me even if I'm /G using GPS that way if they put me back on airways there's not a mad dash of knob-twisting to get there.

JD, if you dont mind asking..who your instrument instructor was/is?
I will be relocating to the triangle area this year. I want to begin my ir trainiing then. (hopefully I will be an aircraft owner by then).DO you recommend him/her? Iask only because of some your post tell me this is a quality instructor. Regards........KD

 

[jdwatson]

JD, if you dont mind asking..who your instrument instructor was/is?
I will be relocating to the triangle area this year. I want to begin my ir trainiing then. (hopefully I will be an aircraft owner by then).DO you recommend him/her? Iask only because of some your post tell me this is a quality instructor. Regards........KD

Mat Waugh is my CFI-I and aviation mentor. I highly recommend him. He works thru FlightGest where he's the Chief Pilot. Great school, excellent people.

 

[jdwatson]

Ok Kids...
I filed KRDU HARVY V3 FAK HOAGE KFDK. At RDU, I got RALEIGH SIX departure, cleared as filed. Woohoo ! Crossing into VA, I got re-routed LURAY V143 MRB V156 EMI. Into POU I filed KFDK BINNS LRP ETX FJC HUO KPOU. I got, EMI LRP V93 LHY V408 V483 FLIPS KPOU. Then in the air past LRP, I got V93 LHY V408 FILPS KPOU. In the end, the weather changed everything. We got chased by a line of storms between LRP & LHY. ATC was very accomodating, we basically kept deviating and changing altitudes so that everyone could find a place on the ground quickly. By the time I got my turn I was already over KSWF making 157kts GS (in a 172RG), so I took a chance to continue to KPOU. At that speed it was only going to be another 2 minutes... We landed on RWY 24, just as we got the plane tucked away and the luggage into the pilot's lounge the squall line hit. Whew !

Let me know if y'all want to see the routings for the return trip. Overall, 10.1 hours up and back. 1.6 actual and 1 instrument approach. Beats 20 hours on the road fighting the same weather.

 

[wsuffa]

By my figuring, that routing added 50+ miles on the RDU-FDK segment, and 35-40 miles on the FDK-POU segment. The great western route.

Probably added 1/2 hour to the northbound trip.

"Keep out of our airspace, and stay out!"

I am surprised they sent you all the way to EMI, though.

 

[grattonja]

The segments up around Lake Henry are not my favorites, as I am in a skyhawk. Not much margin for error if the fan up front stops turning. Not that many places to put down. I much prefer the southern route. But my feeling is that it will not be given all that often.

I would certainly like to see what they did/do with you on the return. We learn from each other's experiences, after all.

Thanks for updating us.

Jim G

 

[jdwatson]

Ok, the way back...

KPOU HUO V162 ETX V39 LRP EMI KFDK. My clearance got lost somehow, so I re-filed with FSS on the taxiway. I got Dutchess Four departure, as filed. I actually got to fly this one without a re-route.

Filed KFDK MRB V3 LURAY FAK, I got EMI MRB then as filed. As soon as I got to 2000' MSL they turned me to MRB then onto V3. Potomac Approach was painting weather so they routed me Casanova (CSN), then Flatrock (FAK). I threaded my way at 8000' around the tops of CBs. When we got to CSN, they gave us DIRECT RDU. Shaved 20-30 minutes off the return trip.

We were wheels up at 9:40am and touched down at RDU at 3:15pm. I'm at home sipping a glass of fine wine already. Sweet day indeed.

The 172RG has a stormscope tied into the Garmin 530. Very nice indeed. I was able to avoid the nasty stuff.